Differences Between Left and Right
 

From Denis Prager's 10/14 column:

The Left believes in removing America's Judeo-Christian identity, e.g., removing "under God" from the Pledge, "In God we trust" from the currency, the oath to God and country from the Boy Scouts Pledge, etc.

The Right believes that destroying these symbols and this identity is tantamount to destroying America.

The Left regards America as morally inferior to many European societies with their abolition of the death penalty, cradle-to-grave welfare and religion-free life; and it does not believe that there are distinctive American values worth preserving.

The Right regards America as the last best hope for humanity and believes that there are distinctive American values -- the unique combination of a religious (Judeo-Christian) society, a secular government, personal liberty and capitalism -- worth fighting and dying for.

The Left believes that impersonal companies, multinational and otherwise, with their insatiable drive for profits, have a profoundly destructive effect on the country.

The Right believes that the legal system, particularly trial lawyers, lawsuits and judges who make laws, is the greater threat to American society.

The Left believes multiculturalism should be the ideal for American schools and for government policy.

The Right believes that the Americanization of all its citizens is indispensable to the survival of the United States.

The Left believes that the Boy Scouts as currently constituted pose a moral threat to society.

The Right believes the Boy Scouts continue to be one of the greatest moral institutions in the country.

The Left believes in equality more than in liberty. The Right believes more in liberty. For example, the Left believes that for the equality's sake, men's clubs must accept women. The Right believes that for liberty's sake, associations must be free to choose their own members.

The Left believes that when schools give out condoms to teenagers, they are promoting safe sex.

The Right believes that when schools give out condoms, they are promoting more sex.

The Left believes that poverty, racism and psychopathology cause violent crime.

The Right believes a lack of self-control, lack of religious practice and lack of good values are the primary causes of violent crime.

The Left believes that "war is not the answer." The Right believes that war is often the only answer to governmental evil.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Do you actually agree with this, or is this intended as satire?

Differences Between Left and Right
 

The Left believes that sgt club believes this.

The Right does not understand how anyone could not believe it.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Not categorically, but if you insert "FAR" before "LEFT" and "RIGHT" I think it is generally true. I just found it interesting and, since no one had posted for a while, I thought it might rev things up.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Sgtclub believes you should be more specific. Which of the items do you believe are not an objective statement?

Differences Between Left and Right
 

I would propose a parody contest, but something similar is happening on the FB. Besides, Atticus would win, anyway.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

The one on the FB is a little too insider for me, but there has to be something we can do to entertain ourselves.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Here's one that stuck me as a non-objective, full of crap statement:

"The Left regards America as morally inferior to many European societies with their abolition of the death penalty, cradle-to-grave welfare and religion-free life; and it does not believe that there are distinctive American values worth preserving."


To the contrary, I think that the Left believes that there are many distinctive American values worth preserving. They just have a list that differs in many respects from that of "the Right." __ As represented by the list Prager created. (Did it include individual liberty? } I also doubt that most anyone would say that we are morally inferior to Europe. BTW -- what kind of ignorant baboon is he to think that most European states have "religion-free" lives?

Plus -- I doubt that the Left would criticize the Boy Scouts a being "threat" to the "moral fiber" of our nation. [If I remembered it right.] Even though they are a closed-minded and intolerant organization for excluding gay scouts, gay scoutmasters, and atheists.

Club -- the real tip-off that the list as a whole is not "objective" -- though he may have tried to make it so -- is because it was easy for me to tell which side he considers himself to be on -- even though I'd never heard of him.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Here's an attempt at a less biased summary:

The Left believes that the first Amendment is critical to the American way of life, and that free speech and respect for diverse viewpoints is part of what makes this country great.

The Right believes that free speech is fine but national security comes first. Free speech also should not be used to say anything unAmerican.

The Left regards America as the foundation of democracy and liberty; and wishes that we were more active in promoting these values abroad.

The Right regards America as a sovereign entity under assault from the rest of the world, and believes that we generally should conduct our foreign policy based on our self-interest rather than our principles.

