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Hank Chinaski 12-09-2004 09:34 PM

death and taxes
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
why it's OK to borrow government money that taxpayers in the future are going to have to pay taxes to repay (with interest) but it's not OK to collect taxes now to pay for the same thing?
Two words: Iraqui Oil

Skeks in the city 12-09-2004 11:30 PM

Social Insecurity
 
I love thinking of social security and medicare as having funds. Here're nice facts from the CBO: 2004 spending on Medicare, social security and interest on federal debt is $1.47 trillion;
2015 spending on those things is projected to be $2.51 trillion.

The US can't possibly allow the $1 billion increase push the US' $500 billion deficits to $1.5 trillion deficits without horrendous inflation. It won't matter whether the deficit is due to issuing new debt or selling old debt that was part of the social security "fund" so the US will have to react by a combination of cutting benefits and increasing taxes.

Adder 12-10-2004 09:37 AM

smoke & mirrors
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
While privatization isn't a bail-out. No one thinks that. And people certainly think that privatization will allow people to earn greater returns, but the crucial point is that in a world where the returns are great enough to make up for the problems with Social Security, the economic growth was also probably robust enough that Social Security doesn't need to be saved.
I don't see how your last sentence is relevant unless you see privatization as a bail out. In other words, privatization might be good even if there is no no need to save anything.


Quote:

In your last paragraph, you seem to be buying into the assumption that historic returns will be matched in coming decades. This is likely not true, for the reasons Drum discusses.
Perhaps I will need to go back and actually read what you are referring to, but I am highly skeptical of anyone who believes they can predict what the market will do, especially if they are predicting that things will be susbtantially different than they have been in the past.

Adder 12-10-2004 09:49 AM

Social Insecurity
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Skeks in the city
I love thinking of social security and medicare as having funds. Here're nice facts from the CBO: 2004 spending on Medicare, social security and interest on federal debt is $1.47 trillion;
2015 spending on those things is projected to be $2.51 trillion.

The US can't possibly allow the $1 billion increase push the US' $500 billion deficits to $1.5 trillion deficits without horrendous inflation. It won't matter whether the deficit is due to issuing new debt or selling old debt that was part of the social security "fund" so the US will have to react by a combination of cutting benefits and increasing taxes.
I think you are missing a few factors that make your numbers imprecise, but I take your point.

andViolins 12-10-2004 10:02 AM

tang
 
I'm no scientist, but is it really that hard to keep track of how much food, or lack of food, one may have on one's international space station?

aV

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 10:13 AM

tang
 
Quote:

Originally posted by andViolins
I'm no scientist, but is it really that hard to keep track of how much food, or lack of food, one may have on one's international space station?

aV
though I don't know how they do that, I can imagine ways to do it.

ilikenewsocks 12-10-2004 11:16 AM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Soldier's tough question for Rummy was a reporter's plant, says CNN

I'm so discouraged by this. What have the media come to? I think I'll go home and watch a little Dan Rather for comfort.

baltassoc 12-10-2004 11:28 AM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ilikenewsocks
Soldier's tough question for Rummy was a reporter's plant, says CNN

I'm so discouraged by this. What have the media come to? I think I'll go home and watch a little Dan Rather for comfort.
Was the applause by a few thousand other soldiers also planted?

Replaced_Texan 12-10-2004 11:42 AM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ilikenewsocks
Soldier's tough question for Rummy was a reporter's plant, says CNN

I'm so discouraged by this. What have the media come to? I think I'll go home and watch a little Dan Rather for comfort.
The soldier's girlfriend told NPR this morning that she doesn't think the question was planted because they'd talked about the questions he might ask the night before the event.

Nashville and Tennessee are behind him.

http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=4212183

SlaveNoMore 12-10-2004 12:34 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Replaced_Texan
The soldier's girlfriend told NPR this morning that she doesn't think the question was planted because they'd talked about the questions he might ask the night before the event.

Nashville and Tennessee are behind him.

http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=4212183
Who cares. So an embed gave the grunt a few good questions.

It was good for troop morale. Rummy gave a quick and honest response* Win - win all around for everyone.

Somehow, I doubt enlisteds in other countries get to speak with the head honcho like that.


* Read his full response. Not his edited soundbite

SlaveNoMore 12-10-2004 01:00 PM

CBS Politcal News Chief calls for regulation of Blogs.

Hmm. I guess those suits at CBS are still steaming that the blogosphere busted Rather and Mapes as the partisan hacks that they really are?

Quote:

Blogs: New Medium, Old Politics
NEW YORK, Dec. 8, 2004

By David Paul Kuhn,
CBSNews.com chief political writer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Internet blogs are providing a new and unregulated medium for politically motivated attacks. With the same First Amendment protections as newspapers, blogs are increasingly gaining influence.

While many are must-reads for political junkies, are some Internet blogs also being used as proxies for campaigns? In the nation’s hottest Senate race, this past year, the answer was yes.

