Reagan also said that the Soviet military was stronger than ours. Was that a lie? How about all the other conservatives who spent so much energy worrying about the Soviet military threat -- all lies?

Central America
 

Yes but then he went and tried to work out a deal with Ortega undermining Reagans foreign policy.

You are kidding right? Look at North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam - and it took 70 year to get rid of the Soviet Union. Communist dictatorships are tough to get rid of.

Would South Korea be better off if it was part of North Korea?, would Malaysia and Indonesia be better off if they were Communist like Vietnam. Sometimes the choice was between communists or authoritarians. What these liberals were promoting is that we withdraw support from the anti-communist regime and let the communists take over This was a tough call.

What makes you think Singapore is not a democracy. The communist party operates freely there. They have democratic elections. All adults can vote. Singapore, by the way, is the only country to go from a third world country to a first world country and thirty years. Also, and not coincidently, it has been consistently rated the freest economy in the world every year since 1975. First of all China is run by communists. Since 1985 they have slowly been moving towards capitalism. The communist party thinks they will be able to hold on but they are sowing the seeds of their own destruction. Pretty soon there is going to be strong middle class that will demand democracy. South Koreas turn towards democracy was inevitavble. Like I said before countries when they reach $6,000 to $8,000 per capita income they always go Democratic. Spain, Portugal, Greece, Chile, Argentina, South Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan etc. Can you name a country that has over $8,000 per year in per capita income that is not a democracy?

Loan Star State
 

You mean the same state where the Attorney General wants the names of all woman who have had late term abortions? What happened with that anyway?

Central America
 

Substantive disagreement on foreign policy is not treason, or cluelessness, or what have you.

In some cases. In other countries, Communist governments did not last.

No. And if that's what you understand me to be saying, you're not reading me right.

Sometimes nuns had to be murdered, eh?

That wasn't always the choice. We tended to support strong men -- thugs -- because they served our interests, and because we feared that democracies would not survive.

You must be kidding. It's things like the absence of a free press and an independent judiciary. I'm with William Safire on this one.

I hate to say it, but you sound positively Marxist.

Hardly. Read the book by George H.W. Bush's ambassador to South Korea and China, China Hand. Things easily could have worked out differently.

Singapore and Malaysia are not functioning democracies, though they may hold elections. I'm glad that the military juntas in Chile and Argentina lost power, but it was hardly inevitable.

There obviously is a connection between economic prosperity and political development. I'm not going to argue with you there. But, if so, it kinda makes you wonder why conservatives are so wedded to military force as a way of solving problems that we might solve through other means. Lift the economic sanctions on Cuba and North Korea. And so on.

Presumably your answer to this is that right-wing juntas are peculiarly vulnerable to the growth of a middle class. But why not Communists, too? Your China scenario is that the Communists are inevitably going to be forced out of power by the middle class, right?

Wolfie
 

I think you have a warped view of "doing okay". In my mind, you cannot massacre 18% of your population, and then claim economic prosperity. I think you have to factor the massacre in. I guess I still just take too much personal offence at anyone's assertion that we should just move on from the 18% in VN or the 27% in C. So, chalk this one up to being my problem.

Plus, if you look at the historical numbers, there is a direct correlation between moving to socialism/communism, and moving downwards economically, if that was your point.

I need to remember my audience. This group requires a very linear display.

Central America
 

And then he finagled out early, came home, denigrated the effort, and played a large part in causing our bugout. Following which, the Khmer Krahom and the KVN swept through and clashed with each other and ARVN, as they had planned once they won the war of the newspapers here, and, the first two having wiped out the latter, remade their society, just as had been the communist plan.

Remember how they did that? It involved the massacre of millions. Millions. Which likely bothers you less than a scratched Italian journo. I'd say you don't understand the communist threat.

Central America
 

[I posted something a little more intemperate which I might regret later, so instead I will just say this: If you really think that, you can kiss my ass. And if you don't, you can kiss my ass for suggesting it.]

Central America
 

Looks like Bilmore has gotten into to Ty's wine cellar again . . .

Central America
 

Unfortunately, no. There are just some subjects upon which I can no longer comfortably tolerate glib superficiality.

Yeah. Kerry understands the communist threat. My ass.

Central America
 

Interesting response, but the threat of your bared ass (while off putting) wouldn't do anything to stop the barbarian communist hordes that were at our gates, i.e. our southern border, thus confirming that you didn't and still don't understand the threat of the red tide (and its modern day successor, Islamofacism).