The Left believes that the pursuit of profit is not the sole purpose of life, and that it is important that we use our resources to benefit everyone, not merely those able to amass control over large institutions.

The Right believes that the pure pursuit of profit will in and of itself result in the greatest social good, and that government has no role to play in assisting individuals in need or in sponsoring, supporting or encouraging activities that benefit the whole of society.

The Left believes multiculturalism should be the ideal for American schools and for government policy.

The Right believes that the Americanization of all its citizens is indispensable to the survival of the United States.

The Left believes that gays should not be discriminated against.

The Right believes that gays should not be protected from discrimination by any public body.

The Left believes that a fundamental role of government is to live up to its ideals. The Right believes that a fundamental role of government is to live up to its ideals. The Left and Right disagree on what those ideals are. For example, the Left believes that government should not support institutions, such as private clubs, that discriminate based on race, gender or sexual preference. The Right believe that government should not support institutions, including hospitals and clinics, that participate in abortions, and that schools that bar army recruiters who will discriminate on the basis of sexual preference should be barred from receiving federal funds.


The Left believes that when schools give out condoms to teenagers as part of an educational program, they are providing safety for sexual activities that are likely to occur anyways.

The Right believes that when schools give out condoms, they are promoting more sex. The right has no interest in sex education in schools; that should be done at home and church.

The Left believes that poverty, racism and psychopathology are among the causes of violent crime, and that both social and individual issues need to be addressed to fight crime.

The Right believes a lack of self-control, lack of religious practice and lack of good values are the primary causes of violent crime, and that only individual issues need to be addressed to fight crime.

The Left and Right, each with certain significant exceptions, believe that war may be an appropriate response at certain times and in certain places. The Left and Right disagree on what those times and places are.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Okay, but I suggest something a little more ambitious than just changing the words to someone else's ditty. Let's search the web for Goofus and Gallant panels that most adequately match the Left vs. Right descriptions in the original. Bonus points for color!

Differences Between Left and Right
 

And G^3 believes that Sgt. Club is going to miss out on his opportunities with Fringey, who was sounding like she was in the market for his goods yesterday.

(Apologies; this post reflects the fact that I've been spending too much time on the FB lately).

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Remember, I'm on the left. I lack ambition.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

I don't necessarily disagree with you; certainly there is some shading going on. But I would ask whether his characterization of the left is wholly untrue (based on your beliefs) or whether you do not fall within the left he is talking about? As I posted above, I believe if you put "FAR" before "LEFT," the statements closer approach reality.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Not sure what you mean here, but sounds intriquing.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Doubtful. Everytime I get her not to hate me, I say something that gets, errr, sets her off again.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Here's a sample Goofus and Gallant:

http://infoweb.newsbank.com/elementa.../hd980339b.htm

They were surpisingly difficult to find. Highlights must protect G&G pretty well. We may have to do the Timbertoes instead.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Oh I get it now. That would be very ambituous. I assume Timertoes are similiar?

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Well, you've heard from all of us on the left that we view these as misrepresenting our positions - how did I do on yours in my summary?

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Not a bad first draft. My additions are in ALL CAPS. Brackets represent deletions. Let's take the first one first. We can move on to others later.

I note that these DO NOT necessarily represent all of my views; rather, just my views of the respective beliefs of the left and right.

The Left believes that the first Amendment is critical to the American way of life, and that free speech and respect for diverse viewpoints is part of what makes this country great, EXCEPT IF THE SPEECH IS COMMERICAL SPEECH AND EXCEPT IF THE SPEECH IS POLITICALLY INCORRECT.