Little over a month ago, the first Senate party leader in 52 years was ousted when South Dakota Republican John Thune defeated top Senate Democrat Tom Daschle. While more than $40 million was spent in the race, saturating the airwaves with advertising, a potentially more intriguing front was also opened.

The two leading South Dakota blogs – websites full of informal analysis, opinions and links – were authored by paid advisers to Thune’s campaign.

The Sioux Falls Argus Leader and the National Journal first cited Federal Election Commission documents showing that Jon Lauck, of Daschle v Thune, and Jason Van Beek, of South Dakota Politics, were advisers to the Thune campaign.

The documents, also obtained by CBS News, show that in June and October the Thune campaign paid Lauck $27,000 and Van Beek $8,000. Lauck had also worked on Thune’s 2002 congressional race.

Both blogs favored Thune, but neither gave any disclaimer during the election that the authors were on the payroll of the Republican candidate.

No laws have apparently been broken. Case precedent on political speech as it pertains to blogs does not exist. But where journalists' careers may be broken on ethics violations, bloggers are writing in the Wild West of cyberspace. There remains no code of ethics, or even an employer, to enforce any standard.

At minimum, the role of blogs in the Daschle-Thune race is a telling harbinger for 2006 and 2008. Some blogs could become new vehicles for the old political dirty tricks.

Like all media, blogs hold the potential for abuse. Experts point out that blogs' unregulated status makes them particularly attractive outlets for political attack.

“The question is: What are the appropriate regulations on the Internet?" asked Kathleen Jamieson, an expert on political communication and dean of the Annenberg School for Communications. “It’s evolved into an area that we need to do more thinking about it.

“If you put out flyers, you have to disclaim it, you have to represent who you are,” Jamieson said. “If you put out an ad you have to put a disclaimer on it. But we don’t have those sorts of regulations for political content, that is campaign-financed on the Internet.”

First Amendment attorney Kevin Goldberg called blogs “definitely new territory.”

“[The question is] whether blogs are analogous to a sole person campaigning or whether they are very much a media publication, which is essentially akin to an online newspaper,” said Goldberg, who is the legal counsel to the American Society of Newspaper Editors.

“Ultimately, I think, the decision will have to come down to whether the public will be allowed to decide whether bloggers are credible or whether some regulation needs to occur.”

Generally, the Supreme Court has ruled that restrictions on political advocacy by corporations and unions does not apply to media or individuals. The reasoning has been that media competition insures legitimacy. This has historically been the argument against monopolies in media ownership.

Hypothetically, if The Washington Post discovered that The New York Times had a reporter being paid by the Bush campaign it would report it. If proven, the suspect reporter would be fired and likely never work in mainstream journalism again. Hence, the courts have been satisfied with the industry’s ability to regulate itself.

The affiliations and identities of bloggers are not always apparent. Take writer Duncan Black, who blogged under the name Atrios. His was a popular liberal blog. During part of the period he was blogging, Black was a senior fellow at a liberal media watchdog group, Media Matters for America. Critics in the blogosphere said this fact wasn't fairly disclosed.

“People are pretty smart in assuming that if a blog is making a case on one side that it’s partisan,” Jamieson said. “The problem is when a blog pretends to hold neutrality but is actually partisan.”

That is not a legal problem, however, but one of ethics. Black eventually claimed credit for his blog and his affiliation with Media Matters. Fellow bloggers heavily publicized his political connections. And Black continued blogging.

Defenders of Black point out that unlike the South Dakota blogs, he was not working on behalf of a campaign. And clearly, absent blog ethical guidelines, what Black did was not that different than many others.

“He is perfectly free to write the blog. You can criticize him for it but he had a perfect Constitutional right to do what he did,” said Eugene Volokh, who teaches free speech law at UCLA Law School and authors his own blog, the Volokh Conspiracy.

“People are free to say whatever they want to say and not reveal any financial inducements and not reveal in whose pay they are,” Volokh added. “Now there is an exception for speech that urges the election or defeat of a particular candidate.” But where this exception relates to Internet blogs is unclear.

Beginning next year, the F.E.C. will institute new rules on the restricted uses of the Internet as it relates to political speech.

“I think those questions are going to have to be asked and answered,” said Lillian BeVier, a First Amendment expert at the University of Virginia. “It’s going to be an issue and it should be an issue.”

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 02:00 PM

smoke & mirrors
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Adder
I don't see how your last sentence is relevant unless you see privatization as a bail out. In other words, privatization might be good even if there is no no need to save anything.
Social Security is an intergenerational transfer, or, if you like, a Ponzi Scheme. Payments to the old are funded by the young, with the promise that when the young grow old, they too will be taken care of. "Privatization" is something completely different -- the notion that this compact should be replaced with a system in which the young are permitted or compelled to invest for themselves. So the fundamental problem is that if we adopt "privatization," who pays for the old until today's young are old? Whether or not "privatization" is "good," you have this (huge) problem.

