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Tyrone Slothrop 03-15-2006 06:08 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
2. And I think Fringe already made the point that "conspiracy" is not itself a crime (nor is "attempt"). It's a conspiracy to commit a crime, in this case performing an abortion. Inchoate offenses are not themselves offenses, only in conjunction with something otherwise unlawful.
If I pay you to rob a bank for me, I have committed a crime, even if there are good and sound reasons why I cannot be charged with robbing a bank.

ltl/fb 03-15-2006 06:12 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I see that. But read it again:

"Nothing in this Act may be construed to subject the pregnant mother upon whom any abortion is performed or attempted to any criminal conviction and penalty."

Nothing in this Act may be construed to subject the pregnant mother ... to any criminal conviction and penalty. What if some other law, on its face, may be construed to subject the pregnant mother to criminal conviction and penalty?
OH MY GOD YOU ARE NOT THIS STUPID!!!! Read Burger's inchoate crimes thing regarding conspiracy and aiding and abetting. As I said earlier, to get to conspiracy or aiding and abetting doesn't there have to be some other crime involved (I suppose possibly not, under SD law, but do you know the ins-and-outs of SD law? I think not.) -- and if so, this basically is directing the prosecutor or judge or whatever to say, there is no such thing as a pregnant mother aiding and abetting or conspiring in connection with the criminal activity under THIS statute. They have to go back to this statute to describe what the conspiracy is about, or what is being aided and abetted, and when they go back to the abortion statute, it shakes its (note punctuation, Burger) statutory finger and says "not for preggos (or previously preggos), you naughty prosecutor/judge/jury!!"

Jesus God Christ Almighty, get some fucking sleep or something.

Replaced_Texan 03-15-2006 06:16 PM

Looming crisis
 
I posted this article in the New York Review of Books, by Paul Krugman and Robin Wells yesterday, but I think it's important to read today in the context of this study that will be published in the New England Journal of Medicine.
Quote:

BOSTON - Startling research from the biggest study ever of U.S. health care quality suggests that Americans — rich, poor, black, white — get roughly equal treatment, but it's woefully mediocre for all.

"This study shows that health care has equal-opportunity defects," said Dr. Donald Berwick, who runs the nonprofit Institute for Healthcare Improvement in Cambridge, Mass.

The survey of nearly 7,000 patients, reported Thursday in the New England Journal of Medicine, considered only urban-area dwellers who sought treatment, but it still challenged some stereotypes: These blacks and Hispanics actually got slightly better medical treatment than whites.

***

The researchers, who included U.S. Veterans Affairs personnel, first published their findings for the general population in June 2003. They reported the breakdown by racial, income, and other social groups on Thursday.

They examined medical records and phone interviews from 6,712 randomly picked patients who visited a medical office within a two-year period in 12 metropolitan areas from Boston to Miami to Seattle. The group was not nationally representative but does convey a broad picture of the country's health care practices.

The survey examined whether people got the highest standard of treatment for 439 measures ranging across common chronic and acute conditions and disease prevention. It looked at whether they got the right tests, drugs and treatments.

Overall, patients received only 55 percent of recommended steps for top-quality care — and no group did much better or worse than that.

Blacks and Hispanics as a group each got 58 percent of the best care, compared to 54 percent for whites. Those with annual household income over $50,000 got 57 percent, 4 points more than people from households of less than $15,000. Patients without insurance got 54 percent of recommended steps, just one point less than those with managed care.

As to gender, women came out slightly ahead with 57 percent, compared to 52 percent for men. Young adults did slightly better than the elderly.

There were narrow snapshots of inequality: An insured white woman, for example, got 57 percent of the best standard of care, while an uninsured black man got just 51 percent.
The New York Review of Books article is long, but I think that it's essential reading to help understand what the fuck is wrong with our healthcare system.
Quote:

The good news is that we know more about the economics of health care than we did when Clinton tried and failed to remake the system. There's now a large body of evidence on what works and what doesn't work in health care, and it's not hard to see how to make dramatic improvements in US practice. As we'll see, the evidence clearly shows that the key problem with the US health care system is its fragmentation. A history of failed attempts to introduce universal health insurance has left us with a system in which the government pays directly or indirectly for more than half of the nation's health care, but the actual delivery both of insurance and of care is undertaken by a crazy quilt of private insurers, for-profit hospitals, and other players who add cost without adding value. A Canadian-style single-payer system, in which the government directly provides insurance, would almost surely be both cheaper and more effective than what we now have. And we could do even better if we learned from "integrated" systems, like the Veterans Administration, that directly provide some health care as well as medical insurance.

