These guys are supposed to represent us and constitute our government. When questioned about a major terrorist organization (which has officially been condemned by many countries including our's as a terrorist organization) our government rep does not simply say he's against the terror organization. Instead, he says he won't pick sides between our ally, Israel, and Hezbollah. The only qualification he makes to this scary statement is that he is against violence, so he is against Hezbollah using violence.

You're worried that if we "thrash" Dingell, that means we like doing that more than fighting the war on terror. What's up with that? Like we shouldn't criticize bullshit statements made by our reps just because we're in the middle of a war on terror? And by the way, travel to a Muslim country and you'll find that Muslims LOVE these quotes. They are printed in the newspapers and everyone loves to use them as proof that "even some in the U.S. government recognize our standing as an organization." Dingell is not some hack blogger; he's a representative of our U.S. government who screwed up, screwed up on the topic of terrorist Muslims, and screwed up at a really bad time. Fuck. That. Noise.

See the bolded text above, which apparently you missed. Too used to having associates read documents for you and highlight the key parts.

I agree that Dingell was not as blunt in criticizing Hezbollah as I would be. But that's not what Hanson said.

Or that DK is your sock.

Why does he qualify it? I condemn Hezbollah, period. They are a terrorist organisation and I refuse to legitmise any part of them by qualifying my condemnation. Much in the same way I condemn Hitler. Fully. Without qualification. Not just for the holocaust. For everything. Including the bad artwork.

What is Dingell reserving? Hezbollah's right to be a "peaceful state aparatus in the Bekkaa valley?

Ty, I challenge you, condemn Hezbollah, without qualification. Show Dingbat the way! It will feel good and righteous.

Can you do it? Or do hate Israel and by extension America?

the first time I read that I saw "suck". Kinky.

I heart you.

What the fuck is your problem? Why do you jones to trash Democrats for this sort of thing? Dingell did not put things the way I would, but you this is twisted.

And Sidd -- do you see what your Lieberman-style crap leads to? You try to sound reasonable, and you just provide cover for this bullshit.

eta:

From the article above:

• He also said in a release Tuesday that he signed a July 28 letter from U.S. Reps. Robert Wexler, D-Fla., and Elton Gallegly, R-Calif., calling on the European Union to add Hezbollah to the EU terrorist organization list. Dingell said it was the second time he has called on the EU to classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

Penske/Diane/Sidd --

Your most recent posts did not unequivocally condemn North Korea and Iran! Why do you refuse to condemn North Korea and Iran? Why do you hate America?

God, you're being obtuse

He isn't equating the two here, Ty?

Hem haw. Why the hedge, Ty?

Why the but? What is there to qualify, Ty?


Bring both sides together? Let's sit the terrorists and their victims down together for dinner, Ty. Maybe a nice Zin to start?


Yes Ty, the terrorists will continue to kill people. What an astute fellow.

Ty,

Dingell is a smart dude. A lawyer. He went to Georgetown Law, which is like a top 20 school. He is a longtime legislator. I have to believe that he knows that words have very specific meanings. There was a reason he qualified that statement or else I have to believe, he would not have.

Call him up, maybe you can get him to reissue the statement. If you'd like I could call my senators and see if they have any pull.

In the meantime, you ducked my invite to condemn Hezbollah, why?

Interesting to see the Lamontian rift grow.

Go Joe, go!

I condemn North Korea.

I condemn Iran, except for the innocent oppressed citisens who are part of it against their will, Allah be praised!

I love America! G-d Bless her!

Box or bottle?

So why didn't you boldface the "for the violence" part? Look, the U.S. is one of the countries that has condemned Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, period. NOT JUST THE SECURITY ARM or terrorist arm of Hezbollah, whatever, like some other countries have. And you're wondering why the guy is getting knocked for this?

Hangman
 

Did anyone else get Julia Sweeney? Is she a leading lite of atheisticism?

Ambiguous Pat seemed like an atheist...

