Someone who is actually in Yemen is reporting that that is what he or she sees. You leap to the conclusion that he or she does not think Arabs should aspire to democracy -- a notion completely unsupported by his or her writing -- and you dismiss as "indefensible" the notion that what Yemenis actually think and do might be different from what you think they ought to be aspiring to. This sort of pie-in-the-sky, rose-colored wishful thinking is exactly what got us into trouble in Iraq -- maybe you've noticed already that the Iraqis to whom we were bringing democracy were somewhat less grateful than we expected? -- and is a real threat to the actual project of making the world a better place. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

It's moving for me. Get yourself a frappucino.

"Hack" Penske stops posting
 

Yes, I am like a giant Tums for this place. I keep the acidity down.




I don't even think we talked politics, so much.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Hence why you blew me off last time in NY?

Jagoff.

Wilson
 

So Wilson repeatedly lies, the Bi-partisan commission calls him out on it, and then he sends them a letter claiming their assertions were wrong.

Yawn.

The sad thing is that this fucker has now been given the media spotlight 3 years in a row.

Wilson
 

If you had an open mind about any of this and wanted to take the five minutes to read his letter, you would see that it's not like that. (For starters, he's not complaining about what "bi-partisan commission" said -- the hack job on him was the work of Senators Roberts, Bond, and Hatch, all Republicans, and it was immediately clear that they were taking him down for the most partisan of reasons.)

Slave, tell me how Karl Rove knew within a couple of days of Novak's original piece -- you know, when Rove was talking to reporters, according to his attorney -- that Wilson was a partisan hack? Was there anything besides the fact that he wrote an op-ed in the New York Times disagreeing with the administration, or is that enough in your book to justify the smearing of him and his wife that followed?

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

2. PotD.

When someone says that Arabs want democracy about as much as they want a hole in the head that leads me to believe that they don't think democracy is really in the cards right now or in the near future. Call me crazy.

I never said it was indefensible that Yemenis were not aspring to what I thought they should be aspiring to. I never said they should aspire to anything. I just said that quote was indensible. How many time do I have to use the quote before you read it? The quote I was using talked about "Arabs". You are aware that there is a distinction between Arabs and Yeminis.

The Iraqis may not be that grateful but that is besides the point. The problem in Iraq is not that the Arabs (and Kurds) don't want democracy, it is that they don't think the United States really intends to bring democracy. That is a huge distinction.

I think most Arabs want democracy and I have never seen any sort of evidence that they don't. Every time a real election is held, from Morocco, to Alergia, to Iraq to Kuwait the turnout is amazing. So when she says - Arabs want democracy as much as they want a hole in their head - she is just flat wrong - and all the evidence points to the fact that she is wrong. I am pretty sure most Yemenis want democracy, but even if it were true that they did not, extrapolating that all Arabs don't want Democracy from her experience in Yemen is like me saying most Americans are very tolerant of Homosexuals after spending the weekend in San Francisco.

How can you defend the statement: "Arabs want democracy about as much as they want a hole in the head".

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

You ducked me when I was in Chicago, where men in skirts are not normal.

Wilson
 

Come on, puuuuuuuhleeeeeeeeeeeze! give me a break Ty.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

Jagoff? You're from Pittsburgh? Jesus, she's right. I must never pay any attention to anyone else's personal facts.

But now I know where you get your politics...

Wilson
 

Ty, it ain't a good idea to offer a letter written by the accused professing his innocence, after the charges have been filed (or even before), as evidence of his innocence. I'm just sayin'.

Wilson
 

I will put more credence in this guy's claims of innocence as soon as he starts putting in some time and effourt trying to find the real killer.

Like OJ.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

I have confidence in our ability to keep the conversation focused on food, beverages, sex, and what other people are wearing. Although you are ostensibly straight, I think it would be sort of like the dinners the women on SaTC had with the short balding gay guy. Except cattier.

"Hack" Wilson keeps talking
 

I am not bald.

Wilson
 

I know all of you are too cool to read the letter, but I think he does an effective job of addressing some of bullshit about which he has allegedly lied.

Frozen
 

No, the dino is not moving, darling.

For the weekend, I bring you the wedding photo of this couple.

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/tv...050523_wpn.jpg

It's too bad she couldn't marry him before he became a Fat Samoan and was still a hot-looking 6th grader.

This sort of talk might get you the medal at the 8th Grade "Why Democracy Is Good" speech contest at the VFW post, but it doesn't fly very far as a practical solution to the problems in the ME. While the spread of democracy is the only solution to these problems in the long run, it is naive to believe they want it imposed on them at the point of a gun by the US. Remember your point about peace -- it has to be achieved. Same thing with democracy.

How ironic that Ayn's words are being used in this context.