The bad news is that Washington currently seems incapable of accepting what the evidence on health care says. In particular, the Bush administration is under the influence of both industry lobbyists, especially those representing the drug companies, and a free-market ideology that is wholly inappropriate to health care issues. As a result, it seems determined to pursue policies that will increase the fragmentation of our system and swell the ranks of the uninsured.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 03-15-2006 06:22 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
What if some other law, on its face, may be construed to subject the pregnant mother to criminal conviction and penalty?
THen go challenge that law. For example, if SD tries to apply its murder law to abortion, then challenge it as applied.

What about this law is creating the problem you point to? I see nothing.

BTW, fringe, fuck y'ou.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 03-15-2006 06:24 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If I pay you to rob a bank for me, I have committed a crime, even if there are good and sound reasons why I cannot be charged with robbing a bank.
What is the crime you have committed?

It's probably conspiracy to rob a bank. Or solicitation of same.

Paying me money is not a crime. Paying me money to commit a crime is either a conspiracy or a solicitation of a criminal act.

JFC, Ty.

ltl/fb 03-15-2006 06:33 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
THen go challenge that law. For example, if SD tries to apply its murder law to abortion, then challenge it as applied.

What about this law is creating the problem you point to? I see nothing.

BTW, fringe, fuck y'ou.
"f'uck you" works better for me -- looks kinda Klingon-y.

Hank Chinaski 03-15-2006 06:38 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
OH MY GOD YOU ARE NOT THIS STUPID!!!! Read Burger's inchoate crimes thing regarding conspiracy and aiding and abetting. As I said earlier, to get to conspiracy or aiding and abetting doesn't there have to be some other crime involved (I suppose possibly not, under SD law, but do you know the ins-and-outs of SD law? I think not.) -- and if so, this basically is directing the prosecutor or judge or whatever to say, there is no such thing as a pregnant mother aiding and abetting or conspiring in connection with the criminal activity under THIS statute. They have to go back to this statute to describe what the conspiracy is about, or what is being aided and abetted, and when they go back to the abortion statute, it shakes its (note punctuation, Burger) statutory finger and says "not for preggos (or previously preggos), you naughty prosecutor/judge/jury!!"

Jesus God Christ Almighty, get some fucking sleep or something.
Ummmm, simpler answer. The fact of abortion statutes imply the state can control the pregnant woman choice of how to live. That means a pregnant woman is chattel. Chattel cannot commit a crime. QED.

ltl/fb 03-15-2006 06:42 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Ummmm, simpler answer. The fact of abortion statutes imply the state can control the pregnant woman choice of how to live. That means a pregnant woman is chattel. Chattel cannot commit a crime. QED.
Shut up, consort.

taxwonk 03-15-2006 08:52 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Government is weighing its options.

Are there only three people at TSA who could so testify, or are they barred from adding witnesses at this point? In other words, surely there are untainted witnesses.
If you were the judge, would you allow the Govt. to introduce brand-new witnesses, not previously disclosed, in the penalty phase of a capital trial?

Tyrone Slothrop 03-15-2006 09:33 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
What is the crime you have committed?

It's probably conspiracy to rob a bank. Or solicitation of same.

Paying me money is not a crime. Paying me money to commit a crime is either a conspiracy or a solicitation of a criminal act.

JFC, Ty.
No shit. I don't read the statute as creating a safe harbor. I suspect that's what the legislature intended, but if so they could have worded it better. It doesn't say she didn't commit a crime, it says she can't be charged under *this* statute, which invites a prosecutor to try another. If you think I'm whacked, think about what's happened with RICO, which is being applied in all sorts of ways not originally intended.

I think a judge could go either way on the question, especially under facts where the mother does more than just pay a doctor for her own abortion.

