LawTalkers

LawTalkers (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/index.php)
-   Politics (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   Meet your new thread, same as the old thread. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=781)

SlaveNoMore 12-06-2007 02:12 PM

thinking of you all.
 
Quote:

Tyrone Slothrop
When they start killing people in malls, they call them homicide shoppers. Or so I hear.
Your jokes are much better than your politics.

Hank Chinaski 12-06-2007 02:14 PM

thinking of you all.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Your jokes are much better than your politics.
umm, that was my joke, but thanks.

SlaveNoMore 12-06-2007 02:16 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Any suggestions on appropriate adjectives for Fox commentators?
Generally speaking? Or compared with the competition at CNN?

If the latter, I'll go with "ethical" and "competent"

SlaveNoMore 12-06-2007 02:26 PM

thinking of you all.
 
Quote:

Hank Chinaski
umm, that was my joke, but thanks.
But I expect you to be funny.

[whereas I don't expect you to be a whiny, pouty sissy - so stop]

Tyrone Slothrop 12-06-2007 03:16 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
that's not true. It is an attempt to emphasize their true intent, to address the fear that a "suicide bomber" will be seen as somehow on a higher plane than a guy blowing up people from a distance. even the dumbest red state guy knows that a "homicide bomber" is much harder to stop because he is the delivery system.
Look, in this simple context, bombing is synonymous with homicide.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-06-2007 03:19 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
To me, this is where the distinction lies (not that bombing equals homicide). I agree that saying "suicide bombing" resonates as a PR matter, but I'm not sure whose PR agenda is fulfilled. For me, hearing "suicide bomber" drives home the fact that *certain* groups of people (usually Muslims) are pathetic enough to strap bombs on kids in order to blow up as many adults and kids as possible. It also makes me think about who is funding these escapades (or paying for the suicide bomber's funeral). Hearing "suicide bomber" doesn't evoke any sympathy. I don't mind the term at all.

But if Fox news wants to use homicide bomber to focus the crime on the homicide victims, why should I care? When you hear about Israeli parents sifting through a streetful of body parts trying to put back together their toddlers, why does anyone care that Fox is using "homicide bomber"? Because folks might (gasp) side with the victims? I don't see anything unfair about the term and don't see any unfair stuff that's being "whipped up" among supposedly stupid red-staters. (Yes, this is a reply to Sebby's post too. I'm lazy like that).
Fox is trying to emphasize the deaths of the victims, rather than that of the bomber, and while I understand the reason for it, as a policy matter the death of the bomber matters quite a bit. Why should you care? Because it's harder to stop people who are planning to kill themselves. Because it suggests a level of desperation in our enemy that has implications for how we fight the war. Not necessarily because you should sympathize with the plight of the bomber, though I think that's what Fox and Hank are worried about.

eta: I'm not bothered that Fox would call them "homicide bombers," but I am bothered that people who are so profoundly unserious about these things would have any influence on the intellectual or political climate in this country.

Hank Chinaski 12-06-2007 04:14 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Look, in this simple context, bombing is synonymous with homicide.
do I write in some form of english that is different from you use, because I think maybe I do.

SlaveNoMore 12-06-2007 04:19 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Tyrone Slothrop
eta: I'm not bothered that Fox would call them "homicide bombers," but I am bothered that people who are so profoundly unserious about these things would have any influence on the intellectual or political climate in this country.
IMHO, the distinction occurs when the news service in question totals the bombers in the number of victims.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-06-2007 04:25 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
do I write in some form of english that is different from you use, because I think maybe I do.
Did Sebby already respond to this question?

Tyrone Slothrop 12-06-2007 04:26 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
IMHO, the distinction occurs when the news service in question totals the bombers in the number of victims.
You object to them reporting (accurately) that "x are dead" where x is a number including the suicide bomber?

Hank Chinaski 12-06-2007 04:30 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Did Sebby already respond to this question?
first you said Fox calls them that to hide the real problem, then you said it was a redundant term. your second post echoed what I had said about 10 AM this morning.

Should I start correcting you by taking random sentences from the middle of your posts and replying with them?