Quote:

Perhaps I will need to go back and actually read what you are referring to, but I am highly skeptical of anyone who believes they can predict what the market will do, especially if they are predicting that things will be susbtantially different than they have been in the past.
Then you should be "highly skeptical" about the claims made by privatization advocates that investments in the market will earn 6% or 7%. But obviously there is a connection between the performance of the stock market and the performance of the larger economy, and if the privatization advocates are claiming that the latter will suffer in coming decades, as a result of demographic factors, it's hard to see how they could think that returns in the market will keep ripping along at past rates.

The answer is, of course, that they don't -- they are wedded to privatization for ideological and venal reasons, not because they believe in these numbers.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 02:02 PM

Social Insecurity
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Skeks in the city
I love thinking of social security and medicare as having funds. Here're nice facts from the CBO: 2004 spending on Medicare, social security and interest on federal debt is $1.47 trillion;
2015 spending on those things is projected to be $2.51 trillion.

The US can't possibly allow the $1 billion increase push the US' $500 billion deficits to $1.5 trillion deficits without horrendous inflation. It won't matter whether the deficit is due to issuing new debt or selling old debt that was part of the social security "fund" so the US will have to react by a combination of cutting benefits and increasing taxes.
The big problem is Medicare, right? Conservatives like to group Social Security and Medicare because it makes the former look more troubled than it is.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 02:04 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Somehow, I doubt enlisteds in other countries get to speak with the head honcho like that.
The British aside, very few of them are in Kuwait or Iraq, so their questions about truck armor are doubtless less pressing.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
CBS Politcal News Chief calls for regulation of Blogs.
I'm missing the call for regulation.

There's a good point in there that there doesn't seem to be any sort of code of ethics whereby (e.g.) those Thune blogs would be obliged to disclose that they were on the Thune payroll. Competition doesn't work as well when consumers don't have this sort of information.

I don't understand why they include Atrios, except perhaps out of some screwy impulse to look even-handed by attacking someone on the left. Atrios wasn't paid to blog, and having a position with a watchdog group is very different from having a position with a campaign.

SlaveNoMore 12-10-2004 03:15 PM

Jonah on Kevin on Beinart
 
For anyone other than me and Ty who has been following the Beinart article reaction, here's another take:

From the G- File

Quote:

Staying Soft: Peter Beinart’s lonely voice.
By Jonah Goldberg

-----
I'm very confused.

As this is not news to many, let me be more specific. Last week, my friend Peter Beinart wrote a much-discussed cover story for The New Republic arguing that the Democratic party needs to become a "fighting party" that takes Islamic totalitarianism seriously. As I wrote in my syndicated column, I thought it was a wonderful and serious article, even though I thought his prescription was, if not naïve, then certainly overly optimistic.

Beinart opens with a flashback. "On January 4, 1947, 130 men and women met at Washington's Willard Hotel to save American liberalism." Their cause, according to Beinart, was the pressing need to purge the "softs" from the leadership of the Democratic party. The "softs," Beinart writes, "were not necessarily communists themselves. But they refused to make anti-communism their guiding principle. For them, the threat to liberal values came entirely from the right — from militarists, from red-baiters, and from the forces of economic reaction. To attack the communists, reliable allies in the fight for civil rights and economic justice, was a distraction from the struggle for progress."

Fast forward to today. Beinart says that today's Democratic party is plagued by Softs: The Next Generation. Michael Moore is the most obvious soft, though one could have an endless debate about his influence in the party. What is not debatable, however, is that Moore is a caricature of everything that is wrong with the American Left when it comes to, well, everything. But let's stick to the foreign-policy stuff. Moore doubts that Osama was behind 9/11 and certainly thinks Bush is a bigger threat than Bin Laden. He asks, "Why has our government gone to such absurd lengths to convince us our lives are in danger?" MoveOn.org dabbles in isolationism, complaining — as the hard Left has for 60 years when it wants to change the subject — that the threat to civil liberties is greater than any external threat. It was to this wing of the party that Kerry pandered when he complained that we were opening firehouses in Baghdad but closing them in the U.S. (I didn't know there was a federal Department of Fire Departments, by the way).

Now, because it's always the case that criticism from your own side gets more reaction than criticism from the opposition, I was curious to see what the response from Beinart's fellow liberals would be. After all, in a broad sense there isn't that much that is new to his argument; the novelty is the source more than the content. Conservatives have been saying that the Left is making the Democrats too dovish for a very, very long time. After 9/11 this became a standard refrain in most of the relevant conservative analysis. And, typically, the response from the knee-jerk Left and liberals was, "How dare you..." How dare you question my patriotism! (Kerry himself offered up that one quite often.) How dare you question my commitment to defense! How dare you assume that conservatives are better at foreign policy! Etc.

