Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Non-response. No detour granted. And its worth noting that, as far as attempt at diversion go, this one was really pathetic.

Match point - Wonk.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

If by puppet you mean we had a hand in picking him, our troops are necessary for his government's survival and he can't do too much we disagree with, then he is a puppet. But he is a puppet of the US government, not Bush. If Kerry wins the Iraq government will still be as much his puppet for the forseeable future. Kerry ridiculed someone/something he'll need.

What makes it worse is that he didn't have to attack Allawi, he could have said something Allawi-neutral which still makes his point. I'm willing to bet he would have been better off if he had. In the debates he will claim to have great diplomatic chops. If I were Bush the attacks on the UK/Australia and now this would be my first response to that horseshit. We'll see.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Suddenly the UN carries the imprimatur of legitimacy? Oh, how the neo-cons have fallen!

More seriously, I don't really get your point. The choice of Allawi came out of the Iraqi governing council, to the apparent surprise of everyone outside of it. The US' agreeing to go along with it, in light of the fact that we've got 100k soldiers in country and the keys to the joint, strikes me as important. If we weren't very comfortable with Allawi, I think we'd have said so.

The UN's acquescence came in the context where not only were they not on the field, they're hardly even on the sidelines. I'm not sure they were even in the stadium. Their agreement was nice and all, but let's not pretend that they had either significant involvement in, or impact on, the outcome.

I don't disagree. He could've made his point less graphically.

But what's getting my back up is the insistence by those on this board that it's treasonous to say anything negative surrounding his visit. That's horseshit. If you guys believe that's the case, then don't invite the comments by using the man as a goddamn GOP campaign prop.

Joe Biden, BTW, was similarly upset during the Sunday talk show circuit. Here on FNC:

• Look, this guy's [Allawi's] in a tough, tough, tough spot. John Kerry wasn't criticizing him. John Kerry was pointing out — why is it you guys — I mean, here the president of the United States of America stands up there and sends this signal to the entire world that our intelligence community isn't worth a damn, all it does is guess. And you guys say when he says, "Well, he really meant to say estimate," you say, "well, OK."
  
  Kerry says something, you know what he means, and you make it sound like he's indicting Allawi. That's malarkey, pure malarkey. He wasn't indicting Allawi. He was saying, "Level with the American people, Mr. President, for god's sake.
  
  And the last thing I want to make this point: I find the way the opposition is dealing with this is really, really dangerous. They're telling everybody that basically if Kerry becomes president of the United States, he's not going to stick with Iraq.
  
  I personally was authorized by Kerry in front of all my colleagues to say the first thing in a private meeting, I said, "Mr. President, you know me." And he said, "Yes, I do." I said, "I guarantee you that John Kerry as president — you will continue to have the full support of the United States of America in order to be able to establish a representative republic. He said, "Thank you, and I know it."

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

This is hardly scientific, but I recall in the ramp up to Gulf II, the folks brandishing the most rigid hard-ons for trampling Iraq were the people I'd least want getting my back in a bar fight. I would routinely ask "Why the hatred for Iraq? Even pre-Gulf I, the nation had done nothing to the US. It attacked Kuwait and we retaliated from the "world police" perspective. Why all the vitriol now?" They'd call me a fucking liberal. I'd usually say "Well, no... I agree with trying to create democracy over there and moving the war from our shores, but I don't really have any reason to hate Iraq or even its leaders." Then they'd tell me about how Saddam put people in woodchippers. I'd usually smile and say "Well, he only did that AFTER we stopped supporting him against Iran, right? You are aware that we were his piggy bank for a healthy portion of his rule, right?" Usually, the reply to that was for the opponent to throw his hands in the air and call me a "goddamned liberal", despite the fact that I was a registered Republican.

Beating the right in any argument is like beating your wife in an argument. Even when you win, you lose. When facts don't work for them, they jump to policy; when policy fails them, they leap to emotion/patriotism. Its like negotiating with a five year old. All they know is that they want what they want, and they don't care how intellectually dishonest they look in the process of demanding it. Its really quite brilliant - just like the 10 year old demanding the new video game at the mall can wear his parents down, so does the right wing wear down anyone who disagrees with it.

But being an effective idiot makes you no less an idiot.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Beeyoutefull. I am the Right. And I note that almost every post you've made here in the past week has included some form of the brilliant intellectual argument that "only an idiot wouldn't agree blah blah blah".

Not that I have a long memory or anything. What were you just saying about 10 year olds and idiots in making your case about how the Right argues like children?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Oh, hanging breaking ball...

"But he is a puppet of the US government, not Bush."

I see the distinction, and the difference is?

"If Kerry wins the Iraq government will still be as much his puppet for the forseeable future. Kerry ridiculed someone/something he'll need."

The idea of a puppet is that you control the puppet, entirely. Allawi has no leverage.