SlaveNoMore 12-06-2007 04:41 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Tyrone Slothrop
You object to them reporting (accurately) that "x are dead" where x is a number including the suicide bomber?
Yes. Because - contrary to your point, and you know this - they dont just say "X are dead"

Reuters will have a headline "26 Victims in Suicide Attack" - and then buried in the article you will learn that 25 children were killed when some thug blew himself up.

The murderer is not a "victim"

Tyrone Slothrop 12-06-2007 04:46 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
first you said Fox calls them that to hide the real problem, then you said it was a redundant term. your second post echoed what I had said about 10 AM this morning.

Should I start correcting you by taking random sentences from the middle of your posts and replying with them?
(a) Fox is not "hiding" the real problem. Fox is more concerned with striking a pose of sympathy with the victims than it is with giving viewers useful information about the world.

(b) My ("my") post repeated a sentence from Sebby's post. Had you perceived this, you probably would not have bothered to respond, and fairly so.

Gattigap 12-06-2007 04:47 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Yes. Because - contrary to your point, and you know this - they dont just say "X are dead"

Reuters will have a headline "26 Victims in Suicide Attack" - and then buried in the article you will learn that 25 children were killed when some thug blew himself up.

The murderer is not a "victim"
Fortunately, this can be easily solved through a "excepting the bomber, of course, who killed himself. The fucking coward" macro.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-06-2007 04:58 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Yes. Because - contrary to your point, and you know this - they dont just say "X are dead"

Reuters will have a headline "26 Victims in Suicide Attack" - and then buried in the article you will learn that 25 children were killed when some thug blew himself up.

The murderer is not a "victim"
I agree that the murdered is not a victim and that the hypothetical headline you describe here is inaccurate. We can agree to disagree about how often Reuters and other media say the inaccurate things you describe here.

Diane_Keaton 12-06-2007 05:07 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Fox is more concerned with striking a pose of sympathy with the victims than it is with giving viewers useful information about the world.
"Striking a pose of sympathy with the victims"? You talk like they are faking sympathy with victims of a bombing for some political purpose. I don't think that's true and I think media actually distances us from the victims and makes some people into bit of an armchair commentator -- one who doesn't give enough regard to the fact of the deaths or the victims. Have you wiped off bloody bits of once alive but now instantly dead people from your clothing? I have. And so whereas you may look at the news and see a "political crisis erupting this afternoon in downtown X" or other kind of intellectualization, I think of it differently. I remember the faces of the kids who were blown up getting a slice of Sbarro pizza. So I don't mind a news story that focuses on the victim. In my view, a little more "sympathy for the victims" would be a good idea and wouldn't be "striking a pose" at all. In fact, I think we are all so used to hearing about this or that victim or bombing, we're desensitized to it.


http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/F.../MFAJ098k0.jpghttp://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/1.../MFAJ098n0.jpg http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/9.../MFAJ098f0.jpg

Tyrone Slothrop 12-06-2007 05:34 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
"Striking a pose of sympathy with the victims"? You talk like they are faking sympathy with victims of a bombing for some political purpose. I don't think that's true and I think media actually distances us from the victims and makes some people into bit of an armchair commentator -- one who doesn't give enough regard to the fact of the deaths or the victims. Have you wiped off bloody bits of once alive but now instantly dead people from your clothing? I have. And so whereas you may look at the news and see a "political crisis erupting this afternoon in downtown X" or other kind of intellectualization, I think of it differently. I remember the faces of the kids who were blown up getting a slice of Sbarro pizza. So I don't mind a news story that focuses on the victim. In my view, a little more "sympathy for the victims" would be a good idea and wouldn't be "striking a pose" at all. In fact, I think we are all so used to hearing about this or that victim or bombing, we're desensitized to it.


http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/F.../MFAJ098k0.jpghttp://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/1.../MFAJ098n0.jpg http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/9.../MFAJ098f0.jpg
I think that Fox coverage of such events involves striking a pose and desensitizing people, and that what you just said does not. I don't mind focusing on the victims at all. I just think it's idiotic to call suicide bombers "homicide bombers" out of an impulse to avoid mentioning that the attacker ended up dead as well.

LessinSF 12-06-2007 06:37 PM

Gotta Love The U.N.
 