Whatever. Sorry to piss you both off.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 03-15-2006 10:29 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It doesn't say she didn't commit a crime, it says she can't be charged under *this* statute, which invites a prosecutor to try another.
No, it doesn't say she can't be charged under that statute, it says "Nothing in this Act may be construed to subject . . . " And that means it can't be used as a predicate for an inchoate crime. Nor could it be used against a woman under RICO if she did it four times for gain. What escapes me is how one could read that phrase to mean that a woman not a doctor engaging in conduct prohibited by the statute could be "subject" to criminal liability for something else, using this statute as a basis for that something else crime. If that other crime is free-standing, sure, but that's not what you're positing.

Did you go to the same law school as Str8?

Spanky 03-16-2006 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Spanky, why do you think other countries do just as good a job at protecting the rights we protect through the Fourth Amendment?
From a cost benefit perspective this is an absurd question.. The exclusionary rule is a drastic measure that can only be justified to stop something that is extraordinarily heinous. The consequence of letting cleary guilty defendents go free requires that such an act also provide a serious benefit to society. Otherwise such an act is not worth the cost. The exclusionary rule is meant to prevent aggregious violations of the fourth amendment, not to slighty increase the effectiveness of the fourth amenmdent.

In countrys that don't have the exclusionary rule they do seem to be able to protect peoples rights and yet they don't let Child molesters or murderers go free when they have evidence that clearly shows that the defendent is guilty. In all these countrys there doesn't seem to be a huge outcry or a serious problem concerning Police searches.

The issue is not whether, on balance, if all these countrys protect against searches and seizures as well as we do, the question is whether without the exclusionary rule there is massive police misconduct.

There is no such outcry, which demonstrates that the heinouse and drastic consequences of the application of the exclusionary rule are clearly not necessary.

sgtclub 03-16-2006 10:54 AM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
No shit. I don't read the statute as creating a safe harbor. I suspect that's what the legislature intended, but if so they could have worded it better. It doesn't say she didn't commit a crime, it says she can't be charged under *this* statute, which invites a prosecutor to try another. If you think I'm whacked, think about what's happened with RICO, which is being applied in all sorts of ways not originally intended.

I think a judge could go either way on the question, especially under facts where the mother does more than just pay a doctor for her own abortion.

Whatever. Sorry to piss you both off.
Ty, I hear you on this. I don't think it's the best interpretation, but I don't think you do either. It's an interpretation that a prosecuter in the real world who wants to prosecute the mother would use.

sgtclub 03-16-2006 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
From a cost benefit perspective this is an absurd question.. The exclusionary rule is a drastic measure that can only be justified to stop something that is extraordinarily heinous. The consequence of letting cleary guilty defendents go free requires that such an act also provide a serious benefit to society. Otherwise such an act is not worth the cost. The exclusionary rule is meant to prevent aggregious violations of the fourth amendment, not to slighty increase the effectiveness of the fourth amenmdent.

In countrys that don't have the exclusionary rule they do seem to be able to protect peoples rights and yet they don't let Child molesters or murderers go free when they have evidence that clearly shows that the defendent is guilty. In all these countrys there doesn't seem to be a huge outcry or a serious problem concerning Police searches.

The issue is not whether, on balance, if all these countrys protect against searches and seizures as well as we do, the question is whether without the exclusionary rule there is massive police misconduct.

There is no such outcry, which demonstrates that the heinouse and drastic consequences of the application of the exclusionary rule are clearly not necessary.
Where are the facts! Stats! Anything? I've watched you all go round and round on this the last few days and no one is pulling any facts from anywhere.

Sidd Finch 03-16-2006 11:00 AM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Ty, I hear you on this. I don't think it's the best interpretation, but I don't think you do either. It's an interpretation that a prosecuter in the real world who wants to prosecute the mother would use.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding.

We have a winner. Ty's interpretation is a bit strained but not entirely far-fetched. It's not consistent with legislative intent, I would guess, but a whole lotta judges think legislative intent is irrelevant.

I would add to Club's statement: And that a pro-life judge might buy.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 03-16-2006 11:13 AM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Ty, I hear you on this. I don't think it's the best interpretation, but I don't think you do either. It's an interpretation that a prosecuter in the real world who wants to prosecute the mother would use.
Is that a prosecutor different from the state AG who presumably has already taken a contrary position?