The Right believes that free speech is [fine but national security comes first] CRITICAL TO THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE AND IS WHAT MAKES THIS COUNTRY GREAT. HOWEVER, THE FIRST AMENDMENT IS NOT UNLIMITED AND CERTAIN INFRINGEMENTS, AT TIMES, ARE NECESSARY BASED ON THE RESPECTIVE INTERESTS INVOLVED. FOR EXAMPLE, AN ALLEGED TERRORIST SHOULD NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO FREELY COMMUNICATE WITH OTHER TERRORISTS IF DOING SO REASONABLY THREATENS NATIONAL SECURITY. THE RIGHT ALSO PREFERS THAT Free speech not be used to say anything unAmerican, BUT GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT PROSECUTE THOSE WHO EXERCISE THIS RIGHT, SO LONG AS NATIONAL SECURITY IS NOT REASONABLY THREATENED.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Can you give me an example of a mainstream leftist institution seeking to use government power to silence speech on the basis of "politically incorrect"* content since, say, 1993?**

*I still have no idea what this means, but for purposes of your answer please use whatever definition suits you and we'll go from there.

**Not to be taken as a tacit admission that it was prevalent before that time, but I want to avoid a discussion of wrongheaded public university speech codes, which have been roundly criticized from left and right since 1993.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Your additions on the description of the Left don't work; these are hotly debated issues within the left and you're trying to characterize the whole left based on them. I think I could get pretty universal agreement on the statement I made fromt he Left, however.

On the statement about the Right, you see the urge that everyone, left and right, has whenever someone tries to simplify your beliefs, and I could do it with the statement on the left as well and it would then more accurately reflect my own personal beliefs.

There is always a "...but" because none of us limit our beliefs on these issues to two lines. I know I asked about your own beliefs and not the Right as a whole, but don't you think a lot of folks on the right would disagree with you on the notion that "government should not prosecute those..." and argue that anarchism and communism are inherantly a threat to national security? I know this was a hallmark of the right I grew up around.

But I will not burden you with Goldwater's views, and in turn would ask that you refrain from oversimplifying my position on the first amendment to suggest that I, as an avowed leftist, would limit the application of the first amendment to protect non-"PC" speach, whatever that is (is that like saying things that are unAmerican?).

the Empire Strikes Back
 

Final - Yankees 4 Boston 2

Boo fucking hoo.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Curious. I believe I was the one defending telemarketers on these boards (as well as my beloved Jehovah's Witnesses).

Now my political beliefs fall about where Jimmy Carter's did. So why was I the only one defending telemarketers? Where were all you right-wingers?

the Empire Strikes Back
 

I love October.

And all those classy Yankees fans!

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Speech codes are exactly what I had in mind, and it's my understanding that they are still in effect at many universities that accept federal funds. So, if it is fair to use the acceptance of federal funds for determining whether there is a church/state separation issue, I thought it appropriate here.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

I'm not sure I understand the second point. Here in Boston, Boston College is clearly a Jesuit institution and also gets lots of federal funds. Who has argued that it should not?

There are separate issues on parochial high schools, but there the question is not should they be eligible for grants on the same basis as other private schools, but rather should they be eligible for full funding akin to public schools. And the issue is local funds not federal funds. I'd pose that this is a very different and more complex issue.

the Empire Strikes Back
 

Sucks to lose, doesn't it?

I wonder how many beanballs we'll see tomorrow if the Yanks get an early lead?

s4e

Differences Between Left and Right
 

I could say the same for your characterization of the right. Remember, that a fairly large minority of the right is on the right because they are liberatarian.

These are not my beliefs, as I said in my intro. I am essentially a purist on the 1st amendment, with the exception of national security. These are my views of the views of the left and right, generally speaking.

That's not how I view the right. Sure there may be some that hold that view, but certainly not the majority.

I think you are taking this too personally. I'm trying to get to a point where we all can agree on the general positions of the left and right. I have no idea what your views are.

the Empire Strikes Back
 

Wait for Pedro for the beanballs. I don't think Burkett is known for them. The Globe made the point this morning that $50,000 may be alot for one beanball, but amortized over all the beanballs it doesn't come to that much.

As I said this am, I wasn't defending Pedro, but criticizing your bullpen bullies.