One regular source of this sort of complaint was Kevin Drum, the in-house blogger of The Washington Monthly and something of a clearinghouse for smart liberals on the web. He's normally sober-minded, but sometimes he sounds like he's lined up too many fallen soldiers on his airline tray. I still remember when John Ashcroft warned — presciently — that al Qaeda might try to influence the U.S. elections as it had in Madrid. Drum responded, "What a despicable worm. What a revolting, loathsome, toad." The upshot was that Drum took some modest offense at the suggestion that Democrats would be any less resolute in their fight against America's enemies.

So, I was particularly intrigued by Drum's initial response to Beinart's cri de coeur: "What he really needs to write," harrumphed Drum, "is a prequel to his current piece, one that presents the core argument itself: namely, why defeating Islamic totalitarianism should be a core liberal issue." He continues later on: "That's the story I think Beinart needs to write. If he thinks too many liberals are squishy on terrorism, he needs to persuade us not just that Islamic totalitarianism is bad — of course it's bad — but that it's also an overwhelming danger to the security of the United States."

Okay hold that thought.

By my very rough guess, since 9/11 National Review Online and National Review have run probably 500 articles from serious scholars to folks like me on why the threat from "Islamo-Fascism," "jihadism," or whatever you want to call it is real, serious, and likely to endure for a very long time. We've come at it from every angle, too — from narrow arguments about weapons proliferation to deep, sustained, philosophical treatises about the Islamic or Arab worldview and our own.

Of course, NR is not alone. Similar articles or articles on similar themes have proliferated across the mainstream media and the Internet. Whole categories of bloggers — the "war bloggers" — have sprouted up. The op-ed pages have groaned from the weight of serious people explaining how the battle against Islamic fundamentalism will likely be known as World War IV. Countless books from liberals, leftists, many, many conservatives, and a few allegedly "nonpartisan" whistleblowers have been written expanding these arguments. There've been campus debates, symposia, and course offerings. There've been international conferences, speeches, lectures, documentaries. Whole new chairs have been established at think tanks and universities, and there've even been new think tanks established, dedicated to defending democracy against this "new" form of totalitarianism. Two Cabinet positions have been created — with bipartisan support in response to this threat. Both presidential nominees staked their campaigns in large parts on their ability to fight and win the war on terror, a sometimes-clunking euphemism for Islamic fundamentalism.

But, what Kevin Drum thinks liberals need is a really good argument explaining the threat from jihadism. Where has he been these last few years?


SEND MORE BRAINS...
This reminds me of a story about Hillary Clinton. When she was leading her health-care task force, she invited an army of experts and scholars to collect reams and reams of research about every facet of America's health-care "crisis." Computers performed regression analyses day and night. Fact-finders scoured the earth like knights seeking the grail for every scintilla of knowledge about everything related to health care, from the cost of an appendectomy in Phoenix to the co-pay for a root canal in Albany. After months of such tireless work, Hillary was asked whether there was anything more she needed. She responded that she'd be all set if she could get just a little more data.

If Drum needs another argument to be persuaded about the threat, he is flatly unpersuadable. Indeed, if Beinart could surf back on the space-time continuum, he could have used Drum's response as an example of exactly his complaint: that the Democrats don't care enough about fighting Islamic totalitarianism.

But that's not even the annoying part. For the last two years, the main thrust of criticism from Democrats has been that Bush hasn't been doing enough to fight Islamic terrorism. Drum was a big fan of Richard Clarke's book. Well, Clarke's book was a criticism from the right. Bush didn't do enough. The whole "wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time" mantra was shorthand for the argument that Iraq was a distraction from the real threat of Islamic totalitarianism.

In a follow-up post, Drum wrote:

So let's be more precise: the charge isn't so much that liberals don't have a serious approach to terrorism, it's that liberals tend to think that terrorism and national security just aren't very important in the first place. Beinart provides one telling statistic to support this: 38% of Republican delegates to this year's national convention mentioned terrorism, defense, or homeland security as important issues. For Democratic delegates the total was 4%. Likewise, Matt Yglesias notes today that looking over the post-election roundtable at The Nation, the problem isn't dovishness, it's that nobody even bothers discussing national security at all. Whether or not liberals have serious ideas about combatting terrorism, I agree with Beinart that simple lack of interest in national security issues is a big problem for liberals. (Emphasis in original)

But before the pixels in this post could dry, he found it necessary to post this: "UPDATE: I guess I need to say this more plainly: I'm not taking sides on this debate right now. I'm just saying that I'd like to hear the arguments."

Why not, Kevin? Do you need more data? This is not a new conversation. Indeed, it's been close to the only conversation on the web for over three years now, and you don't want to take sides?

So let me get this straight. The last two years of bleating and beating we've gotten from liberals — all the how-dare-yous and the Iraq's-a-distraction stuff — all of that was just a pose? You guys don't think any of it's a big deal after all? It was all just a way to smack George Bush around? How sad. How frick'n dishonest. And why is Drum so comfortable constantly saying he's not even going to address the "humanitarian" argument for fighting the war on terror? Since when are liberals so comfortable putting humanitarian issues in a box and hiding them away on a top shelf? He clearly sees that the argument is compelling on the merits, but can't even bring himself to throw it into the equation.