Where can I get a job that will pay me not to work for lying?

http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=105&sid=1304817

Diane_Keaton 12-06-2007 06:43 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think that Fox coverage of such events involves striking a pose and desensitizing people,
Okay. Tell us how Fox desensitizes people concerning violence/bombings. Please don't say it's because they use the word "homicide bomber". Because if that's the case, you are pretty easily desensitized.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-06-2007 07:05 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
Okay. Tell us how Fox desensitizes people concerning violence/bombings.
TV news, and Fox in particular, is superficial. Fox -- and I don't think they're unique in this -- sensationalizes violence, particularly violence committed by strangers, without providing context. (Local TV news often does this too, with local crime stories.) Context concerning causes helps to understand why these things occur. Context concerning their impact -- like who the victims are -- helps explain their impact. The superficiality of the coverage has the effect of desensitizing people to what the story means. It just becomes a number of inexplicable, random deaths.

The exception to this general phenomenom is when a story breaks through to saturation coverage. Natalie Holloway (or whatever her name was), 9/11, the OJ case -- these stories are overreported, not underreported, leading to a whole different set of issues.

sebastian_dangerfield 12-06-2007 08:23 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
Okay. Tell us how Fox desensitizes people concerning violence/bombings. Please don't say it's because they use the word "homicide bomber". Because if that's the case, you are pretty easily desensitized.
I don't know desensitizing people is such a bad thing. Giving us all thicker skins isn't a bad idea.

Hank Chinaski 12-06-2007 11:14 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
TV news, and Fox in particular, is superficial. Fox -- and I don't think they're unique in this -- sensationalizes violence, particularly violence committed by strangers, without providing context. (Local TV news often does this too, with local crime stories.) Context concerning causes helps to understand why these things occur. Context concerning their impact -- like who the victims are -- helps explain their impact. The superficiality of the coverage has the effect of desensitizing people to what the story means. It just becomes a number of inexplicable, random deaths.

The exception to this general phenomenom is when a story breaks through to saturation coverage. Natalie Holloway (or whatever her name was), 9/11, the OJ case -- these stories are overreported, not underreported, leading to a whole different set of issues.
I used to understand why the Pix diane posted from beslam, or the WTC/911 pix got deleted, but now I don't see how it wasn't hypocritical:(

Tyrone Slothrop 12-07-2007 12:37 PM

Sen. Mitch McConnell (R. -- Ky.), supporting the troops:
  • Nobody is happy about losing lives but remember these are not draftees, these are full-time professional soldiers.

link

Tyrone Slothrop 12-07-2007 01:04 PM

"Homicide Bombers"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I used to understand why the Pix diane posted from beslam, or the WTC/911 pix got deleted, but now I don't see how it wasn't hypocritical:(
Maybe you can work with a TV in your office with Fox News on all day, but most of us can't, for one reason or another.

sebastian_dangerfield 12-07-2007 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Sen. Mitch McConnell (R. -- Ky.), supporting the troops:
  • Nobody is happy about losing lives but remember these are not draftees, these are full-time professional soldiers.

link
Mitch McConnell & Steve Forbes - Separated at birth? Do a Google image search.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-07-2007 01:59 PM

Romney
 
David Frum:
  • Sorry to dissent from my colleagues on the Corner.... To be blunt, Romney is saying:

    It is legitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the son of God?"

    But it is illegitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer?"

    It is hard for me to see a principled difference between these two questions, and I think on reflection that the audiences to whom Romney is trying to appeal will also fail to see such a difference...

sebastian_dangerfield 12-07-2007 02:04 PM

Romney
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
David Frum:
  • Sorry to dissent from my colleagues on the Corner.... To be blunt, Romney is saying:

    It is legitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the son of God?"

    But it is illegitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer?"

    It is hard for me to see a principled difference between these two questions, and I think on reflection that the audiences to whom Romney is trying to appeal will also fail to see such a difference...

Romney's speech was a new low in our race toward becoming the political laughingstock of the developed world. The only silver lining in the thing was knowing it was all such a huge, cynical lie. And that he won't be getting elected.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-07-2007 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Romney's speech was a new low in our race toward becoming the political laughingstock of the developed world.
More on another part of Romney's speech from Alex Massie, who is a Scot:
  • More Romney, I'm afraid. But this is less about him than it concerns a general American trend. Daniel Larison has already touched on how Romney seems to share Fred Thompson's odd belief in the uniquely generous nature of American military sacrifice. This reminds me that I'd meant to comment upon this passage from Romney's speech:

    "Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government. No people in the history of the world have sacrificed as much for liberty. The lives of hundreds of thousands of America's sons and daughters were laid down during the last century to preserve freedom, for us and for freedom loving people throughout the world. America took nothing from that Century's terrible wars – no land from Germany or Japan or Korea; no treasure; no oath of fealty."