And I've supported losing teams before (I grew up a Mets fan); builds character. Try it some time.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

You miss my point. I am not (at this time) arguing a church state issue. Atticus asked what government institutions have restricted politically correct speech (or something to that effect) and my response focused on universities where speech codes exist. Because universities are not governments per se, I was using the federal funds analogy in the church/state context to suggest that, when a university accepts federal funds, it is acting like a quasi governmental entity.*

*Any resemblance to Con Law terms is strictly coincidental. I have limited knowledge of the case law in this area.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

I thought on the whole I did a respectable job characterizing the right. I tried not to characterize unfairly. So how would you summarize the right in a statement the same length as the one on the left?

Sorry, skimmed there (but not the whole post). Apologies.

I was looking for a consensus position. It may be that there is none. I've heard a lot of folks on the right take very strongly to the view that "unAmerican" statements should not be protected.

Maybe. But I have yet to see you come up with a two line position on the first amendment that represents the Right. Is this a fool's errand?

Differences Between Left and Right
 

This is a dangerous path for a modern Republican to walk. For every Vassar-with-a-no-hate-speech-code,* there's a Georgetown-with-a-no-student-newspaper-editorials-in-support-of-Roe-v-Wade. If you deny federal funds (what does that mean? NSF research grants?) to one, you have to deny them to all. It's easy for a libertarian purist to say "No federal funds, then" but those of us who live in the real world have to live with the consequences of that. Must religious colleges turn down all government research grants in order to teach their religion?

*I'd still like to see which private universities still have these, and what their terms are (i.e., whether they pass the Chaplinsky test). I don't have the patience to read 500 student handbooks.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

I said I missed the point - I didn't understand the point and am still fuzzy on it. So are you saying that the "group on the left" you are identifying is "universities" or "the people who got universities to adopt these"; if so, I don't think you need to even use the federal fund analogy since I don't think anyone tries to limit their thinking to be about "state action".

Differences Between Left and Right
 

I am only a Republican because of the 2 parties they come the closest to representing me on the issues I care most about. I suspect that on many issues (e.g., free speech, gay rights) I am as liberal as you are.

In my mind, the Vasser and Georgetown policies are equally reprehensible and should both be abolished or federal funds should be denied, and I am willing to live with the consequences of that (which, of course, would be that the codes/policies would go away).

The religion issue, in my mind, is different, because I do not read the establishment clause in the same way I am guessing that you do. But if I had to make a choice, I would be consistent and say the same thing (i.e., if you want to teach religion, then don't accept federal funds).

Differences Between Left and Right
 

I have no doubt you made an honest attempt, but go back and reread it. It is definitely prejudicial to the right.

Here's an attempt, though in rereading it, I think it works for both right and left.

The Right believes that the first Amendment is critical to the American way of life, but that, at times, the rights of the individual to speak freely are outweighed by the rights of the people as a whole to be secure.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

"The Right believes that free speech should continue to exist in the same general legal context that prevailed on December 15, 1791 when Virginia supplied the required three-quarters vote for ratification of the Bill of Rights. As a result, the Right believes that national security and the suppression of sedition are always compelling state interests, leaving the only question whether proposed governmental controls are narrowly tailored."

the Empire Strikes Back
 

I did. See the NY Yankees circa 1970-1976; 1981-1995.

I believe it was the second of those periods when everyone around me was wearing a Mets jersey of one of the cokeheads [a/k/a Gooden, Strawberry and Hernandez]. Frontrunners all.

the Empire Strikes Back
 

Don't worry, those days will come again.

Differences Between Left and Right
 

Ahem, don't fall for their marxist murder marcher tricks! They are as conservative as you are on these issues, not the other way around. Isn't a 21st century conservative all about personal liberty and equal treatment? To me it is, and these two fall right in line.

Hello

Differences Between Left and Right
 

OK, I buy that for the right. I'd leave off the qualification for the left; I don't think we would get consensus on it. If I'm willing to concede a qualificaiton on freedom of speech or religion, I would focus on speech likely to result in immediate bodily harm (e.g., yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre). I would put up with no limits on political speech -- if we must limit it, we lose what we are fighting for.

I do think there are some who would limit "hate speech" on the left; I say, let people pursue their traditional civil remedies on such speech, and, more importantly, on any actions that occur as a result of or simultaneously with the speech, but don't prohibit the speech.