And keep in mind Drum is a respected and decent centrist among Democrats. More popular bloggers on the hard left are peeved at Beinart for assuming that all serious liberals supported the war in Afghanistan.

Drum does make thoughtful points and tangential arguments, but on the big picture he demonstrates the problem with taking his advice. One of his biggest and most longstanding objections to Bush's foreign policy is that the White House hasn't been bipartisan in its prosecution of the war on terror. As he says in his response to Beinart, "The Republican party has made it as clear as it possibly can that the war on terror is not vital enough to require either bipartisan support or the support of the rest of the world. They've treated it more like a garden variety electoral wedge issue than a world historical struggle."

Drum might be right that Bush has been too partisan, though I'm unpersuaded. But, by even offering this argument he in fact concedes that he doesn't think Islamic totalitarianism is a serious threat — because if he did see it that way, he wouldn't let a lack of bipartisanship get in the way. Isolationist Republicans didn't back FDR because FDR was nice to them (neither did the isolationist Democrats Drum pretends didn't exist). They did it because the threat was obvious. National Review and The Weekly Standard — hardly nonpartisan institutions — supported Clinton's war in Yugoslavia (and according to the standards used to justify that war, Iraq was a no-brainer). Think about it. If you think Islamic totalitarianism is a real problem, an existential threat, you write articles like Beinart's. You don't say, "Y'know, I could really get behind this twilight struggle if only the Republicans were nicer to Democrats." You don't bend over backward for fear of seeming like you're "taking sides." Or at least you don't if you love your country more than you love your party (or more than you hate George Bush). Meanwhile, how can you blame some Republicans for thinking Democrats aren't worth reaching out to if at this point they still need to hear more War On Terror 101 arguments?

This is more than an academic point: "Sure, 9/11 was a wakeup call," Drum writes, but since we haven't been attacked as badly at home since, there's no reason to conclude that 9/11 was our generation's Pearl Harbor. In other words, if Bush hadn't done as good a job fighting the war on terrorism, Drum might be more convinced that the war on terrorism is worth fighting.

Forgive me for ever thinking liberals couldn't be tough on the war on terror.
G- File

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 03:22 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The British aside, very few of them are in Kuwait or Iraq, so their questions about truck armor are doubtless less pressing.
during the early 80's do you think Iranian privates had the odd concern about their gas masks? Slave meant they couldn't press the mullahs.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 03:31 PM

Jonah on Kevin on Beinart
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
For anyone other than me and Ty who has been following the Beinart article reaction, here's another take:
Since Jonah Goldberg is not interested in the project that Beinert and Drum and others are writing about -- reforming the Democratic Party -- it should be no surprise that his piece twists their words* and -- presumably willfully, because Goldberg isn't that dumb -- repeatedly misses the point. It makes my head hurt to read it, so I'm not going to bother to respond otherwise.

* To take one small but telling example, Goldberg has mischaracterized Drum's reaction to Ashcroft's suggestion that Al Qaeda would try to influence the election, and obviously has done so to score a cheap point off Drum.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 03:32 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
during the early 80's do you think Iranian privates had the odd concern about their gas masks? Slave meant they couldn't press the mullahs.
Golly, Hank, you're right -- we are a more enlightened country than Iran. I guess everyone serving in the military in Iran ought to thank their lucky stars that they're not Iranian, and just shut the fuck up about the lack of armor for their vehicles. Love it or leave it, right?

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 03:43 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Golly, Hank, you're right -- we are a more enlightened country than Iran. I guess everyone serving in the military in Iran ought to thank their lucky stars that they're not Iranian, and just shut the fuck up about the lack of armor for their vehicles. Love it or leave it, right?
What do you have against Iranians. Do you not like the Shiites?

Rumsfeld didn't dodge the question, contrived as it was, and the fact that it was asked and answered is a small reminder of the fact that we're a great country. I believe that was his point. (PS I used the Iran/Iraq war to help you visualize Sadaam, but you are too tunnel visioned).

What is sad about this country is that the contrived question was jumped on by the NYTimes this morning as the latest "crisis" and the usual fellow- travellers in Congress have already drafted some letter of indignation about the lack of armor- as if they voted for funding for what there is.

Oh, and the CBS memo you found persuasive? It reads almost like a fucking satire piece, given that CBS is about to fire half its news staff for trying to tool an election. You'd defend Mein Kampf if it ended with an anti-Bush slant, wouldn't you?

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 04:06 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
What do you have against Iranians. Do you not like the Shiites?
They're a wonderful people. I trust my child to some on a daily basis. It's the government I don't like.