I note that your condemnation of Iran is qualified, and says nothing specifically about Iran supporting Hezbollah terrorists. Why do you support Hezbollah terorrists? And you do not condemn racism and zoning violations! Why do you support racism and zoning violations?

STP and you will see that Dingell supports designating Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Although perhaps you have read enough Victor Davis Hanson to think that means he supports them. Meanwhile, you refused to condemn North Korea and Iran. Why do you support North Korea and Iran?

My condemnation of Iran, on its face, implicitly condemned its support of Hezbollah, but to the extent that it didnt', I unqualifiedly condemn Iran's support of Hezbollah.

Unlike you, apparently, I do not need to qualify it as "Hezbollah terrorists", because Hezbollah by definition is a terrorist.

I do condemn racism, w/o qualification.

I do NOT condemn zoning violations. I condemn zoning and its infringement on the people's natural rights to freely use their land in the grand American tradition of property rights. Why do you want to take my land or that of my fellow Americans Ty? Do you hate America?

Congress is privy to intelligence you and I don't see- maybe he's seen an analysis of what will likely happen to france over the next 15 years and he still wants to be able to take his kids to see le tour eifel.

Victor Davis Hanson:

• "Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich. ... recently said, 'I don't take sides for or against Hezbollah or for or against Israel.'"

All of you, apparently, now concede that Hanson smeared Dingell by misrepresenting his views in the context of Dingell's response to someone else smearing him the same way. You all have moved on to explaining what else Dingell ought to have said. So, go nuts with that. Nevertheless, none of you are willing to admit Hanson got it wrong. It's more important to trash a Democrat.

United we stand indeed.

Ty, none of us are conceding anything of the sort.

In fact, we are reiterating over and over (and over) that Dingell's remarks repeatedly - in edited context or in their complete transcription - reveal that he regards Hezbollah and Israel as equal parties.

As such, I don't see how Hanson got it wrong.

For starters, he didn't condemn Israel's use of violence.

Think about that for a little while.

And you didn't condemn Iran or North Korea. Why do you support Iran or North Korea?

eta: I would think that anyone sufficiently interested in politics here would recognize that Dingell is taking sides in a debate in the foreign-policy community about whether the United States should attempt to act as an "honest broker" for a Middle East peace agreement, or whethe it should side with our key ally in the region, Israel.

No one -- no one -- thinks that the people who support the "honest broker" option actually support Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria or Iran. The question is how best to support Israel and the United States' long-term objectives. By playing this role, we engineered a durable peace between Israel and Egypt at Camp David. So it's not like there's no precedent for this working. OTOH, the whole Oslo thing did not get Israel peace with the PLO.

Bush plainly has given up trying to play this role, and thinks peace is ultimately more likely if Israel beats up on, e.g., Hamas, Hezbollah and Lebanon for a while. I don't think this has worked out so well, but reasonable minds can differ, I suppose.

And then there are the Victor Davis Hansons of the world, who are advancing their side of this policy debate by smearing people like Dingell. I would wager that if you look at his whole record, Dingell has been quite supportive of Israel. None of you have bothered to do this. Instead, you are party to the smearing.

If you re-read Dingell's remarks in this context, it is pretty obvious what he is trying to say, and that he doesn't equate Hezbollah and Israel. Give it a try. It won't hurt your brain.

5k Policy
 

Hello my peeps,

As an Mod here, I thought I should bring it to your attention that the policy related to the poster who gets the 5K post in a thread getting to name the next thread, has been changed.


That said, as you can see, there will be discretion on the part of the Mod(s) in creating the name of the thread, as the same shall be suggested/advised upon by the plebe who gets the 5K post.

In order to clearly articulate my position and future intent as a Mod of this board, with the requisite discretion, as above, I wanted to take this opportunity to address all of all y'all and say:

I am the Mod of this Board who will support the property rights, if any, and freedom of choice of the K winner to choose the thread title (within the bounds of the ToS), as has always been the grand tradition and policy of this board (whom's predecessor I invented on Infirm).

Essential to my position is my overall support of Freedom and my personal love of a meritocracy, where each member earns their stripes, respectively, sts.