"What makes it worse is that he didn't have to attack Allawi, he could have said something Allawi-neutral which still makes his point."

Of course, so everyone could again whipsaw him for making obtuse comments. Damned if he does...

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

1) You're the only one on here saying the criticism was "unpatriotic". The truth of the matter is that the comments were wholly irresponsible and politically unjustifiable.

2) What the people say in the streets and what the would-be leader of the US say and do are 2 separate things. If you see no distinction, you're insane.

3) To argue the truth is shitty and low? As you may say, so fucking what?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

I think the left and the populists need to get their hands dirty. I'm not above getting into the dirt - the difference is I'm backing my arguments with substance. The right can't articulate any reason for the fury about Iraq other than the need for people to be stupidly unified in anger in order to move into any war. We were cheerlead into a "war" based on lies, and "the right" was the chief instigator of the mob mentality behind it all. I may get on board for other reasons, but I'm going to let you know just how fucking stupidly transparant your whole charade is. Somebody needs to keep the right honest. Consider me your alluy who thinks you're a horse's ass. But keep doing what you're doing - I like my tax break. Just don't expect my kid in your next idiot war. I'll have him mailed to Ireland before I'll play that fucking game.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

But he's our puppet? Right, got it.


As noted elsewhere, this was the most important thing that Biden said. He's trying to take the inside track on the Sec'y of State appointment.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Cite please.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

I will leave it to those more macroeconically inclined than me to flesh this out, but I would suggest you consider the long-term impact of the runaway deficit on your financial self-interest. I suspect you will end up losing far more than the few bucks you're saving from the novelty tax cuts.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Say you've inherited a car. Sure, you didn't pick it out, but you've got the keys there in your hand.

Just because you didn't pick it off of the lot, does that make it any less yours?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

I will concede this if you first concede that trotting out Allawi and having him mouth administration talking points for the benefit of W's reelection campaign was irresponsible and politically unjustifiable.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

False choice, lizard. In the longer term, Sebby will be fabulously wealthy and will have the ability to sneeze at the higher future tax burden and/or eroded social benefit system, even if the net present value of those costs exceeds the tax cuts he gets today.*

This belief, such as it is, resides at the core of Bushian fiscal policy and domestic re-election strategy.

Gattigap

* Or, we'll all be dead. Though possibly counter to the short term planks of Bushian strategy (vote for me or you'll be dead tomorrow), this corollary to Bushian policy and strategy has actually been forwarded by the President himself. Bonus!

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Being dead tomorrow would make Bush's tax cuts highly successful. So, in order to ensure Bush's fiscal legacy, vote for Kerry so we'll all be dead and won't have to deal with the shitty long-term effects of Bush's fiscal policy. Well done.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

The thing is, I agree with you about the fury thing. But I can't help it that the only people who color your vision of the "Right" are the drunks left behind when the Right left the legacy of the dying northern cities to the democrats and other leftists. The "Right" is not an angry drunk in the bar or the guy doing a line off your ass. And the "Right" is not McNaRummy or Father Ashcroft.

The Right is not Racist, Sexist, or anti-immigration. The Right is law-abiding, in favor of limited (very limited) government, and hates unfairness and inefficiency. The Right does not externalize costs onto other people's children or other neighborhoods. You might think you know the Right, but all you are describing is the guy getting drunk next to you at the bar.

People like to cast themselves as part of my Right to shield their hateful views under the cloak of my dignity (see e.g., Pat Buchanan, Bill O'Reilly). And stupid people like to cast me out of the Right, in order to present a skewed picture of the Right as a drunk in a bar.

Than again, if you are invoking an image of an imaginary child being drafted to fight someone else's war, am I thinking too little of you in believing that your characterization of the "Right" was formed in a bar in a northern city?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

hello's Right: The Party of One.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Just as long as I'm not in Sebby's drug-coma dreams.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

the party of two- he's wrong about this one- it's me!

The "Right" is not an angry drunk in the bar

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Hahahahahahahahaha!

Let's talk environmental policy. Environmental corporate externalities, e.g. pollution, are bourne by society as a whole. By other people's children. In other neighborhoods. Even in other countries. Too bad The Right doesn't include that in it's cost structure, even though it can be quanitfied. The lowered regulatory standards under Bush externalize a HUGE cost. A cost that will have to be paid for when the externalities eventually visibly and horribly materialize via cancer, lung disease and clean-up costs.

But cancer isn't money, so this cost isn't included. And increased environmental standards hinder economic growth, right? Who gives a shit if my kid or your kid pays for it later when he gets lukemia when growth increased by 7% instead of 5% b/c the utility pollution regulations were relaxed.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Can you please cite one "relaxed standard" that goes to anything where there is evidence of harm?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Bird in the hand is worth two in the... God, using that cliche is horrible here.