Thankfully, Reagan did, and W does.

Central America
 

I apologize. That was intemperate. I do not believe that those deaths do not bother you. There are some subjects that still hit too close.

Loan Star State
 

That's Kansas. Our Attorney General has some idiotic notions about medical record privacy, but not that idiotic. Fortunately, there's not a HIPAA exception for what the good Attorney General from Kansas wants, though I suppose he could try to get a court order.

Since he's ostensibly looking to root out statutory rapists through late term abortion records (his reasoning, not mine), one would think he'd just look at the publicly available birth records and find out which mothers were under the age of consent when they gave birth. His is the more circuitous path.

ETA: Coincidently, I read today in Grits for Breakfast about a new movement in Texas called "Save our TexSons."

Apparently 14 year olds are so hussied up that it's hard to tell who's legal any more. See Stupid Spoiled Whore Video Playset for more information.

I still love Mark Steyn
 

"The other day in the Guardian Martin Kettle wrote: ‘The war was a reckless, provocative, dangerous, lawless piece of unilateral arrogance. But it has nevertheless brought forth a desirable outcome which would not have been achieved at all, or so quickly, by the means that the critics advocated, right though they were in most respects.’

Very big of you, pal. And I guess that’s as close to a mea culpa as we’re going to get: even though Bush got everything wrong, it turned out right. Funny how that happens, isn’t it? In a few years’ time, they’ll have it down pat — just like they have with Eastern Europe. Oh, the Soviet bloc [the Middle East thugocracies] was bound to collapse anyway. Nothing to do with that simpleton Ronnie Raygun [Chimpy Bushitler]. In fact, all Raygun [Chimpy] did was delay the inevitable with his ridiculous arms build-up [illegal unprovoked Halliburton oil-grab], as many of us argued at the time: see my 1984 column ‘Yuri Andropov, The Young, Smart, Sexy New Face Of Soviet Communism’ [see the April 2004 Spectator column ‘Things Were Better Under Saddam: The coalition has destroyed Baathism, says Rod Liddle, and with it all hopes of the emergence of secular democracy’ — and yes, that really ran in these pages, on 17 April, not 1 April.]

By the way, when’s the next Not In Our Name rally? How about this Saturday? Millions of Nionists can flood into Trafalgar Square to proclaim to folks in Iraq and Lebanon and Egypt and Jordan and Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority that all the changes under way in the region are most certainly Not In Their Name. "

More, but can't link - pay site in the Spectator

Central America
 

Given that the People's Action Party controls nearly every seat in Parliament, the term "democracy" may not be wholly applicable.

Wolfie
 

Much like Chile under Pinochet, Iran under the Shah, Iraq under Hussein, Somalia under whoever is in charge this week....

Totalitarians occupy far too broad a band on either side of the spectrum and the US has a long record of supporting the ones who help our intererests and subverting the ones who don't. I am not defending or condemning the US here. I am simply pointing out that neither the right nor the left has a monopoly on terror, torture, and genocide as a means of maintaining power.

We are neither Satan nor the World's Humanitartian Supercop. I don't have an answer to the cynicism so transparent in our exercise of power in favor of our national interest and our willingness to let millions die when we have othing to gain. But the claims of moral superiority on both sides are getting a bit tiresome.

Wolfie
 

Well, I stand corrected. I mean, who needs evidence when you've got faith?

A long-winded way of saying Cite, please.

Central America
 

Where do you get this stuff? The Heritage Foundation has rated Hong Kong the freest economy every year since 1995. Look it up.

Wolfie
 

However, in either the totalitarian regimes or the communist regimes, the wealth was all enjoyed by the ruling elite, and the rest of the nation lived in abject poverty.

Central America
 

Of course, it's not really a country. If you let Singapore carve off pieces, or even allowed the US, for purposes of the study, they could improve their results as well.

Wolfie
 

Might have had something to do with the large number of American troops there. Foreign occupation is usually not a sustainable economic model. If it were, I'm sure the WH would argue it as the reason for having invaded Iraq.
I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers, but if you look here, you'll find a ton of countries with lower per capita incomes, not all of them socialist. And are you using socialist and communist interchangeably? I need to know because otherwise you're hard to follow.

True.
I'd really love to know your source for this, because everything I can find says that Cuba per capita income is not available. So you could be right - but I'd like to know your source.