Quote:

Rumsfeld didn't dodge the question, contrived as it was, and the fact that it was asked and answered is a small reminder of the fact that we're a great country. I believe that was his point. (PS I used the Iran/Iraq war to help you visualize Sadaam, but you are too tunnel visioned).
No, he didn't duck the question, perhaps because that would have been awkward in context. He answered it, and it's his answer that reflects poorly on him. Still not sure what this has to with Iran or Iraq. If your point is that whateve mistakes Rumsfeld has made, he's no Saddam Hussein, we can stipulate to that, 'kay?

Who fucking cares whether the question was "contrived" or not? The disgrace was Rumsfeld's answer. And what does that word mean, anyway? Any question is contrived unless the questioner starts speaking in tongues, right?

Quote:

What is sad about this country is that the contrived question was jumped on by the NYTimes this morning as the latest "crisis" and the usual fellow- travellers in Congress have already drafted some letter of indignation about the lack of armor- as if they voted for funding for what there is.
What is sad is that even now that the election is over, you still have a knee-jerk need to defend the Secretary of Defense even when he is lying to men and women who are about to go risk their lives in this stupid war about having done all he could to protect them. And if you were travelling from Baghdad to Fallujah right now, which would you rather be inside, an unarmored truck or an Abrams tank?

Quote:

Oh, and the CBS memo you found persuasive? It reads almost like a fucking satire piece, given that CBS is about to fire half its news staff for trying to tool an election.
I think there is a problem when people post as journalists or independent voices but are in fact on the payroll of a political campaign. Notwithstanding your impressive skill at arguing while simultaneously sucking Grover Norquist's dick, or whatever it is you do to stay on message, you obviously feel the same way.

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 04:13 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I think there is a problem when people post as journalists or independent voices but are in fact on the payroll of a political campaign.
We can agree on this. What's absurd is:

Rather appearing at fund raisers for the Democratic party for years, a major CBS "news" show tries to tool the election and then the network's "political" chief, after watching that behavior for years, writes this piece. That you can't see it's foul for CBS to say anything is par for the course, but enlightening to anyone new here- not to me, I know how you see things.

Gattigap 12-10-2004 04:28 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
We can agree on this. What's absurd is:

Rather appearing at fund raisers for the Democratic party for years, a major CBS "news" show tries to tool the election and then the network's "political" chief, after watching that behavior for years, writes this piece. That you can't see it's foul for CBS to say anything is par for the course, but enlightening to anyone new here- not to me, I know how you see things.
Look, CBS is even running stories interviewing Heritage Foundation and Cato Institute employees on favoring SocSec reform, yet IDing them only as "man on the street" reactions. What else do you want from them? I know that the blowjob is at the top of your list, but the news team is small, and there are plenty of conservatives in line ahead of you.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 05:44 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Rather appearing at fund raisers for the Democratic party for years, a major CBS "news" show tries to tool the election and then the network's "political" chief, after watching that behavior for years, writes this piece. That you can't see it's foul for CBS to say anything is par for the course, but enlightening to anyone new here- not to me, I know how you see things.
We agree with the gist of the piece. You think CBS tried to "tool" the election, a characterization I wouldn't make. I think CBS was unfair to Atrios in a misguided effort to appear even-handed, and you don't care to comment on it. OK.

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 06:04 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Atrios
his is a banner ad there

http://images.blogads.com/busjptdpnd...humb?rev=rev_8

Aren't most blogs pretty clearly what they are just by the ads. no one is fooling anyone, right?

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 06:10 PM

people who see the world like Ty does
 
as the democrats become scarser and scarser, I'm going to post bios on some. here is a short illustrative summary of one typical dem.

http://www.legacy.com/chicagosuntime...rsonId=2904453

Herbert M. Hazelkorn

Herbert M. Hazelkorn, DDS, PhD Herbert M. Hazelkorn, of Glencoe, Illinois, left us on December 7, 2004, of a broken heart at the recent passing of his wife of 35 years, Bobby, exacerbated by a broken spirit arising from the results of the Presidential election.

Replaced_Texan 12-10-2004 06:25 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
his is a banner ad there

http://images.blogads.com/busjptdpnd...humb?rev=rev_8

Aren't most blogs pretty clearly what they are just by the ads. no one is fooling anyone, right?
I thought that his "not the opinion of Media Matters" disclaimer that's been up since he started working there did the trick of disclosing his affiliations, but that works too.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 06:52 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Aren't most blogs pretty clearly what they are just by the ads. no one is fooling anyone, right?
No. Bloggers sell their ad space.

Gattigap 12-10-2004 07:14 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Aren't most blogs pretty clearly what they are just by the ads. no one is fooling anyone, right?
It's this kind of thinking that leads networks to decline United Church of Christ commercials.

taxwonk 12-10-2004 07:24 PM

people who see the world like Ty does
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
as the democrats become scarser and scarser, I'm going to post bios on some. here is a short illustrative summary of one typical dem.

http://www.legacy.com/chicagosuntime...rsonId=2904453

Herbert M. Hazelkorn

Herbert M. Hazelkorn, DDS, PhD Herbert M. Hazelkorn, of Glencoe, Illinois, left us on December 7, 2004, of a broken heart at the recent passing of his wife of 35 years, Bobby, exacerbated by a broken spirit arising from the results of the Presidential election.

