thinking of you all.
 

I don't recall having taken a position on this before, but you've convinced me. While we're at it, can we also go back to calling it what we used to call it when one nation sends its army to another nation and stays there?

thinking of you all.
 

my country, right or wrong?

thinking of you all.
 

If you like, but that's going to fuck up your W/L record.

thinking of you all.
 

you know when we set up this place after infirm, we intentionally dropped all regional boards for foreign lawyers. i mean, you get this is a board for americans, right?

thinking of you all.
 

I don't know who might rethink their positions but I suspect people think "suicide bomber" b/c the homicide occurs as a result of the suicide (the dude blowing up becomes the weapon itself). But...you already know my position on suicide/homicide bombers and their apologists (my favorite: "these people have nothing and this is the only thing they can do to speak out"). More interesting (to me at least) was this quote from the woman in whose home the gunner was living, describing what she did after the gunner told her he was going to be famous and it was "all explained in the notes in my room":

Maruka-Kovac said she found the notes, called Hawkins' mother and then the police.

So this Maruka woman finds the notes but instead of calling the police right away, she calls the killer's Mom. I wonder how long that call was? And if she called police right away, could anyone have been saved?

thinking of you all.
 

If you don't like it when our media refers to suicide bombers, why don't you move to Somalia?

thinking of you all.
 

Somalia calls the Palis homicide bombers? I know it's Repealed Prohibition Day, but cocktails should start after lunch (or during).

thinking of you all.
 

When they start killing people in malls, they call them homicide shoppers. Or so I hear.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

At the risk of stating the obvious here, the reason people react negatively to Fox's asinine use of "homicide" bombing has nothing to with one's political views and everything to do with the fact that, unless you're an imbecile, "homicide" need not be used as an adjective before the word "bombing." However, there can be numerous types of bombings, one subset of which, where the bomber kills himself, is known as a "suicide" bombing.

When Fox uses "homicide" bombing, or our Congress changes French fries to "freedom" fries, it plays to the lowest common denominator of blind "patriotic" idiot in this country. And it angers me because it advertises to the rest of the world that we are simple, self-righteous and possibly dumb enough to actually buy into a sense of divine Manifest Destiny that drives people like Zell Miller stand on national television at the GOP Convetion and claim "God is not indifferent to the United States of America."

So yeh, Hank. I think people who accept "homicide bomber" as a anything but unintentional and pathetic humor are idiots. That doesn't include the people using it at Fox, however. They are smart businessmen, milking an idiot marketplace. And laughing all the way to the bank.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

This is definitely not a logical explanation of the choice of using "suicide" bomber versus "homicide" bomber. But whatever. More importantly, considering the major snafus by certain other networks reflecting bias, I wouldn't give Fox such a hard time over its reporting. Or its audience either.

thinking of you all.
 

I'm with you in spirit, but "Colony" requires that the people invaded be under the control of an operating colonial government. We don't even have that. Hell, we don't even have the fucking cheap oil spigot they promised us.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

I remember wonk, i think, had a strong reaction to homicide bombers, but i forget why.

but "homicide" need not be used*, because all bombs are intended to kill, so all bombers are killers, and thus the only adjective that makes sense is "suicide" since that distinguishes from the guys who, say, blow up a roadside bomb remotely.

Okay. that at least makes sense, but it seems a silly thing to get angry about. I can see getting angry about "freedom fries" actually, way more than calling a guy a "homicide bomber".

*no one uses it to modify the act, the "bombing," it is used to modify the actor.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

It's absolutely logical. All bombings seek to kill people or disable targets, which necessarily involves killing people. Accordingly, all bombings have a homicidal intent or at least a high likelihood of causing homicide via collateral damage. As a practical matter of language and logic, bombings are homicidal. Were this a declaratory judgment action where I was asked to prove that in a court, I wouldn't have much problem convincing a jury "bombing" and "homicide" are synonymous in our common usage of the terms. Almost full synonyms.

I didn't say the Big Three aren't biased in their reporting. Keith Olbermann plays to an ignorant and self-righteous wing of blue staters. Fox, however, has selected as its market niche an awful lot of red state morons. That's just a fact.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

Suicide bombings are different because the attacker is willing to die to kill others. This means that they are particularly difficult to deter, and that they resonate more as a PR matter. Calling them "homicide bombings" is an attempt to will the problem away by ignoring what makes them different from other bombings, and a manifestation of a broader foolish belief that hard policy problems can be solved by manipulating press coverage.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

I get angry about it because it is an insidious attempt to convey a sense of righteousness in our position which does not exist.

