Central America
 

How do you conclude that causation is not the opposite?

Wolfie
 

That's not consistent with any of the reports I've read, but I'm sure you know better.

Caption please
 

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/sgrena-suv-3.jpg

Because Photo of the car riddled with 400 bullets and hit by American tank fire in an attempt to murder Italian journalist of the highest integrity isn't cutting it.

Fine. Redact the word "back" from my previous statement.

Central America
 

I used to think until I went there and met the people. They think the United State is a cess pool and the PAP has brought them unparralleled prosperity and kept them from becoming a cess pool like the United States. They just don't think individual rights are that important. Every time I went there I could not help myself. I kept asking people, how can you accept a government like this? It was like being in the Stepford Wives.

Central America
 

Lee Kuan Yew disagrees. "Dictator Lee is the man who said of elections, 'The government will not be blackmailed by the people.'"

That's from the Safire thing I linked earlier.

Wolfie
 

Shoot. Let me think..... wait- maybe- Slave- did Kerry ever claim that he fought in Laos?

So Palestinians from other countries (or whose parents came from other countries) should be forcibly sent to Jordan. (eta: That would a short trip for them, but a big step for democracy in the Middle East, eh?) Do you also think that Jews from other countries should be forcibly sent to Israel?

Wolfie
 

What reports where? I first went to Thailand in 1989 and have been there every couple of years since. The change has been unbelievable. Bangkok now has the worst traffic jams in the World. Something like seventy percent of thai families have TV sets. The middle class has exploded. The prostitutes all over Asia come from the three countries I mentioned. There are some from Burma, but not as many, because it is harder for the people to get out. The refugee problems from Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam into Thailand are huge. The US government has been putting pressure on the Thai government to stop the sex trade (and send the girls back to their home countrys), but the Thai government has been arguing that these girls are better of in brothels than they would be in their home countries.

Central America
 

While surely teh degree of differences in opinion narrow as a society becomes richer, I cannot believe, and based on my experience, do not believe, that all Singaporeans think alike. Surely some of them would vote to allow chewing gum without a prescription.

You mean to tell me they weren't forced to flee Egypt? Syria?

Central America
 

Because India has had a full blown democracy since the end of WWII but had a socialist economy ever since then. It just started opening up in 1992 but still has a long way to go. For the authoritarian governments that instituted free market reforms, they have now all gone democratic and are prospersous. Democracys, that don't have free markets, and therefore, prosperity, also tend to fall back into dictatorships. Look at Venezuela.

You mean to tell me Palestinians weren't forced to flee Israel?

Central America
 

I am sure there are, but I never met any. Every once in a while a politician will start bitching about the governments restrictive policies but they never gain widespread support.

BTW: I cite a whole mess of authoritarian government that instituted free market reforms and then turned into stable democracies and the only one you guys focus on is Singapore. What about Spain, Portugal, Chile, South Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, Taiwan etc.

You mean to tell me that Israel doesn't allow Palestinians to live and work within its borders? You mean to tell me that the surrounding countries afford similar rights to Jews/Israelis ?

We can do this all fucking day, but it will get boring

I'm not the one saying the people living in Lebanon who are of Palestinian descent should be denied equal voting rights there and moved to Jordan. I drew the parallel because anyone who suggested the same thing about Jews in other countries would be labeled an anti-Semite pretty quickly. Regardless of how Israel treats Palestinian Israelis, it can't justify what you are suggesting for the refugees in Lebanon.

Sorry to support the dinasour, but during the 1948 war, I think it was an Irgun gang, exterminated an entire Palestinian village. The word got out and 90% of the palestinians in what is Israel proper fled and have never been allowed to return. The small numbers that stayed do enjoy rights as Israeli citizens. However, their relatives cannot move to Isreal (even the ones that fled) where any jewish isreali's family can move into Israel.

Slave supports the dinosaur, too, sometimes with Mexican food.

He has never given me any mexican food

1) I pointed out that a large number of the anti-US marchers yesterday in Beirut were Palestinian refugees. I neither argued for or against their right to the Lebanese franchise.

2) I have stated on numerous occasions that many of these "Palestinian" arabs should perhaps relocate to Jordan, rather than wallow away in refugee camps, as this was - in overly simplistic terms - the country that was established for them.

3) I don't know exactly what you think I am otherwise "suggesting"

BTW: US policy did screw up in one country in Asia. Most of the Authoritarian regimes we supported did bring growth and prosperity to their countrys - South Korea, Thailand, Taiwan, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, South Vietnam etc. Most of the regimes we worked against turned out to be the worst - North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, China, Laos, Burma. We even tried to get India to support and embrace the free market and they refused and ended up being totally screwed. However, we did support one anti-communist dictator who totally screwed his own country - Marcos in the Phillipines. Before Marcos, the Phillipines were pretty prosperous, and his regime turned it into a basket case. He created a kleptocracy (not a free market system) but we continued to back him because he was anti-communist. Supporting Marcos after he had Aquino assisinated was a huge mistake.

