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-   -   Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630)

Tyrone Slothrop 10-20-2004 06:26 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Sweet pea, I know. And I agree with you. But a lot of people want to roll them back because they feel that the regulation is worse than the mess created by common law tort stuff, or whatever. And, since I charge a zillion dollars an hour to interpret regulations for people, I have some sympathy for where they are coming from. And, some regulations unintentionally have bad side effects. But overall, I think having, oh, say, nondiscrimination standards for tax-preferred retirement savings is better than not regulating it. Or scrubbers in smokestacks. Or whatever.
Anyone who thinks we would be better off without government meat inspectors should be forced to read The Jungle while eating a hamburger in a third-world country.

Replaced_Texan 10-20-2004 06:27 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Well, my good and kind man, I'd suggest it has something to do with the understanding of the social compact. All of society, all of law, all of civilization, is a social compact. What was that book I read, oh yeah, Guns Germs and Steel, explains the development of humankind through different parts of the world, starting in Africa. Evolution, including societal evolution, is often based on no more than an accident of nature. Oops, did the early Africans kill off all the domesticatable mammals in the Beginning? Well, their descendants will do better in Asia. Just a gigantic series of accidents.
FWIW, I'm about halfway through GG&S, and I'm finding it to be a fascinating read.

R(a couple years behind in her reading list)T

Not Bob 10-20-2004 06:27 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I'll leave them alone - why won't they leave me alone? Why do they need to tell me what to do?
Because they can. And because people like you who care more about your wallet than being left alone vote for the GOP.

And, as the Poster Formerly Known As DebtSlave pointed out, the well-to-do can opt out of the intrusive social agenda pushed by the Puritans. They can be depraved in private parties (Gatsby had no problems getting Scotch for his parties, and Tom Buchanan had an apartment in the city) if the bars have to close early. College Republicans probably still have the best blow on campus.

This means that the GOP is usually more than happy to make that trade-off -- give us our tax cuts/sweetheart deals/pork, and we'll demonize the UnAmericans. And maybe throw you a bone or two on you if we have to and it doesn't inconvenience us too much.

sebastian_dangerfield 10-20-2004 06:29 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Well, my good and kind man, I'd suggest it has something to do with the understanding of the social compact. All of society, all of law, all of civilization, is a social compact. What was that book I read, oh yeah, Guns Germs and Steel, explains the development of humankind through different parts of the world, starting in Africa. Evolution, including societal evolution, is often based on no more than an accident of nature. Oops, did the early Africans kill off all the domesticatable mammals in the Beginning? Well, their descendants will do better in Asia. Just a gigantic series of accidents.

So, one day in the gathering stage (and in multiple societies), humans figured out how to leverage the battle for food through crop-cultivation etc. etc. etc. Next thing ya know, in every society someone steps up and says "hey, that Mountain just spoke to me, he says I'm the messenger". Literally, a cynic might think the original Priests were just trying to get out of their share of work (they were the first people excused from tending crops).

But the question is begged, why did people believe them when they stepped forward? In different places all over the world, some dude steps forward and says the Creator just spoke to him, and people buy into it. Its like, like, we want to believe in something.

Anyhoo, social contract. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. I agree to avenge your murder, you agree to avenge mine. Heck, we'll call the vengeance thing The Justice System. Otherwise, why the fuck do I care is your wife puts a hatchet through your skull? Its like a gigantic deal for society.

Welp, over time, people begin to think about whether the deal is fair. Some people begin to wonder, do we sell out some people? Next thing you know, slaves are being freed, women are getting the vote, gays are getting civil unions. People are all being allowed to buy into the system. That same instinct that tells someone, hey why should black people be bought and sold? Why shouldn't women be allowed to vote? Why shouldn't gays get civil unions? Well, that's the same instinct that tells others to help out society's defenseless others. I'm not sure there's a name for it, but I don't think I understand why anyone is opposed to it either. Why is someone opposed to helping out the defenseless in society?
I understand the social compact argument, but what we have now is a group of people (Group A) who know very little about the lives of certain others (Group B) trying to force their morals on Group B. That's not a compact - that's attempted tyranny. A compact presumes that the parties involved agree. What we've got now is a vehement minority trying to inflcit its views on the majority.

I take comfort in the fact that what is presently happening will cleanse the system. the Right is blowing its wad at the moment and when the moderates have had enough, we will see a long moderate rule. I don't even mention the Left because in my wiew, they're already dead and subsumed within the moderates. The Right should be careful. By becoming so extreme, its now taking on the moderates as well as the left, and thats a battle it can't win.