Okay, this is too wierd. Herb was my dentist when I was a kid. He was the best dentist I have ever been to, and the only dentist who didn't leave me severely traumatized by the examination process. He always played the classical music station, and I owe him my appreciation of classical music (such as it is). Herb used to hold cocktail parties to raise funds for Bobby Seale and and the Chicago Seven.

I'll miss him, even though I haven't seen him in 20 years or more.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 07:32 PM

Phone Cards For Wounded Soldiers
 
A worthy cause at this (or any) time of year:
  • PHONE CARDS FOR WOUNDED SOLDIERS
    Since the several posts I have written about how important it is to help those soldiers returning from America's Iraq and Afghanistan operations, I have been flooded by notes from those wondering where they can send checks.

    Some soldiers' familes are economically undermined because of the long-term deployment of the man or woman deployed abroad. This is particularly severe in the case of National Guard men and women deployed in these conflicts. But those wounded physically or psychologically have a set of adjustments ahead an order of magnitude greater.

    I think that the American government and private sector are going to have to partner to find ways to assist these soldiers and their families -- but in the mean time, I have done some digging into some options for those of you who want to do something.

    These requests may sound trivial given the scale of the problems we are writing about -- but the number one request from wounded soldiers at Walter Reed Medical Center is phone cards.

    According to contacts I have at Walter Reed, the government does not pay for long distance phone calls for the troops who are convalescing there. The phone cards can be purchased in many places and can be of any denomination, even as small as $5.00 I am told.

    Books and cds are also welcome and are often requested.

    There are two ways to send things in if you feel inclined to do something on this front.

    The first is to send purchased phone cards to:

    Medical Family Assistance Center
    Walter Reed Medical Center
    6900 Georgia Avenue, NW
    Washington, DC 20307-5001

    Secondly, you may send a check directly to me if you prefer, and I will gather the money and purchase cards and other items that these soldiers have specifically requested. I will run the donated money through the Walter Reed Society, a 501(c)3 organization which has agreed to direct donations received for the soldiers to supporting their needs. I will make sure that tax-deductible receipts are sent to those who donate through this route.

    The checks should be made out to WALTER REED SOCIETY.

    Those who prefer this second option should just send checks to me at the following name and address but mark on the check "Soldiers Donation." The address is:

    Steven Clemons
    The Washington Note
    1630 Connecticut Avenue, NW, 7th Floor
    Washington, DC 20009

    I don't think that purchasing phone cards goes very far in addressing the heavy burdens that deployed soldiers and their families are managing, but during this season -- this is a nice way for modest dollars to help these folks stay in contact with their friends and families.

The Washington Note

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 08:10 PM

news from the north
 
  • Marine claims scores of unarmed Iraqis killed


    Washington - A former United States (US) Marine has claimed he saw American troops in Iraq routinely kill unarmed civilians, including women and children.

    He said he had also witnessed troops killing injured Iraqi insurgents.

    Jimmy Massey, 33, a staff sergeant who served in Iraq before being honourably discharged after 12 years' service, said he had seen troops shooting civilians at road blocks and in the street.

    A code of silence, similar to that found in organised crime gangs, prevented troops from speaking about it.

    A code of silence, similar to that found in organised crime gangs
    "We were shooting up people as they got out of their cars trying to put their hands up," said Massey.

    "I don't know if the Iraqis thought we were celebrating their new democracy. I do know that we killed innocent civilians." Massey said US troops in Iraq were trained to believe that all Iraqis were potential terrorists.

    As a result, he had watched his colleagues open fire indiscriminately. In one 48-hour period, he estimated his unit killed more than 30 civilians in the Rashid district of southern Baghdad.

    "I was never clear on who the enemy was," he explained. "If you have no enemy or you do not know who the enemy is, what are you doing there?"

    His claims were made during an immigration hearing in Toronto, Canada, to assess a claim for refugee status made by a former US soldier, Jeremy Hinzman.

    Hinzman, 26, fled to Canada after refusing to go to Iraq with his colleagues in the 82nd Airborne Division based at Fort Bragg.

    Hinzman is seeking permission to remain in Canada with his wife and child and believes he` will face a court martial if he returns to the US.

    "We were told that we would be going to Iraq to jack up some terrorists," he told the hearing. "We were told it was a new kind of war, that these were evil people and they had to be dealt with."

    Hinzman is among several American soldiers seeking refugee status in Canada, hoping the country's opposition to the war will help.

The Cape Times (South Africa)

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 08:18 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
No. Bloggers sell their ad space.
okay. but who buys it? compare to lgf's banner ad:

http://images.blogads.com/dibsmftmju...humb?rev=rev_4

all I'm saying is you can predict the slant by a quick look-see.

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 08:20 PM

news from the north
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
  • Marine claims scores of unarmed Iraqis killed


    Washington - A former United States (US) Marine has claimed he saw American troops in Iraq routinely kill unarmed civilians, including women and children.

