:shock:

eta: more -- T.S.

Torture works?
 

There is legislation pending. The administration apparently feels this is enough of a problem that it wants to legalize torture and exempt interrogators from threat of prosecution.

Hank Expects the Spanish Inquisitioni
 

To some extent, of course, it depends on the context.

I'd say that Nos. 1 and 2 aren't torture, in isolation. (e.g. I don't think my parents ever "tortured" me.)

No. 3, in moderation, is not torture -- a mere beating is not, technically, torture.

Nos. 4 and 5 become torture after indeterminate periods of time.

No. 6 is torture.

S_A_M

Torture works?
 

There are all kinds of reasons to pass legislation, not the least of which may be an attempt to preempt legislation running the other direction. I'm trying to understand whether this is all about 5 people caught in the crossfire + media, or whether we're running out of control, torturing innocents willy-nilly.

Hank Expects the Spanish Inquisitioni
 

I never said it doesn't work, only that it's savage and depraved. Although I will point out that it's amazing how many of the conversos still practiced behind closed doors. I'm pretty sure the false confession scenario so common on Death Row is also a fairly good example of how even modest coercion produces not so much truth, as what the interrogator wants to hear.

moral leadership on torture
 

And you sound like an apologist. (Though my view is admittedly shaped by my knowledge of your pro-torture stance.)

There is a thick, detailed Army Manual telling interrogators how to comply with the Geneva Conventions. How is it unclear?

In the context of a situation in which -- unless my memory is mistaken -- one of the Administration's initial positions was to seek a simple "carve-out"/exemption for CIA/civilian interrogators, their motivation is pretty obvious.

moral leadership on torture
 

You're trying to read between the lines. There isn't anything between the lines. We're just saying that torture is stupid, vicious, and debasing to all Americans.

If that sounds utterly ridiculous, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Torture works?
 

Every book I have read about underground movements during the Nazi occupation implied that if the SS caught you, it was guranteed you gave up names.

There was a Dutch resister, whose name escapes me, who didn't give up any names to the SS and he was considered unbelievably strong. The basic rule was that if you knew someone who was captured, time to disappear.

When my father was stationed in Berlin during the fifties, the KGB would stick western agents feet into the smelting kiln at the local steel works in East Berlin. My father said it worked every time. Any information the agent had was considered in the KGBs hands after that.

I think the refrain about torture not working is just wishful thinking. It would be nice if it didn't work, then there would be no temptation to do it and it wouldn't be an issue. But unfortunately the real world does not work that way.

In the real world, the tough decision = no torture (or rough interrogations)then it is harder to find other secret operativess. If we employ torture then we find out more secret operatives and foil more terrorist plots.

Hank Expects the Spanish Inquisitioni
 

If chain a fellow to the ceiling and have at him with open hands for a while, singly or in shifts, it could rise to the level of torture.

S_A_M

Hank Expects the Spanish Inquisitioni
 

To me 2-6 are torture. Any time you physically abuse the prisoner= torture.

Hank Expects the Spanish Inquisitioni
 

You're going with "but they do it, too," as your best argument? I don't buy it from my 10 year old, either.

Torture works?
 

I do this everday on the board. Much more effectively now that I have found smilies. Lucky for me, the moderators seem to tolerate torture. :bounce:

Hank Expects the Spanish Inquisitioni
 

I guess there are a lot of people emploing the same debate technique as my son today.

You should all be very proud.

moral leadership on torture
 

I agree with this except for the stupid part. But is it worth being vicious and debasing to all Americans if it will save innocent lives?

The issue is much simpler than that.
 

It's wrong and it disgraces all of us.