The need to "morally" justify our moves annoys me. That's a small minded way of looking at something far more complex than Joe Six Pack's simplistic moral totems. No one wears a white hat in geopolitical maneuverings or wars. It's survival of the fittest. No right, no wrong. Countries do what they do to survive and prosper. We can't even grow up and realize that. We have to make it the guys in the white hats vs. the guys in the black hats. And Fox cheerleads those simplifications with that sort of wordplay.

You might say "its just semantics." Yes. Propaganda is just words. Meaningless words, which through history have never, ever caused any problems for anyone...

"Homicide Bombers"
 

Bombing is not necessarily synonymous with homicide. Bombing a building after it's cleared of people is a bombing but not a homicide (think IRA here). Yes, the bloke assigned to make sure the building is empty might have missed the drunk in the basement passed out on floor, but that's a POSSIBILITY not a given. I can bomb something easily without killing anyone. If I were the judge and you requested the court take judicial notice that bombing means homicide, I'd say no. You wouldn't appeal that would you?

"Homicide Bombers"
 

I think that Diane's point was the best one -- the reason they are called "suicide bombers" is because now the bombers themselves are the weapon. This distinguishes them from the PLO and IRA and ETA (etc.) terrorist bombers of the past, who blew other people up without (intentionally, anyway) blowing themselves up in the process.

The fact that they are willing to die to deliver the bomb to the target makes them that much more difficult to prevent and detect.

And, if Fox was around in 1945, would we have this debate about the term "kamikaze pilot"? [Bill O'Reilly]There's nothing "divine" about these murderous Nip bastards.[/Bill O'Reilly]

"Homicide Bombers"
 

that's not true. It is an attempt to emphasize their true intent, to address the fear that a "suicide bomber" will be seen as somehow on a higher plane than a guy blowing up people from a distance. even the dumbest red state guy knows that a "homicide bomber" is much harder to stop because he is the delivery system.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

Ahhh, of course. I've neglected to make the hypothetical airtight, so you've taken exactly the argument I assumed you would.

Look, in this simple context, bombing is synonymous with homicide. I was talking about the public's general, common understanding of the word "bombing," which 999 out of 1000 people would say includes a homicidal intent.

You have selected an exception which is far divorced from this context, and is probably known to what? The .03% of society with an in depth knowledge of the conflict in Northern Ireland?

Bombings as known and understood in common parlance are homicidal or likely to cause homicide. Hence, at the bare minimum, "homicide bombing" ads a sensless and unecessary description.

Think of the expression "basket case." That's along the lines of what "homicide bombing" sounds like.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

To me, this is where the distinction lies (not that bombing equals homicide). I agree that saying "suicide bombing" resonates as a PR matter, but I'm not sure whose PR agenda is fulfilled. For me, hearing "suicide bomber" drives home the fact that *certain* groups of people (usually Muslims) are pathetic enough to strap bombs on kids in order to blow up as many adults and kids as possible. It also makes me think about who is funding these escapades (or paying for the suicide bomber's funeral). Hearing "suicide bomber" doesn't evoke any sympathy. I don't mind the term at all.

But if Fox news wants to use homicide bomber to focus the crime on the homicide victims, why should I care? When you hear about Israeli parents sifting through a streetful of body parts trying to put back together their toddlers, why does anyone care that Fox is using "homicide bomber"? Because folks might (gasp) side with the victims? I don't see anything unfair about the term and don't see any unfair stuff that's being "whipped up" among supposedly stupid red-staters. (Yes, this is a reply to Sebby's post too. I'm lazy like that).

"Homicide Bombers"
 

Agreed.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

STP

"Homicide Bombers"
 

I'll stand with NotBob and agree with Diane.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

Diane, I have to quibble with your second point about how we should side with the victims. But I think that's implied.

But the problem with "homicide bomber" is it sounds, generally speaking, stupid. It's as though Fox were too stupid to understand that "suicide bomber" is just a way of describing a certain type of bomber. It's a dumb knee-jerkresponse that assumes the word "suicide bomber" is some leftist term coined by CNN or Reuters to give gravitas to those bombers. It's clearly not. It's just a descriptive.