Wolfie
 

I think Spanker's counting on being part of the wealthy ruling elite -- in which case, this is the ideal system.

Central America
 

Haven't the natives of New York City already done this?

Central America
 

Just Manhattan. It's not really a city - it's a borough.

Central America
 

Although I don't think it improved their competitiveness standing.

Wolfie
 

Kerry told me that we're that way, too.

Apparently the Hezbollah rally in Beirut drew 500,000 people -- one-eighth of the country's population. Wow.

The police dept. estimate was 8,000.

Central America
 

What you failed to mention was that Singapore is number two. The Economist and the Far Eastern Economic Review keep putting Singapore at the top, but Singapre and Hong Kong are almost the top two. But that still reinforced my argument. Before the communist takeover (and the introduction of Socialism) Hong Kong, Taiwan and the rest of china had the same per capita income. Before China introduced its economic reforms the per capita income in all of China was $500 a year. At that same time, the freest economy - Hong Kong has a percapita income of $7,000 per year, and Taiwan, a little less free but a great deal more free than China, has a per capital income of $5,000 per year. Now that the rest of China has open up its economy, China is rapidbly catching up to these countries.

Your papers, please.
 

I look forward to the day when the five boroughs* secede to set up a Singapore-style city-state, complete with caning. Especially caning. We've been subsidizing the rest of this fat-ass country for far too long.**

* Staten Island will have to do some shaping up first.

**This is where you pour a little of your 40 onto the ground for Pat Moynihan.

Central America
 

I thought your thesis was that right-wing dictatorships inevitably turn into democracies as they grow richer, while Communists prevent economic growth and will not relinquish power. But in Singapore, you have a dictator continuing to preside over a wealthy, growing economy. And in China, you have Communists presiding over rapid economic growth.

Central America
 

Yes but they get those seats in a free election. I think it was about seven years ago when the PAP's candidate for Prime Minister lost three seats, he had to resign in embarrassment. I am not claiming that Singapore is the best with civil liberties, I wouldn't want to live there, but the government has the overwhelming support of the people. There are many negative things you can say about Singapore, but it is prosperous, has a free economy and has free elections.

The Beloved Leader Agrees!
 

Hear hear!

http://clowningglory.typepad.com/blo...OREA-RALLY.jpg

Central America
 

Why do you think elections in Singapore are more "free" than those in China?

eta:

Here's a brief description of some of the problems there:

• Singapore's government has decided that it likes the idea of a speakers' corner. But it will have free speech Singapore style: "We will let people say whatever they like to say," explained Home Affairs Minister, Mr Wong Kan Seng, "except for things that will offend the law, or offend religious or racial sensibilities, or anything that is libelous. Then, of course, they will be subject to lawsuits by the people whom they libel."
  
  The most vigilant users of the libel law in Singapore are its political leaders. Singapore's ruling party has been spectacularly successful in persecuting political opponents simply by the brisk use of libel suits, unerringly decided in favour of the government on punitive terms by a deeply sympathetic judiciary. And before you take your soapbox to Singapore you should know of a few other stipulations. You'll need a licence. The police may record your views. And you are liable to detention without trial if you are deemed a menace to public security.
  
  In this way, Singapore will acquire yet another of the emblems of a libel democracy without its substance. Indeed, it has all the mechanisms of a democracy without the libel values which give them meaning.
  
  So the rich city-state allows the people to vote - democracy - but it is illiberal - it persecutes the opposition, muzzles the media and threatens to abandon public spending in any district that dares vote for alternative parties. ... Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew pioneered the illiberal democracy....

Australian Financial Review

Central America
 

He didn't fail to mention it, he just pointed out that HK is #1. Nice spin on someone correcting your prounouncements from on high, though.

If Singaporeans (?) have few civil liberties, what makes you so sure their elections are truly free? Can opposition groups run viable campaigns?

Central America
 

Kerry told me were that way too. Except for the wealthy, growing part.

By the way, if this is not made the next board motto I will stop considering one day contributing toward the maintenance and upkeep of this site.

Was the stated purpose to protest foreign (read US) involvement, or to say Syria please stay? Hint- things you read in english aren't evidence.

As the only moderator currently posting here under his primary sock, let me just say that I am without the power to change the board motto that appears on the Forum page. That's an admin thing. (I'm sure RT will change the board memo at the polite request of anyone who agrees with her about health care policy.)

Done. :D