I know the freedom lovers out there will support my policy, and I will continue to reap the adoration and belovedness of my constituents here.

Ty, I put it to you, Freedom or oppressive dictatorial censorship?

Peace and may g-d bless the Board,

Penske

slave has my proxy...

I unqualifiedly support Israel's right to exist and its right to self-defence of the Jewish homeland.

Care to join me Ty?

5k Policy
 

My response to that question would be fact-specific. E.g., I support freedom from the posting of outable information.

Do you think I disagree with that? If you post something I've said on this or any other electronic forum that would reasonably cause a reader to think that I do not unqualifiedly support Israel's right to exist or its right to self-defense, I will both join you and buy you a box of the finest Washington State boxed wine.

5k Policy
 

You are ducking and weaving Ty. Just like a leftwing pol. I said my policy was subject to the ToS (as the policy I am adopting mirrors the policy that is in place now).

Freedom of Choice or paternalistically nannystatist bigbrotherhoodlumism? The people see through your fence sitting and flipfloppery.

Choose or lose Ty, choose. or. lose!

I think you have the morally centered compass to make the right decision here (and elsewhere), but I put the burden of proof on you. The keyboard is at your fingertips...

5k Policy
 

I don't know the ToS well enough to be sure, but I suspect all the things that would concern me are in there.

I put the burden on you. You haven't said anything to shift the burden back to me. You have a keyboard too.

Ty, I don't give a crap what Hanson said - now, in the past, about Dingell or otherwise. I care about what Dingell said, though. I think it's shocking that Dingell couldn't just fricken answer that he's "against" Hezbelloh and had to make the qualifications he did. He sounds like an ass. And knock it off with our "failure to condemn North Korea." We weren't talking about North Korea. If were were, I'd condemn it. Dingell was talking about Hezbollah. He didn't flat out say he was against them. He only condemns their "violence". WTF? And why would he offer up the "I don't take sides". Nobody fucking asked him if he would take sides. This is a slam dunk. Sleep on it. You'll agree in the morning.

A letter from Rep. Dingell to Rush Limbaugh:

• August 2, 2006
  
  Mr. Rush Limbaugh
  1270 Avenue of the Americas
  New York, NY 10020
  
  Dear Rush:
  
  Your comments about me and my position on the terrorist organization Hezbollah during your program on August 1 and 2 were dishonest and misleading.
  
  I am consistently on the record saying that I believe Hezbollah to be a terrorist organization dedicated to the elimination of Israel. The world community must come together to work to eradicate Hezbollah and their power. They unilaterally provoked this conflict, they use civilians as human shields, and they generally have no regard for the loss of either Israeli or Lebanese civilian lives. The sad and unfortunate events of the past few weeks have reinforced this belief.
  
  Here are the facts:
  
  In March 2005, I voted for a resolution calling on the European Union to list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
  
  In June 2006, I voted for a resolution urging the Organization of American States countries to designate Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
  
  On July 28 of this year, I signed onto a letter again reiterating the request for the EU to regard Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
  
  You also disregarded my continued support of the State of Israel including:
  
  * A July 19, 2006 statement in which I said on the House floor "Israel's right to defend itself is absolute."
  * A statement two days earlier on July 17 on the House floor in which I said: "The actions of Hezbollah have been wrong and counterproductive. They violated Israel's borders, they have continually targeted civilians, and they have endangered Lebanon's promising future."
  * And, the fact that during my 50 years in Congress, I have proudly supported more than $300 billion dollars in aid for the State of Israel.
  
  For your own political agenda, you ignored the facts and relied on an edited soundbite which does not stand up to the scrutiny of unbiased reporters.
  
  Let me make it clear: I will continue to call for a cease-fire and to advocate for peace in the Middle East. I want an end to the deadly attacks for many reasons, including my belief that this conflict has cost Israel dearly in the international community. I also believe Israel faces a long-term threat if the government of Lebanon is controlled by extremists. This could happen if the violence brings down Lebanon's democratically elected government - which has received strong support from the Bush Administration. I believe Israel has both the right to exist and the right to protect its borders. I am doing what I believe will help our friends in Israel today, tomorrow and for years to come.
  