    He said he had also witnessed troops killing injured Iraqi insurgents.

    Jimmy Massey, 33, a staff sergeant who served in Iraq before being honourably discharged after 12 years' service, said he had seen troops shooting civilians at road blocks and in the street.

    A code of silence, similar to that found in organised crime gangs, prevented troops from speaking about it.

    A code of silence, similar to that found in organised crime gangs
    "We were shooting up people as they got out of their cars trying to put their hands up," said Massey.

    "I don't know if the Iraqis thought we were celebrating their new democracy. I do know that we killed innocent civilians." Massey said US troops in Iraq were trained to believe that all Iraqis were potential terrorists.

    As a result, he had watched his colleagues open fire indiscriminately. In one 48-hour period, he estimated his unit killed more than 30 civilians in the Rashid district of southern Baghdad.

    "I was never clear on who the enemy was," he explained. "If you have no enemy or you do not know who the enemy is, what are you doing there?"

    His claims were made during an immigration hearing in Toronto, Canada, to assess a claim for refugee status made by a former US soldier, Jeremy Hinzman.

    Hinzman, 26, fled to Canada after refusing to go to Iraq with his colleagues in the 82nd Airborne Division based at Fort Bragg.

    Hinzman is seeking permission to remain in Canada with his wife and child and believes he` will face a court martial if he returns to the US.

    "We were told that we would be going to Iraq to jack up some terrorists," he told the hearing. "We were told it was a new kind of war, that these were evil people and they had to be dealt with."

    Hinzman is among several American soldiers seeking refugee status in Canada, hoping the country's opposition to the war will help.

The Cape Times (South Africa)
Well this is a good start- but let's wait and see if the Cairo (Egypt) Times picks the story up. Let's not just accept the Cape Town story. As an aside, the US media has been so slow to pick up on soldier bashing stories and all.

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 08:21 PM

people who see the world like Ty does
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
Okay, this is too wierd.
you realize I'm stalking you, don't you?

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 08:27 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
okay. but who buys it? compare to lgf's banner ad:

http://images.blogads.com/dibsmftmju...humb?rev=rev_4

all I'm saying is you can predict the slant by a quick look-see.
No kidding, Dick Tracy. I still think CBS slimed him unfairly by suggesting that he had an ethical problem. Atrios is obviously a lefty. That's not the issue.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 08:51 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by baltassoc
Was the applause by a few thousand other soldiers also planted?
Or the tough questions from other soldiers?
  • Q: Yes, sir. I was wanting to know why I cannot enlist as a single parent in the regular Army, but I can enlist in the National Guard and be deployed?

    ...

    Q: Specialist Skarwin (Sp?) HHD 42nd Engineer Brigade. Mr. Secretary [Cheers] my question is with the current mission of the National Guard and Reserves being the same as our active duty counterparts, when are more of our benefits going to line up to the same as theirs, for example, retirement? [Cheers] [Applause]

    ...

    Q: Good morning, sir. Staff Sergeant Latazinsky (sp) 1st COSCOM (sp), Fort Bragg, [Cheers] North Carolina. Yes, sir. My husband and myself, we both joined a volunteer Army. Currently, I'm serving under the Stop Loss Program. I would like to know how much longer do you foresee the military using this program?

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 09:18 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Or the tough questions from other soldiers?
  • Q: Yes, sir. I was wanting to know why I cannot enlist as a single parent in the regular Army, but I can enlist in the National Guard and be deployed?

    ...

    Q: Specialist Skarwin (Sp?) HHD 42nd Engineer Brigade. Mr. Secretary [Cheers] my question is with the current mission of the National Guard and Reserves being the same as our active duty counterparts, when are more of our benefits going to line up to the same as theirs, for example, retirement? [Cheers] [Applause]

    ...

    Q: Good morning, sir. Staff Sergeant Latazinsky (sp) 1st COSCOM (sp), Fort Bragg, [Cheers] North Carolina. Yes, sir. My husband and myself, we both joined a volunteer Army. Currently, I'm serving under the Stop Loss Program. I would like to know how much longer do you foresee the military using this program?

there were draft riots in the War Between the States. Why are you surprised that people who thought they were beating the system, are upset when the system wants to collect?

Hank Chinaski 12-10-2004 09:20 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I still think CBS slimed him unfairly by suggesting that he had an ethical problem. Atrios is obviously a lefty. That's not the issue.
the issue is you won't admit CBS can't criticize based upon ethics. unless, maybe you believe in "it takes one to know one."

Tyrone Slothrop 12-10-2004 09:22 PM

Post-FoxNews Conservative Media Bias Strikes Again
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
the issue is you won't admit CBS can't criticize based upon ethics. unless, maybe you believe in "it takes one to know one."
You're interested in arguing about CBS's own ethics, and I'm not. I have no position on the subject. Post away to your heart's content on it, though.


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