"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Agreed.

OTOH, it's somewhat refreshing to hear GOP apologists come out and actually say "oh, it's no problem for someone to have leaked the identity of a CIA WMD specialist during wartime, because it was in pursuit of a nobler partisan goal to crush our political enemies whom we really really don't like, and as because far as the mainstream media has reported, I've not heard of anyone actually dying as a result."

This degree of candor is rare.

They author is an idiot because he says that Yemenis don't want or don't need democracy. Who is he to say what they want. Until he conducts a poll that sort of statement makes him an idiot.

I believe that the United States should encourage human rights through out the world.

I believe democracy is a basic human right.

Do you agree with the above statements?

Do you not think that that article was arguing against both those points?

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Those are two words that will never be put together by historians in a sentence.

Iraq is a quagmire. I suspect that history will show eliminating hussein was the right thing, but it won't go down as a masterstroke, but as a good, but difficult, decision. But after that, what can Bush claim as an accomplishment in his 5 years thus far (and who does anything in the last 2-3 years, other than ride out scandals?)

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Right, it had nothing to do with refuting Wilson's statements and revealing him to be a partisan hack.

Who's spinning?

" Democracy is something a nation has to want, something a nation has to want so much they will shed blood for it. And the Arab world wants democracy as much as they want a hole in the head. They don't get it, they don't care to get it and it seems to be making life particularly shitty for their Iraqi brothers."

After reading the above quote were standing by your above statement?

That statement strikes me as ignorant, absurd and bigoted.

Maybe if you substitute the word Human Rights with democracy you might finally see the obvious.

" Human Rights are something a nation has to want, something a nation has to want so much they will shed blood for it. And the Arab world wants Human Rights as much as they want a hole in the head. They don't get it, they don't care to get it and it seems to be making life particularly shitty for their Iraqi brothers."

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

That facts, as we know them today, indicate that Rove did not "leak" as that term is commonly understood. It does, however, appear that he may have used poor judgment in disclosing non-classified information. Whether you view this as a malicious political hit or stupid misstake depends on what you are predetermined to believe about this administration. If this had happended in the Clinton administration, I have no doubt I would be appauled and calling for his regination. But then again, I believe that Clinton raped Juanita, so you be the judge.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Its always amusing to watch moralists turn into pragmatists and proceduralists overnight.

Schaedenfreude is always satisfying.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Overnight? Or in a nanosecond?

It's actually kind of depressing to have the suspicions of complete and utter hypocricy confirmed so quickly and resoundingly.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

If this Rove thing is the first development that confirmed this admin's hypocrisy, you've had your head under an awful lot of sand.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Not the admin. The board.

The author said Yemenis don't want democracy, and note that Sullivan disagreed in part, pointing to the Iraqis who voted last January. For the umpteenth time, no one -- no one -- said that Yemenis don't "need" democracy. This is your own little canard.

The author -- who may be a woman, I don't know -- lives in Yemen right now, and that qualifies him or her to describe what he or she sees there. Many people have offered astute political commentary without taking opinion polls. Indeed, I suspect that if you ask Yemenis whether they "want democracy," they would say yes, and yet they might generally act in ways that reflects other priorities.

You are not paying attention to what I am writing, so I will say it again. I believe that democracy is a human right -- grammatically poorly put, but a shorthand I think we both understand -- and that the United States should promote human rights around the world. I do not think Sullivan or the author of that e-mail to him -- it wasn't an article, it was an e-mail to a blog, so you should consider that it was perhaps more anecdotal than the sort piece that might be based on opinion polling -- indeed I suspect you have formed opinions about, say, California politics and what Californians want, in the past without taking a poll, and might even have posted on a chat board or sent a friend an e-mail about them -- what was I saying? -- neither Sullivan nor his correspondent disagrees with me on those points.

I think the fear is that the U.S. policy is not helping us reach those goals. We used to be a beacon for Yemenis -- they envied us -- and now they increasingly hate us.

And perhaps it shouldn't be surprising that this is happening, given the number of conservatives on this board who advocate nuking Mecca, etc.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Oh, they're just being partisans. If we all sat down and had drinks and discussed this crap, people would find loads of middle ground. This medium invites confrontation.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

I don't get that feeling, but OK.

"Hack" Penske stops posting
 

Exactly. Especially when Penske is not around to act as the voice of moderation. In his absence Spanky runs wild and it's just a giant shitstorm.

P.S. - Trust me, drinks don't help.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

I actually agree with this.

"Hack" Penske stops posting
 

I actually agree with this.

"Hack" Penske stops posting
 

I think some would get better, some would get worse.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

You think I'm as unfiltered IRL as I am here? I wouldn't have any teeth.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Not you so much. In real life you probably have that thing going where you want people to like you, so you shift the subject, make jokes, and charm.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

You mean "personality"? I hate those kind of people. So shallow.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Hey, you're the one who said drinks wouldn't help.

I do it too. I do feel kind of shallow, but oh well.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Don't worry. Your cervix is normal depth. It's my length.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

FWIW, I knew instantly that it was you and not Sebby on this post.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

The cervix hitter is still around.

ETA I knew this one was you; I don't think sebby pays that much attn to other people's details.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Sebby couldn't get quite that deep, eh?

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

You feel shallow when you're being personable? I kind of enjoy it.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

It feels good at the time. Afterwards, I feel weird and kind of dirty.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Every person I've met here has been polite, charming and normal. The anonymity of the board allows people to be lunatics, but when looking someone in the eye, and interaccting with them personally, I am certain everyone behaves appropriately.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

I'm usually a lot more drunk off-board than on-board when I interact with GAs. Maybe not as nice, but a lot more friendly.

quote:
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Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
See, I read it and concluded that the author is in favor of spreading democracy, but believes that the U.S. has pursued specific policies that are counterproductive to that end. I feel that way, as does Sullivan.

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Maybe we're talking past each other, but I don't understand how it's necessarily ignorant, absurd or bigoted to observe that people in Yemen seem to care about other things -- e.g., Arab nationalism, or their religious beliefs -- more than democracy. Is it bigoted to point out that the revolution in Iran did more to advance Islam than democracy? Of course not. Do you think that was just bad luck? Because the hard-line candidate favored by the mullahs just won the last election.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

I get the reverse feeling. I genuinely like talking to people. And you're right - I like it when people like me. But doesn't everyone? Aren't we all sort of hams? What other kind of person would think an entire board of people would be interested in his/her quips? The only time I get bummed is when I'm not interacting with people. Hence, so many years of vitriol against the aspects of this career which chain one to a desk in an office.

3.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

2. Almost too normal.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

You're probably one of the friendliest even tempered people here. I don't see how there could be much distinction.

ETA: I really want you to like me also...

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Heh. I'm just saying that I'm a really friendly drunk, too.

Wilson
 

Incidentally, this letter from Wilson to two Senators clears up many of charges Slave and others have made against him.

Wilson
 

A convicted liar can't clear up any of those charges in his own letter.

(hi Penske!)

Wilson
 

If she floats, she's a witch! And if she sinks, she's not a witch!


eta:

OK, it's just a little more complicated that that.

Hanging my head in geek shame now. I say Burger is this board's Bedevere.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

You lie! You know you want to have dinner with me!

We are talking past eachother: "the Arab world wants democracy as much as they want a hole in the head". I just don't see you defending this statement. I think it is indefensible.

Anyway, more importantly - why doesn't your Avatar move anymore.