Apparently, I just give you my poker chips

Central America
 

What if the statement is "democracy is a necessary (but not sufficient) basis for a free, and robust economy"?

I heard you saying that Palestinian refugees in Lebanon should be sent to Jordan. I don't know why they'd want to go to Jordan, if that's not where they're from. They've been living in Lebanon for a long time, and it's too bad that the Christian government has kept them in camps instead of permitting them to assimilate, like Christian immigrants have.

You didn't say anything about the Lebanese franchise. I did. I keep pointing out that all you conservative small-d democrats don't seem to have a problem with the fact that Lebanon's political structure gives the Christians and Druze factions disproportionately more clout, and the Shiites disproportionately less clout. The "pro-democracy" protestors are the beneficiaries of this imbalance. So you can understand why Hezbollah might like having Syria present as a counterweight.

Central America
 

How about, "the sort of conditions in which democracies are likely to thrive are also conducive to economic progress"?

Central America
 

That does not work because the Singaporean miracle occurred mainly while it was a dictatorship (under Lee Kuan Yew). Many countries achieved unprecedented growth under dictators. However, the dictators implemented free market reforms to get such growth and such growth turned out to be their own demise (the demise of the regime).

Central America
 

Yet your example disproves your hypothesis, because I see no real difference between the democracy of Singapore 30 years ago and today. Like North Korea, the the son of the leader then is now the leader.

There is one system that works even better than the free market system when it comes to economic growth. That is what I call the fear of death system. The highest growth rates ever experienced were in Nazi Germany and in Stalinist Russia. These were both socialist systems but in these systems the producers were under the threat of death. Under Stalin, if you were ordered to build, fifty hi quality T-54 tanks, you either built them (and built them well) or died. Same thing in Nazi Germany. Companys were given production quotas and if they did not reach them the managers were thrown in concentration camps. The capitalist system is incentivized through greed which works pretty well, but greed doesn't seem to hold a candle against the fear of death.

Central America
 

His father was a dictator he is not. He was democratically elected. During his father's period the press was completely censored, all opposition partys were outlawed, and people who voiced dissent were jailed. The system is much more democratic now.

North Korea, as time has gone on, has become more and more repressive.

Central America
 

Sort of the opposite of what happened here.

Central America
 

Watch it, buddy.

Central America
 

I think you overestimate the degree of actual change, and underestimate the continued involvement of Lee Kuan Yew.

We've already had a discussion of what it means to be "democratically" elected, and clearly disagree as to what elements are required (such as free ballot access, freedom from repercussions, and freedom of the press), to ensure a genuinely free election.

Central America
 

That works. But I like better:

In order for a democracy to be stable it needs to increase the standard of living of its citizens, and in order to do that it needs to have an open and free economy.

Democracys that try and control the economy and restrict its freedom, stagnate and become unstable.

Authoritarian dictatorships that institute free market reforms, increase the wealth of the citizenery and the wealthier the citizenry becomes the harder they are to control (the more they will want a say in how the government is run).

Authoritarian dictatorships that institute socialism, thereby keeping the citizenry poor, have a much easier time keeping their regime in charge. It usually takes external pressure for them to be overthrown.

Central America
 

Um, I meant the US, although we should have a "freedom of speech" discussion. Do you IM?

Central America
 

I think what you are missing, is that in many one party authoritarian states, where the party in control delivers prosperity, the people will keep that party in power even when the country becomes democratic. That happened in South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore (among others). When an opposition party wins in such circumstances, it is usually because they have agreed to not mess with the policies that created the prosperity (Chile for example).

Central America
 

That may be true, but you continue to assume that elections in Singapore are truly free, without marshalling any evidence that they have changed from the nearly rigged manner that they have been held since the country was founded.

Wolfie
 

I'm sorry, how did you get to the point of thinking that someone here was pro-communism/anti-free market? I think to the extent that some here would have preferred that we had not illegally funneled money to certain Latin American groups, it was because those groups were, uh, distasteful on many many levels.

I think the "commie" groups/regimes in Latin America probably identified themselves as commies more to get financial/arms support from the USSR and Cuba than out of ideological conviction. Though, some redistribution of land etc. seems in order, kinda like they are now doing in SA and some other African countries. A lot of the groups picked superpower sides.

How does your using per capita income show that there wasn't a deep, wide rich/poor divide? It's average income, for chrissakes. If Bill Gates walked into an otherwise empty-of-customers McDonalds, the per capita income of that McDonalds would be in the millions . . . .

Wolfie
 

Even if the McDonalds were chock-a-block with fringey and buddies that would be true.

Mmmm, Big Mac.

Central America
 

OK, but what does that do to the theory that we forced the change to democracy in the USSR by pushing the USSR into poverty by forcing them to attempt to keep up with us in the arms/space races? There, it's the miserable living conditions that led the people to rise up against their dirty red commie leaders.

You have some correlation/causation issues, and some selective example issues. Which basically make you a blowhard.

Are we sure Spankers isn't a troll? Ty? Did you meet this guy?

Aha.