Now, Fox isn't stupid. But they know a lot of their audience is. So what they've done is play to the dim bastards who think "suicide bomber" is a Lefty term. Really, at the end of the day, its nothing more than a trick of branding. Fox is trying, cynically, to distinguish itself by purposefully misconstruing a vanilla, descriptive term. And it knows how idiotic "homicide bomber" sounds, yet it pushes the term anyway, because it knows that to a certain uneducated sector of our society, using "homicide bomber" looks like the network is "taking a stand against all them damned lefties."

The term "homicide bomber" doesn't offend me so much as it saddens me. We have a nation of people who can so easily be cowed with these slick propaganda tricks? It's upsetting.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

does it's use make you more or less sad than in November 2000 when Hillary said "We need to do away with the electoral college." I mean Fox is in the business of selling; she could get to be president.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

I have nothing against Fox calling them homicide bombers. Fox has done so many stupider things, why get exercised over this one?

But, for consistency's sake, I think they should also refer to "homicide shooters", "homicide killers" and "homicide jacks".

Any suggestions on appropriate adjectives for Fox commentators?

"Homicide Bombers"
 

Why did you throw this pile of apples into a discussion of oranges?

I agree with you that Hillary is an awful, frightening candidate. And I am as disgusted that she might be able to bullshit the nation into electing her as I am that Fox bullshits viewers.

They are parts of the same problem, and it is incurable. And it is why when I have enough money I will be purchasing a compound where I will hide. Naked and loaded and forgetting, forgetting, forgetting.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

What he said. It's also become another little code word that right wingers can use to identify themselves to each other, like "Democrat Party." When you hear someone going out of their way to use terms like that you know that the rest of the party line can't be far behind.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

like arguing about it's use is a code for you guys.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

The only one who has a strong feeling on this one is Sebby. The rest of us are just snickering at you.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

No it's not. I'm a registered Libertarian who has voted both D and R in the past. I'm not one of "you guys." I'm a person who simply doesn't like bullshit branding tricks.

This isn't a D or an R issue. This is a matter of people calling a network onto the carpet for a reckless policy that damages our political discourse.

When the Ds practice similar propaganda by refusing to print or discuss stories about successes in Iraq they're just as culpable, and I would not accuse you of talking in "code" for criticizing them.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

Well you should have a strong feeling on this one. This sort of bullshit is a lot more damaging than you think. The level of political discourse is directly tied to the political health of the nation.

We've had a President who's succeeded in passing all sorts of wrongheaded policies by cleverly branding them as something other than what they were (often by branding them with names evoking images diametrically opposed to their aims).

You bitch about our President more than anyone here, but you give a pass to the propaganda mill? Here's a tip. The GOP isn't a pile of evil geniuses. The country's fucking stupid. That a network can get away with insidious shit like "homicide bomber" and DailyKos, Rush Limbaugh, Tonwhall and MoveOn are the biggest sources of political discussion proves it's only getting worse.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

Not too bothered by it, really, and I don't argue with people who use it. It's actually pretty useful in that it saves time you might otherwise waste in a longer conversation before realizing that your interlocutor is an idiot.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

I think you're saying that the term used by Fox News is reactionary and not original (it is a term inherently critical of the term "suicide bomber.") If so, I agree. But I don't think Fox viewers are bunch of toothless idiots, or that they are catering to stupidity. Unless you think those who vote Republican are all toothless idiots. I hear a lot of presumptions about red-staters being stupid and "simplistic" but I have never bought that.

"Homicide Bombers"
 

I know some people laughed at "suicide shopper."

"Homicide Bombers"
 

maybe in Jersey bars using big words makes you seem smarter, but not so much here.

thinking of you all.
 

My basic position is that the semantics don't matter much. Call him whatever you wish if it makes you feel better, and God Bless You for it. Essentially all such bombers are murderers or attempted murderers.

I don't think the term "suicide bomber" was created out of some kind of sympathy for the bombers -- but to distinguish a certainly relatively new style of murderous attack which has come onto the scene in the past 20 years or so.

[Query: If a dude packs a car with explosives and detonates it by remote control, is he a "homicide bomber" or just a "bomber"? Does it depend on the casualties? Please don't waste too much time thinking about this.]

S_A_M

thinking of you all.
 

if this thread ever ends can this be the next title? it will remind us all of perhaps the best advice all day today.

thinking of you all.
 

I've never named a thread before, but it would be a good title.

S_A_M

"Homicide Bombers"
 

Yes on the first point.

I don't think Fox viewers are toothless idiots either. Nor do I think red staters or Republicans are toothless idiots (having voted Republican, that would be an odd criticism). But there is a huge toothless idiot audience that term is targeted to appease, and a lot of it is located in red states.