What does this mean? This is such a weak attempt to divert from the issue we were dicussing. If you can't make a logical argument, then let it go. This pathetic attempt at obscuring the issue fools no one. You refuse to answer the questions because you know that these questions demonstrate that your position is ridiculous. But instead of facing that, you say that these questions are something an eight grader would come up with. Well that would be an eighth grader that put a lot more thought into this issue than you have. Why don't you answer these simple eigth grade questions.

You said that is was bigoted or racist to try and impose democracy on the middle ease. Now all of a sudden you have admited that Democracy is good for the Middle East in the long run. Just admit that your statement was stupid and lets move on. But don't try and pretend we were arguing about something else. We were arguing about your statement - nothing else.

We've Fallen So Low
 

So I'm sitting here on a Friday night, killing time and waiting to go out, and I go back and read some of the posts from this board from a couple of years ago. Very, very interesting. Not only were we all a whole lot more substantive back then, but we also had more respect for one another. Even Billmore and Ty were exchanging on fairly respectful terms. And Ted Kennedy was no where to be found. I miss those times.

We've Fallen So Low
 

Sheesh, way to have my back Club. Do you remember ken pornstarr?

eta: [hi ty!]very nice syrahs tonight[/hi ty!]

We've Fallen So Low
 

Politics in this country is more polarized. It's not an accident, and it's not a good thing.

eta: [yo, P.]I had a Seghesio wine tonight that was from Italy, not California -- very odd [eata: in the sense that I thought I was getting a California wine, and didn't], but tasty.[/yo, P.]

Look, Spank, I don't really think anything substantive is being discussed. I never said it was bigoted or racist to impose democracy on the ME (though it may be unwise). I was trying to make a subtle point, and I missed, apparently. When it gets to this point, I've found it's best to just let it drop.

Frozen
 

Yes, sweetheart, the dino is moving. As are your thoughtful posts. Don't listen to all the nay-sayers.

Frozen
 

Hussy!

Frozen
 

pot/kettle/etc.

Confused
 

I point out that this statement, to T-Rex, is not only utterly stupid but is bigoted:

"And the Arab world wants democracy as much as they want a hole in the head. They don't get it, they don't care to get it."

And T-Rex defends it by saying that military force may not be the best way to achieve our ends - as a defense of this statement? Is it just me but there is absolutely no connection between this statement and his defense of it.

This statement does not discuss military force. This statement says that the Arab world, that is all two hundred and seventy million Arabs from Morocco to Baghdad, do not want Democracy. In addition it says that they don't get it.

If I said all blacks south of the Sahara not only don't want Democracy, but that they also don't get it. Wouldn't that be considered bigoted?

To sum: I point out an obviously stupid and bigoted statement and T-Rex defends it by pointing out an extraneous issue, instead of acknowledging the obvious.

Then Shapeshifter points out that, in response to my calling the above statement bigoted:

"This is no more racist or bigotted than assuming that everyone must want the system we have."

I assume that this means he is saying that it is bigoted and racist to assume that everyone wants democracy. Isn't that what he is saying? The system we were discussing is democracy?

When I pose this Shapshifter says that I am being arrogant, acting like an eight grader, and other stuff.

Then Shapeshifter says that:

"I never said it was bigoted or racist to impose democracy on the ME"

Earlier he said:

"This is no more racist or bigotted than assuming that everyone must want the system we have."

Is it just me or are these guys so caught up in being right that they simple can't acknowledge the obvious.

Let's us try this again:

T-Rex can't you just acknowledge that this statement is not only bigoted but stupid:

"And the Arab world wants democracy as much as they want a hole in the head. They don't get it, they don't care to get it."

Shapeshifter - can't you just admit that this statement implies that it is bigoted and racist to assume that Arabs would want democracy. And such statement was not well thought out and is wrong.

"This is no more racist or bigotted than assuming that everyone must want the system we have."

btw: We all understand that you think that military force is not the best way to bring democracy to the middle east. By acknowledging these above statements no one will assume that you have changed your positions on this issue, nor will we assume that you are acknowledging that military force is a good way to bring peace to the middle east.

Op-ed in (all of all places) the NYT:

link here

Some Coverup
 

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050716/D8BC7F500.html

• WASHINGTON (AP) - After mentioning a CIA operative to a reporter, Bush confidant Karl Rove alerted the president's No. 2 security adviser about the interview and said he tried to steer the journalist away from allegations the operative's husband was making about faulty Iraq intelligence.
  
  The July 11, 2003, e-mail between Rove and then-Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley is the first showing an intelligence official knew Rove had talked to Matthew Cooper just days before the Time magazine reporter wrote an article identifying Valerie Plame as a CIA officer.
  
  "I didn't take the bait," Rove wrote in an e-mail obtained by The Associated Press, recounting how Cooper tried to question him about whether President Bush had been hurt by the new allegations.
  
  The White House turned the e-mail over to prosecutors, and Rove testified to a grand jury about it last year.
  
  Earlier in the week before the e-mail, Plame's husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, had written a newspaper opinion piece accusing the Bush administration of twisting prewar intelligence, including a "highly doubtful" report that Iraq bought nuclear materials from Niger.
  