Say_hello_for_me 10-20-2004 06:31 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Not Bob
College Republicans probably still have the best blow on campus.
Fuck. I invented this.

andViolins 10-20-2004 06:31 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Long. Hello. Quote. That. I. Actually. Understood.
Ok, I can understand all of this in the context of abortion. Not that I necessarily agree with the position, but I understand it. However, it doesn't work with the whackjobs that are currently pressuring companies to stop advertising during ABC's Desparate Housewives. I look at sebby's framework and still come away wondering why these people don't turn off the t.v., go kayaking (hi bilmore!) or do anything else than worry about what Club is watching on a Sunday night. [don't deny it Club. I'm sure its one of your guilty pleasures.]

aV

andViolins 10-20-2004 06:34 PM

for Not Me
 
http://www.geocities.com/shelioness/fatted.jpg

aV

Replaced_Texan 10-20-2004 06:34 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Anyone who thinks we would be better off without government meat inspectors should be forced to read The Jungle while eat a hamburger in a third-world country.
I just want him to get a very long sentence, and I wouldn't be terribly upset if they give him the death penalty.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-20-2004 06:35 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by andViolins
Ok, I can understand all of this in the context of abortion. Not that I necessarily agree with the position, but I understand it. However, it doesn't work with the whackjobs that are currently pressuring companies to stop advertising during ABC's Desparate Housewives. I look at sebby's framework and still come away wondering why these people don't turn off the t.v., go kayaking (hi bilmore!) or do anything else than worry about what Club is watching on a Sunday night. [don't deny it Club. I'm sure its one of your guilty pleasures.]
If they knew they would be strong in the face of these modern social ills, they could chill and go kayaking. But it's hard to be strong. THey might be weak. Better not to find out.

Say_hello_for_me 10-20-2004 06:40 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by andViolins
Not that I necessarily agree with the position, but I understand it. However, it doesn't work with the whackjobs that are currently pressuring companies to stop advertising during ABC's Desparate Housewives. I look at sebby's framework and still come away wondering why these people don't turn off the t.v., go kayaking (hi bilmore!) or do anything else than worry about what Club is watching on a Sunday night. [don't deny it Club. I'm sure its one of your guilty pleasures.]

aV
I'm not sure he's really talking about Desparate Housewives, but you can ask him.

BTW, do you not agree to any of these parts:
1.) the social compact basis of all law?
2.) the inherent willingness to believe in a higher power?
3.) the moral/immoral basis for oppressing and freeing others?

sebastian_dangerfield 10-20-2004 06:41 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If they knew they would be strong in the face of these modern social ills, they could chill and go kayaking. But it's hard to be strong. THey might be weak. Better not to find out.
There are no social ills. These "ills" are not new. We're just now beginning to be a more honest society because we bring them to the surface and technology lets us hear about them more easily. The whole notion that we're somehow like Old Rome is ridiculous nonsense. People had all the perversions they do today 5000 years ago. These people who write to ABC want to turn back the clock to a time which never existed. They're arguing that we should be like Ostriches rather than be honest about reality. I don't know how you defend a positon that flawed. But I guess it explains a lot about why they're so shrill and flailing in thei condemnations - it must be a hell of thing to have to argue the absurd all the time on the national stage.

sebastian_dangerfield 10-20-2004 06:43 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I'm not sure he's really talking about Desparate Housewives, but you can ask him.

BTW, do you not agree to any of these parts:
1.) the social compact basis of all law?
2.) the inherent willingness to believe in a higher power?
3.) the moral/immoral basis for oppressing and freeing others?
What are these three things? How are you using them?

sgtclub 10-20-2004 06:44 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Not Bob
Because they can. And because people like you who care more about your wallet than being left alone vote for the GOP.
Please tell me how the how social GOP affects your daily life in an adverse way. Abortion is legal. What other complaints do you have.

sgtclub 10-20-2004 06:45 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by andViolins
[don't deny it Club. I'm sure its one of your guilty pleasures.]

aV
Haven't seen it yet. Is it good? I'm always down for trash TV.

Say_hello_for_me 10-20-2004 06:48 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
How are you using them?
Morally.

ltl/fb 10-20-2004 06:52 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Please tell me how the how social GOP affects your daily life in an adverse way.
Shades of Mussolini and he whose name shall not be invoked.

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub

Abortion is legal. What other complaints do you have.
I think it's important that the gov't not be allowed to do a whole lot of things that the PATRIOT Act, for example, allows them to do and most of the things they want to add to the PATRIOT Act. I think it's important that they not be able to hold ANYONE, regardless of nationality, for years on end without access to courts or lawyers. For example.

Similarly, I don't like a lot of the restrictions that have been put on abortions. You don't see mandatory waiting periods for getting a boob job or whatever. And mandatory waiting periods, while they don't affect me because I live in a large urban area and so can go to a clinic to register or whatever and then go straight to work, do affect people who live in more isolated areas and have to travel a long way.