I'm amused by people who live their lives like tomorrow is promised to them. I'll take that cash now. I'll deal with the problems of 40 years from now 40 years from now.

I'm not surprised people on this board find my attitude about these things naively cavalier. A lot of you are a bunch of micromanaging super-planners. Process the data, make sure all contingencies are planned for, make the sensible decision, be safe, make sure your acorns are there for winter.

Suck my cock. Ever hit the brakes at 80 and realized you were on black ice? Ever had a biopsy come back inconclusive? Ever seen someone young close to you die of something really fucked up and totally unpredictable? Life's terminal and money's easy to come by. I need a healthy amount to live as I like, but so far, I've struggled and managed. I may never have a Rolls, but shit's never going to be bad if you're willing to work and have a brain. Dem , GOP, whig, whatever... won't mean a rats ass to me in the end anyway, so why not take the free dinners now?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

So you're beginning with the assumption that increased pollution isn't harmful, and that I must convince you otherwise? Are you R.J. Reynolds?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

I like this post, Sebby, though FWIW my post wasn't directed at you in particular, but at the increasingly indefensibility of Bushian fiscal policy.

Enjoy the dinner.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

We covered this in the old days on the Infirm politics boards. The not_Right (is that you?) used scare tactics to ban DDT. Now (insert some huge number) of children die every year because of mosquito-borne diseases.

Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCB's)? I dare you to look for any study that reasonably demonstrates they are dangerous.

You want to know the greatest environmental impact in this country? Suburbs are the greatest environmental impact.

You want to know why suburbs exist? Because the Democrats have completely fucked up almost every one of America's major cities. Look around you in Chicago. Who's the boogeyman in your wasteland? Daley? Mell? Blagoyevich? Madigan?

(lowering his voice) Obviously this is a much bigger topic, and I'll be happy to discuss it on a separate thread any time here.

Hello

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

As you typed these words, your pulse increased. You exhaled more Carbon dioxide. You increased pollution.

So yes, merely saying pollution increased is meaningless unless you show what you mean. Are you speaking of the arsenic levels? Do you have any specifics, or are you flying on hyperbole here?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

S-L-O-W D-O-W-N!!!

Sebby Jr. needs you to be around when they come and try and draft him.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

If you mean Arafat, then I personally believe he is a terrorist thug. However, he at least had, until recently, the power to control people's actions in a general sense. He no longer has that power, so he no longer has any claim to particular attention.

Since you asked.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

My guess is either flouridation of urban water supplies or school desegregation.

Real estate developers and highway contractors may also play a role.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Don't you have this ass-backwards? Allawi is about as useful as tits on a bull. And his appearance in the US was pure electioneering. Unless he had to come to the home office to sign for his paycheck.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

There are lies, there are damned lies, and there are projections.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

1. Actually, you have said several times that it was unpatriotic. You also quoted the Kristol piece which said the same thing. The truth of the matter is that the comments were perfectly valid and justifiable in the face of Bush's use of Allawi as a dog and pony show.

2. The biggest problem with the American political process is that we can't field candidates any more who are capable of calling something dogshit as they're scraping it off their shoes. It's refreshing to see someone actually do it somewhere other than either West Wing or Chuck Norris movies.

3. If you lie down with dogs...

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

I've explained this far too many times to do it again. If anyone is voting for Bush because they think it's the right thing for their bank balance, they're just proving yet again that the one thing this nation needs to cure all its financial woes is an excise tax on stupidity.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Done a line off my ass? WTF?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with the truth of the above. The problem is you wrote it to compliment Kerry. I really don't see how your view could be any more different than the views of most Bush supporters here, and the majority of Americans. I mean seriously wonk, you'd be hard pressed to find many people who'd say Kerry takes clear stands and defends his position.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Relaxing standards on air quality, has been a consistent part of the Republican agenda since the Reagan Administration. Simply because they've been unsuccessful in achieving a goal does not mean they don't have it.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

What do I have to do with this?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

But surprisingly, very few children are now born without limbs

CDC has done at least three or them. One was done by the National Cancer Institute. Either Northwestern or U of Chicago did one based on the PCBs dumped in Waukegan harbor. It hasn't been published yet, because it's still ongoing. All of them, including the ongoing one, have found a strong correlation between PCBs and cancer.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Your theory is based on projections, which are based on statistics, which are tabulated by people who are not immune to error and are sometimes even biased. Economic projections are like epidemiological models - their predictive value is not the sort of thing you'd ever take to the bank.

According to statistics, I'm dead already of lung disease, kidney cancer, cirrhosis and heart issue. I'm not saying predictions don't have value - I'm just saying that screaming chicken little based on a pile of projected numbers is foolish. I ain't handing free money back because Robert Rubin's great big juicy brain says I should. If I'm wrong and reckless, whatever... won't be the first time and won't be the last.