    Oh please. To listen to this you might think the United States' sole concern was that the people of Europe and, for that matter, south-east asia, had a proper supply of apple pie. No war aims here! Not so much as a single strategic objective!

    To say this is poppycock does not detract for a second from the heroism and sacrifice of American soldiers on Omaha Beach or the sands of Iwo Jima (or for that matter of the workers in the factories who made trucks for Uncle Joe).

    America took nothing from the Second World War, unless you consider being the world's most powerful - and richest - country nothing at all. As collateral benefits go you'd have to rank these pretty highly.

    Except of course it wasn't a collateral benefit. I know that Americans are wedded to this view of their involvement in WW2 (precipitated of course by Japan and Germany) as a selfless, reluctant act. But if this story has any truth it's only part of the matter. Right from the beginning there were other fish being fried.

    The Americans were shaping their notion of the post-war environment even before they entered the conflict. The ennobling element of Britain's wartime story is not so much the defiant days when she stood alone (though those, natch, reflect well upon us) but the fact that Britain sacrificed an Empire and, consequently, much of its power to help ensure that the Americans could be persuaded into the war. Victory was impossible without America; but more than blood - or treasure for that matter - was needed to pay the price the Americans demanded. So be it.

    For instance, the American view of post-war trade would be, as Cordell Hull put it, "a knife to open that oyster shell, the Empire". At their first meeting, at Placentia Bay in August 1941, Roosevelt viewed Churchill as "A real old Tory, of the old school" but predicted that there'd be plenty of talk about India "And Burma. And Java. And Indo-China. And Indonesia. And all the African colonies. And Egypt and Palestine. We'll talk about 'em all."

    The destruction of the British Empire was every bit as much an American war aim as was the defeat of Hitlerism, even if, for obvious reasons, it was rarely explained as such in public.

    All of which was, of course, fair enough. The United States can hardly be faulted for acting in its own interest. And its own interest was a post-war world in which it was Top Dog. If that meant doing its best to shut Britain out then so be it. As I say, the only thing wrong with this is pretending that it didn't happen.

    (I should perhaps point out that in the grander scheme of things, the American view of unfettered free trade (though good for American industry) was probably preferable to the British hankering for Imperial Preference. But that's not the point really.)

    Nor does it - to repeat - detract from the valiant service of American troops to point out that the United states has indeed demanded fealty and, for that matter, sovereignty. What else are US bases around the world if not the outposts of Empire?

    The US military guarantee to defend western Europe was both noble and self-serving. There isn't necessarily a contradiction between the two. In return for protection against the Soviets western Europe endorsed an American view of the world and its institutions. Still, in important respects NATO is an "alliance" in name only. Until recently Europe's low defence spending suited America (and perhaps still does): after all, if European countries lack the ability to project force then they are al the more dependent upon the US. That's a high-ranking card to have in your hand.

    Still, it's not unreasonable to remember that the American guarantee of liberty was a guarantee that would only be observed on American terms. To take but one example, the Italian elections of 1948 could not be "free and fair" because they carried the risk that the Communists might do well. Now Italian politics might have been corrupted anyway, but the US-backed 40 year installation of the Christian Democrats certainly helped pollute the Italian body politic. You may argue that this was better than the alternative but that doesn't mean you need pretend that all this was perfect or that it somehow matched American rhetoric. Hypocrisy is, of course, an old imperial vice. (Or, if you prefer, virtue).

    Just because th US involvement in Europe (and elsewhere) has been, overall, beneficial doesn't mean we shouldn't pretend that drawbacks and unfortunate consequences don't exist. On the risky assumption that we can be grown-up about these things there's little need for pretense or humbug.

    Equally, Romney's "no fealty" line is complete hokum. Perhaps he has forgotten that much of the fury directed towards Jacques Chirac in the lead-up to the Iraq War was predicated upon the idea that, after all we did for France it's outrageous that they don't support us now that we ask them to 60 years later. That sounds like a demand for fealty to me.