Those are examples, not an exhaustive list.

baltassoc 10-20-2004 06:52 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Anyone who thinks we would be better off without government meat inspectors should be forced to read The Jungle while eating a hamburger in a third-world country.
Reading The Jungle is often redundant to the exercise.

I still don't know (and don't want to know) what was poking out of that sausage served to me in Latvia.

Diane_Keaton 10-20-2004 06:53 PM

for Not Me
 
Quote:

Originally posted by andViolins
http://www.geocities.com/shelioness/fatted.jpg

aV
I kind of like this one, myself.
http://terpsboy.com/blogpics/tedchap.jpg

andViolins 10-20-2004 06:58 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Haven't seen it yet. Is it good? I'm always down for trash TV.
Well, it has murder, drugs, adultery, violence and 4 very attractive women in it. The writing is pretty good and it seems to have a sustainable plot line for at least one season. Whats not to like?

Tyrone Slothrop 10-20-2004 07:09 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
There are no social ills. These "ills" are not new. We're just now beginning to be a more honest society because we bring them to the surface and technology lets us hear about them more easily. The whole notion that we're somehow like Old Rome is ridiculous nonsense. People had all the perversions they do today 5000 years ago. These people who write to ABC want to turn back the clock to a time which never existed. They're arguing that we should be like Ostriches rather than be honest about reality. I don't know how you defend a positon that flawed. But I guess it explains a lot about why they're so shrill and flailing in thei condemnations - it must be a hell of thing to have to argue the absurd all the time on the national stage.
While it's always been harder to keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen Paris, it's a lot easier to see Paris from the farm now. Also, technology has changed the farm a lot. For example, lots of blacks left the rural South for the urban North in this century -- dislocation produced by economic progress. This changes are threatening, and profound. How better to deal with it than by electing someone who promises to turn back the clock?

Not Bob 10-20-2004 07:09 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Please tell me how the how social GOP affects your daily life in an adverse way. Abortion is legal. What other complaints do you have.
Well, on a local level, I can't have a bloody mary with my brunch on Sunday at the Dew Drop Inn.

I am kinda leery about using my Visa to pay for salacious books (Exit to Eden type stuff and Barbara Cartlandt romances, mostly) at the local bookstore. Thanks, USA PATRIOT Act!

The local police like to take pictures of people at environmental and labor rallies. The people at Young Americans for Freedom and Promise Keepers events? Not so much.

Our schools don't teach sex ed anymore.

A county commissioner likes to have his church group demonstrate outside the Blockbuster when a movie with nekked women in it is released in VHS/DVD.

Some bastard keeps taking the shady parking spot in front of my office, and he has a W sticker on his rear window. With a Calvin praying in front of a cross sticker next to it.

Not Me 10-20-2004 07:15 PM

for Not Me
 
Quote:

Originally posted by andViolins
http://www.geocities.com/shelioness/fatted.jpg

aV
Thanks. You know, I never get tired of looking at that one.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-20-2004 07:16 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Please tell me how the how social GOP affects your daily life in an adverse way. Abortion is legal. What other complaints do you have.
And I thought you were Mr. Censorship Is Bad.

Bad_Rich_Chic 10-20-2004 07:19 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Not Bob
I am kinda leery about using my Visa to pay for salacious books (Exit to Eden type stuff and Barbara Cartlandt romances, mostly) at the local bookstore. Thanks, USA PATRIOT Act!
I admit, I pay cash for some of my more outre movie and book purchases. But then, I always did. I also watch how I use my MetroCard, my building pass cards, library card, internet accounts, etc. Always did. If the Patriot Act has made people more aware of (or paranoid about) how easy it is to track all kinds of private stuff, well, I can't say I think that's a bad thing. 'Cause, whether the regs say they can track it or not, the information is there, so they can.

BR(hunkering down to sneak under the radar of the Black Helicopters)C

sgtclub 10-20-2004 07:19 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
And I thought you were Mr. Censorship Is Bad.
I am. I just don't know what has been censored by the social conservatives. The only thing I can remember is the Howard Stern fines, but those occured during both DEM and GOP administrations so I'm not sure it is a really a social conservative issue.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-20-2004 07:22 PM

for Not Me
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
Thanks. You know, I never get tired of looking at that one.
Take it to the Fatty Board.

Not Me 10-20-2004 07:23 PM

Another Endoresement for Bush!!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by dtb
This ought to make the Bushies proud.

Iran endorses a second Bush term as better for Teheran's interests.