  "Matt Cooper called to give me a heads-up that he's got a welfare reform story coming," Rove wrote in the e-mail to Hadley.
  
  "When he finished his brief heads-up he immediately launched into Niger. Isn't this damaging? Hasn't the president been hurt? I didn't take the bait, but I said if I were him I wouldn't get Time far out in front on this."
  
  Frederick Jones, a spokesman for Hadley, now Bush's national security adviser, said he could not comment due to the continuing criminal investigation. Rove's attorney, Robert Luskin, said his client answered all the questions prosecutors asked during three grand jury appearances, never invoking his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination or the president's executive privilege guaranteeing confidential advice from aides.
  
  Rove, Bush's closest adviser, turned over the e-mail as soon as prosecutors opened a criminal investigation into who leaked Plame's covert work for the CIA.
  
  He later told a grand jury the e-mail was consistent with his recollection that his intention in talking with Cooper that Friday in July 2003 wasn't to divulge Plame's identity but to caution Cooper against certain allegations Plame's husband was making, according to legal professionals familiar with Rove's testimony.
  

Follow-up on Bilmore
 

Confused
 

All I was trying to point out to you is (1) the email quoted by Ty and (2) while we certainly feel that Democracy is the best system (you can spare us the Civics class lectures), (a) others may not agree for reasons Ty has given at length and, (b) even if they do agree, they don't want it imposed on them by us.

I have no interest in debating your "Democracy #1" strawman. Just because you (and I, for that matter) disagree with the people in (2)(a) does not make you a bigot or a racist. Similarly, the writer of the email is neither a racist nor a bigot for making the observation that the (2)(a) people seem to predominate in Yemen.

If you cannot see the distinction between what I originally posted and me calling you a racist and a bigot*, you should eat more Apricots. I hear they're good for improving your reading comprehension.

*Or "racist fuck," for short.

Some Coverup
 

Talk about much ado about nothing. Hopefully the liberals have the decency and self-respect to put their partisan witchhunt aside now and push Mr. and Mrs. Plame back under the slime covered rock they crawled out from under.

On more important topics, has Rehnquist kicked yet?

Confused
 

We know.

You know I love you like a third cousin once removed whom I have never actually met but heard referenced in family discussions, in a platonic way, nttawwt, but I think that it is time to toss in the towel, Shifty. Preserve what little dignity you have left.

Deep, Deep Cover
 

How did this not get more widely reported:

Maybe Plame herself was the initial leak.

Deep, Deep Cover
 

Is that a violation of the applicable law? Perhaps she should be prosecuted.

Sir Bedevere
 

Nice to know that Tierney is cribbing ideas for his column from this board.

Can someone explain to me why the conservatives on this board don't want to look at Joe Wilson's explanation of what some Republicans call his "lies," but find the facts leaked by Karl Rove's attorney completely exculpatory? Whatever.

Confused
 

Look, you're not trying very hard. The statement is not bigoted. It's reportage. Someone living in the Arab world is telling you what he sees, not what Arabs are capable of.

And I don't recall what I said about military force, but the point was that we have pursued policies -- military and otherwise -- that are effectively delegitimizing democracy among Arabs and strengthening other constituencies. It's not just the invasion of Iraq, though clearly that's a part of it. It's also our support for undemocratic regimes in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, among others, and the perception that our policies value Israeli lives and interests more than those of Palestinians.

I think you are taking one sentence out of context and misreading it. I don't think the author of that e-mail meant to speak definitively about all Arabs. I think he is taking Yemen to be typical.

To sum: I point out an obviously stupid and bigoted statement and T-Rex defends it by pointing out an extraneous issue, instead of acknowledging the obvious.

Why are working so hard to fulminate about what's not being said instead of trying to engage with what is?

No. It's neither bigoted nor stupid. I hope it's wrong, but I'm afraid that the author is seeing something real.

But of course it's more complicated than that. It's hardly just a question of military force. Under Hussein, there was very little civil society in Iraq, so it should be no surprise that the transition has been rough. We tried to support the opposition, and there just wasn't much there to support. I suspect things would have gone if the country had been run under UN auspices instead of by the Cato and Heritage Foundations. That would have been a use of military force, too.

Joe wilson
 

Why the Butler Report is not the last word on the subject.

Ty, I read the spin in Joe's letter. Enough, already. It's his - what - fourth or fifth go-around on the facts at hand, and after the Senate blasted him.

He's back on TV every day shifting his story yet again.

You want timetables of lies, go here , or all of Maguire's posts for a week here or, hell, even watch how Josh has changed his tune 4 times this week. That Wilson repeated lied is indisputable. Come on, already.

Let me say this about Rove, or Novak, or Miller, or whomever - if it's revealed that anyone during Fitzgerald's investigation actually committed perjury, then they need to suffer the legal consequences. Period.