  You and I disagree on many things, but we do share a love of this country and its people. I ask you to use your influence to stoke the fires for peace in the Middle East - a peace that will advance America's standing in all corners of the world - instead of furthering the bloodshed and pain for the sake of partisan politics.
  
  Sincerely yours,
  
  John D. Dingell
  Member of Congress
  15th Congressional District, Michigan

5k Policy
 

RT, can ypu verify that it actually was the current Ty who passed the Mod test for this board?

You posted the smear here, and you wouldn't have any idea what Dingell actually said if I hadn't responded.

No shit, but it's a slam dunk that he wants the U.S. to be an honest broker. [eta: That is the debate in U.S. foreign-policy circles about our overall policy re Israel and the Palestinians, which is why Dingell was speaking to it.]

I would think that your experience here so far would keep you from saying more about what Dingell thinks or wants, since you haven't tried very hard to find out.

Hate the terrorists, not fellow Americans. Stop dividing us.

Ty, I don't give a crap what you said -in the past, about Israel's existence, self defence or otherwise. I care about what you are willing to say now, though. I think it's shocking that you can't just fricken answer that Israel "has an unqualified right to exist and you support them in the self defence of the Jewish homeland" but instead had to make the burden shifting comments that you did. You sounds like an ass (no offence). And knock it off with the "I have a keyboard too" We weren't talking about my statement any longer. If were were, we can note that I already said what I am asking you to say. I support Israel. You are now talking about keyboards and burden shifting. You didn't flat out say that you accepted your own burden. You only attempt to shift it. WTF? This is a slam dunk. Sleep on it. You'll agree in the morning after you take some aspirin for the boxed wine hangover.

Why does what I say in my current shiraz-addled state have any more currency than what I said yesterday or last week?

I think it's shocking that you haven't repeated in your last post that you condemn North Korea and Iran and racism. Clearly you are backtracking on your prior commitment to standing with America against bad things. Stop the hate!

His quoted support of Hezbollah remains troubling., but at least he acknowledges that the Bush administration is responsible for democracy in Lebanon. The leftists here should take note that your side doesn't always have to make up false claims of negativity about our CinC, but instead can (and should) give him credit for bringing democracy and freedom to the ME.

Shiraz?!?

Intreresting, while the names Shiraz and Syrah are interchangeable, Shiraz is more commonly used in South Africa, Australia, and Canada (with Syrah being the more common name in America)

Further, the name shiraz comes from the City of Shiraz, Iran, the city of flowers, wine and poetry in Iran.

Do you hate America? Even worse [ SHUDDER] do you support Iran?

eta: a little research also shows that the California Senate voted to make Zinfandel the "historic wine" of California.

Why do you hate Zin? Dp you [ SHUDDER] hate the great state of California?

Spanky, take note of his answers, you may want to talk to Arnold about excommunication. I hear Nevada has some nice boxed Shiraz to offer.

And still you won't admit that you were wrong about his views. Interesting.

On the recommendation of a local wine store, my wife bought me a bottle of Morambro Creek shiraz, a tasty bottle from Oz. I have no reason to doubt that they recommended an Aussie wine because of Prime Minister Howard's support in the GWOT, and I have no reason to believe it had anything to do with John Quiggan.

Conspicuously absent in this response was any acknowledgement of the democracy the Bush administration has brought to the ME, as noted by Mr. Dingle. It seems to me, and I am sure many others, that this lack of support of American sponsored democracy in the ME could be inferred to imply a calculus on your part to bolster the ability of the terrorists in al Qaeda, Hezbollah and Hamas to bring down their reign of oppressive anti-freedom based false-G-d-faux-theocratic dictatorship of Islamofacism on the peoples of the ME and in the process destroy Israel. Why do you support this?

Selective editing
 

Go figure.

Actually, I'm backing Ty on this one. He has never personally said anything of the sort.