How come none of you Bush supporters pointed this out?
They are just using reverse psychology to get people to vote for Kerrey.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-20-2004 07:23 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
I am. I just don't know what has been censored by the social conservatives. The only thing I can remember is the Howard Stern fines, but those occured during both DEM and GOP administrations so I'm not sure it is a really a social conservative issue.
Janet Jackson, Howard Stern, that FOX reality show -- there's much more emphasis on this stuff recently, and the fines are larger. The effect is that you never see stuff you might want to watch, since speech is chilled.

sgtclub 10-20-2004 07:23 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Not Bob
Well, on a local level, I can't have a bloody mary with my brunch on Sunday at the Dew Drop Inn.
Where do you live? My bet is that the blue laws there are a function of historical precedents rather than anything else. In CA, you can't get served after 2:00 a.m. Seems to be that these are all just degrees of limits that are not really caused by the social conservatives.

Quote:

I am kinda leery about using my Visa to pay for salacious books (Exit to Eden type stuff and Barbara Cartlandt romances, mostly) at the local bookstore. Thanks, USA PATRIOT Act!
You should be, but not because of the Patriot Act. See BRC's post.

Quote:

The local police like to take pictures of people at environmental and labor rallies. The people at Young Americans for Freedom and Promise Keepers events? Not so much.
How is this an infringement on your freedom?

Quote:

Our schools don't teach sex ed anymore.
Nor should they. Parents should teach that. Or the internet, depending on your preference. But I would not want some hack teacher teaching my kids anything about sex. They have enough trouble teaching real subjects.

Quote:

A county commissioner likes to have his church group demonstrate outside the Blockbuster when a movie with nekked women in it is released in VHS/DVD.
Are you serious? Do you realize what you are saying here? You would curtail their rights to free speech in favor of your rights of what, convenience?

sgtclub 10-20-2004 07:24 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Janet Jackson, Howard Stern, that FOX reality show -- there's much more emphasis on this stuff recently, and the fines are larger. The effect is that you never see stuff you might want to watch, since speech is chilled.
Janet, while I don't agree with the fines or the chilling, I can kind of understand. What is the fox issue?

dtb 10-20-2004 07:26 PM

Another Endoresement for Bush!!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
They are just using reverse psychology to get people to vote for Kerrey.
Gosh. Those swarthies sure are crafty!

Tyrone Slothrop 10-20-2004 07:33 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Janet, while I don't agree with the fines or the chilling, I can kind of understand. What is the fox issue?
A $1.2 million fine proposed. See here.

sgtclub 10-20-2004 07:41 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
A $1.2 million fine proposed. See here.
Yea, that's bullshit, but I guess I still don't see it as a function of the social conservatives. The FCC has been fining this kind of stuff for decades.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-20-2004 07:44 PM

Caption Contest
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Yea, that's bullshit, but I guess I still don't see it as a function of the social conservatives. The FCC has been fining this kind of stuff for decades.
I don't think so. At least not like they have recently. As the article says, the FCC has been cracking down since the Janet Jackson thing.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-20-2004 07:51 PM

send me your $$$
 
I'm taking up a collection. Send me money, and I will buy the nicest case of wine I can with it, drink the wine, and send the cork to the Kerry campaign for them to put in THZ's mouth until after the election. I figure I can get bipartisan support for this one.

http://www.hannawinery.com/images/photos/bottle.gif

Gattigap 10-20-2004 07:56 PM

send me your $$$
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm taking up a collection. Send me money, and I will buy the nicest case of wine I can with it, drink the wine, and send the cork to the Kerry campaign for them to put in THZ's mouth until after the election. I figure I can get bipartisan support for this one.

http://www.hannawinery.com/images/photos/bottle.gif
What if we just send you cork?

SlaveNoMore 10-20-2004 08:04 PM

send me your $$$
 
Quote:

Tyrone Slothrop
I'm taking up a collection. Send me money, and I will buy the nicest case of wine I can with it, drink the wine, and send the cork to the Kerry campaign for them to put in THZ's mouth until after the election. I figure I can get bipartisan support for this one.

http://www.hannawinery.com/images/photos/bottle.gif
If I could send a pen to the RNC, I don't see why not.

sgtclub 10-20-2004 08:06 PM

send me your $$$
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm taking up a collection. Send me money, and I will buy the nicest case of wine I can with it, drink the wine, and send the cork to the Kerry campaign for them to put in THZ's mouth until after the election. I figure I can get bipartisan support for this one.

http://www.hannawinery.com/images/photos/bottle.gif
I think I'm the only one that likes her. She cracks me up. She's so above it all and doesn't give a fuck, just says what's on her mind.

SlaveNoMore 10-20-2004 08:07 PM

Just a Reminder....
 
http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/02/77/25/image_525772.jpg

"We've been waiting since 1918 for the Boston Red Sox to win the World Series, and if I had a choice between the White House and the World Series this year, I'm going to take the White House. How's that?"

-- Sen. John Kerry, Taylor, MI, August 1, 2004

Not Me 10-20-2004 08:09 PM

send me your $$$
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
I think I'm the only one that likes her. She cracks me up. She's so above it all and doesn't give a fuck, just says what's on her mind.
Is it a good idea to let her anywhere near the button?


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