    So sure, America took nothing from the last century's terrible wars. Nothing, that is, except the American Century itself.

Hank Chinaski 12-07-2007 02:53 PM

Romney
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
David Frum:
  • Sorry to dissent from my colleagues on the Corner.... To be blunt, Romney is saying:

    It is legitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the son of God?"

    But it is illegitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer?"

    It is hard for me to see a principled difference between these two questions, and I think on reflection that the audiences to whom Romney is trying to appeal will also fail to see such a difference...

once the Islamists take over, you and your bloggers are really going to be fucked.

SlaveNoMore 12-07-2007 02:54 PM

Quote:

Tyrone Slothrop
More on another part of Romney's speech from Alex Massie, who is a Scot:
  • More Romney, I'm afraid. But this is less about him than it concerns a general American trend. Daniel Larison has already touched on how Romney seems to share Fred Thompson's odd belief in the uniquely generous nature of American military sacrifice. This reminds me that I'd meant to comment upon this passage from Romney's speech:

    "Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government. No people in the history of the world have sacrificed as much for liberty. The lives of hundreds of thousands of America's sons and daughters were laid down during the last century to preserve freedom, for us and for freedom loving people throughout the world. America took nothing from that Century's terrible wars – no land from Germany or Japan or Korea; no treasure; no oath of fealty."

    Oh please. To listen to this you might think the United States' sole concern was that the people of Europe and, for that matter, south-east asia, had a proper supply of apple pie. No war aims here! Not so much as a single strategic objective!

    To say this is poppycock does not detract for a second from the heroism and sacrifice of American soldiers on Omaha Beach or the sands of Iwo Jima (or for that matter of the workers in the factories who made trucks for Uncle Joe).

    America took nothing from the Second World War, unless you consider being the world's most powerful - and richest - country nothing at all. As collateral benefits go you'd have to rank these pretty highly.

    Except of course it wasn't a collateral benefit. I know that Americans are wedded to this view of their involvement in WW2 (precipitated of course by Japan and Germany) as a selfless, reluctant act. But if this story has any truth it's only part of the matter. Right from the beginning there were other fish being fried.

    The Americans were shaping their notion of the post-war environment even before they entered the conflict. The ennobling element of Britain's wartime story is not so much the defiant days when she stood alone (though those, natch, reflect well upon us) but the fact that Britain sacrificed an Empire and, consequently, much of its power to help ensure that the Americans could be persuaded into the war. Victory was impossible without America; but more than blood - or treasure for that matter - was needed to pay the price the Americans demanded. So be it.

    For instance, the American view of post-war trade would be, as Cordell Hull put it, "a knife to open that oyster shell, the Empire". At their first meeting, at Placentia Bay in August 1941, Roosevelt viewed Churchill as "A real old Tory, of the old school" but predicted that there'd be plenty of talk about India "And Burma. And Java. And Indo-China. And Indonesia. And all the African colonies. And Egypt and Palestine. We'll talk about 'em all."

    The destruction of the British Empire was every bit as much an American war aim as was the defeat of Hitlerism, even if, for obvious reasons, it was rarely explained as such in public.

    All of which was, of course, fair enough. The United States can hardly be faulted for acting in its own interest. And its own interest was a post-war world in which it was Top Dog. If that meant doing its best to shut Britain out then so be it. As I say, the only thing wrong with this is pretending that it didn't happen.

    (I should perhaps point out that in the grander scheme of things, the American view of unfettered free trade (though good for American industry) was probably preferable to the British hankering for Imperial Preference. But that's not the point really.)

    Nor does it - to repeat - detract from the valiant service of American troops to point out that the United states has indeed demanded fealty and, for that matter, sovereignty. What else are US bases around the world if not the outposts of Empire?

    The US military guarantee to defend western Europe was both noble and self-serving. There isn't necessarily a contradiction between the two. In return for protection against the Soviets western Europe endorsed an American view of the world and its institutions. Still, in important respects NATO is an "alliance" in name only. Until recently Europe's low defence spending suited America (and perhaps still does): after all, if European countries lack the ability to project force then they are al the more dependent upon the US. That's a high-ranking card to have in your hand.

    Still, it's not unreasonable to remember that the American guarantee of liberty was a guarantee that would only be observed on American terms. To take but one example, the Italian elections of 1948 could not be "free and fair" because they carried the risk that the Communists might do well. Now Italian politics might have been corrupted anyway, but the US-backed 40 year installation of the Christian Democrats certainly helped pollute the Italian body politic. You may argue that this was better than the alternative but that doesn't mean you need pretend that all this was perfect or that it somehow matched American rhetoric. Hypocrisy is, of course, an old imperial vice. (Or, if you prefer, virtue).

    Just because th US involvement in Europe (and elsewhere) has been, overall, beneficial doesn't mean we shouldn't pretend that drawbacks and unfortunate consequences don't exist. On the risky assumption that we can be grown-up about these things there's little need for pretense or humbug.

    Equally, Romney's "no fealty" line is complete hokum. Perhaps he has forgotten that much of the fury directed towards Jacques Chirac in the lead-up to the Iraq War was predicated upon the idea that, after all we did for France it's outrageous that they don't support us now that we ask them to 60 years later. That sounds like a demand for fealty to me.

    So sure, America took nothing from the last century's terrible wars. Nothing, that is, except the American Century itself.

Good god.

This is such typical Elitist Euro claptrap, it almost borders on parody.

Hank Chinaski 12-07-2007 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Sen. Mitch McConnell (R. -- Ky.), supporting the troops:
  • Nobody is happy about losing lives but remember these are not draftees, these are full-time professional soldiers.

link
did he say anything right before and right after that put it in context at all?

and what he is saying is a valid response to the Ds arguments painting the troops as innocents being thrown to the slaughter. They knew there is a war and they enlisted, and the arguments about Bush callously sending them off ignore that knowledge.

That isn't to say it is not sad when they die. Perhaps it is more sad. But McConnell was answering the Ds little arguments.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 12-07-2007 03:07 PM

Slave and GGG, together in harmony
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good god.

This is such typical Elitist Euro claptrap, it almost borders on parody.
2.

futbol fan 12-07-2007 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good god.

This is such typical Elitist Euro claptrap, it almost borders on parody.
You really think we got "nothing" (to quote Romney) out of winning WWII?

sebastian_dangerfield 12-07-2007 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good god.

This is such typical Elitist Euro claptrap, it almost borders on parody.
I agree the piece is a bit pompous, but the point isn't overreaching. We clearly did take an awful lot from an awful lot of nations after WWII. The USSR and US basically started splitting up the world.

His point is accurate. Romney overreached. But his whole speech was a ludicrous, overreaching and offensive begging exercise for the votes of the most regressive elements of our society.


Tyrone Slothrop 12-07-2007 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I agree the piece is a bit pompous, but the point isn't overreaching. We clearly did take an awful lot from an awful lot of nations after WWII.
To be more concrete, when we gave Great Britain 50 Lend-Lease destroyers in 1940 (their "darkest hour"), we extracted from them the rights to military bases on British-controlled soil all over the place.

sebastian_dangerfield 12-07-2007 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
To be more concrete, when we gave Great Britain 50 Lend-Lease destroyers in 1940 (their "darkest hour"), we extracted from them the rights to military bases on British-controlled soil all over the place.
A concrete and totally appropriate exchange. There was nothing wrong with us taking any treasure.

Any suggestion our self-interest diminishes what we've done for Europe is ludicrous.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 12-07-2007 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
You really think we got "nothing" (to quote Romney) out of winning WWII?
That's not the elitist Euro claptrap. Romney was an idiot, but is there anyone here ready to defend him?

It's the idea that England "surrendered" "its" empire, and that it did so to placate America. He goes even further by suggesting a bunch of the French colonies were part of the bargain.

If America takes credit for getting rid of the British empire, then America gets credit for removing a blight from the world. But I think Gandi and Co.

futbol fan 12-07-2007 04:02 PM

New board motto?
 
http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/image...erboarding.gif

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 12-07-2007 04:03 PM

New board motto?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/image...erboarding.gif
Hank, think your wife can make an avatar out of the middle guy?

sebastian_dangerfield 12-07-2007 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
If America takes credit for getting rid of the British empire, then America gets credit for removing a blight from the world.
Without which blight 1/4 of the world would not have any infrastructure or government. It was a blight, but colonization did have its benefits.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:15 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
Hosted By: URLJet.com