Sidd Finch 03-16-2006 11:44 AM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Is that a prosecutor different from the state AG who presumably has already taken a contrary position?

Probably. And also definitely.

First (probably), I don't know anything about South Dakota, but in the states I am familiar with the State Attorney General doesn't get to dictate how local District Attorneys apply their prosecutorial discretion. This is why, for example, some counties in California charge every possible "strike" under the Three Strikes law, why some counties never seek the death penalty, etc. If the AG could dictate to local DAs, then enforcement and application of criminal statutes would be a lot more uniform within each state than it really is, as far as I know.

Second (definitely), I don't know anything about South Dakota, but unless their AG's office has found a way around things like elections, retirement, and death, it seems likely that a different AG may come in at some point, with different views of the law.



edited to clear up typo so the grammar timmies won't wet themselves.

Tyrone Slothrop 03-16-2006 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Spanky, why do you think other countries do just as good a job at protecting the rights we protect through the Fourth Amendment?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From a cost benefit perspective this is an absurd question. The exclusionary rule is a drastic measure that can only be justified to stop something that is extraordinarily heinous. The consequence of letting cleary guilty defendents go free requires that such an act also provide a serious benefit to society. Otherwise such an act is not worth the cost. The exclusionary rule is meant to prevent aggregious violations of the fourth amendment, not to slighty increase the effectiveness of the fourth amenmdent.
Be that as it may, my question to you was about the benefit side of the analysis, not the costs. I'm asking why basis you have for thinking that other countries do a good job of protecting a right to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures.

Quote:

In countrys that don't have the exclusionary rule they do seem to be able to protect peoples rights and yet they don't let Child molesters or murderers go free when they have evidence that clearly shows that the defendent is guilty.
I understand that you think this, but on what basis? That was my question.

Quote:

In all these countrys there doesn't seem to be a huge outcry or a serious problem concerning Police searches.
Maybe they just have lower expectations, right?

Quote:

The issue is not whether, on balance, if all these countrys protect against searches and seizures as well as we do, the question is whether without the exclusionary rule there is massive police misconduct.
That wasn't my question. If you don't value the benefits -- i.e., the rights protected by the Fourth Amendment -- much, fine, but some of us do.

Quote:

There is no such outcry, which demonstrates that the heinouse and drastic consequences of the application of the exclusionary rule are clearly not necessary.
Um, no. If you banned the sale of baguettes in Cincinnati, I wager there would be little outcry. If you did so in Paris, the government would fall. The difference has nothing to do with the intrinsic worth of baguettes.

Secret_Agent_Man 03-16-2006 12:14 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
What's to discuss, other than it's a massive fucking bungle. Then again, the basis on which they were trying to get him was pretty thin.
I guess you have a point. The death penalty case against him was always going to be a very tough sell, because they had to show that IF he had spilled the beans the government could have prevented the 9/11 attacks.

That said, I am just astounded that it was a senior attorney (51 y/o), not a neophyte -- and that among her misconduct she: (a) just flat-out violated a Court order by showing trial transcripts to the planned witnesses; (b) coached them in writing in a pretty blatant manner; and (c) flat-out lied to the DOJ prosecutors by saying that the TSA witnesses refused to meet with defense counsel when she had never even asked them. [The last point coming to light only at the hearing on the first point.]

It is also remarkable that she bugged her people enough that one called the DOJ prosecution team to report the communications. This goes beyond a bungle; it is extraordinary misconduct. Judge Brinkema personally read Martin her Miranda rights after she took the stand -- which led to her refusing to testify. This will cost the lady her job, and perhaps her license.

The prosecution team must want to skin her alive.

S_A_M

Replaced_Texan 03-16-2006 12:21 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I guess you have a point. The death penalty case against him was always going to be a very tough sell, because they had to show that IF he had spilled the beans the government could have prevented the 9/11 attacks.

That said, I am just astounded that it was a senior attorney (51 y/o), not a neophyte -- and that among her misconduct she: (a) just flat-out violated a Court order by showing trial transcripts to the planned witnesses; (b) coached them in writing in a pretty blatant manner; and (c) flat-out lied to the DOJ prosecutors by saying that the TSA witnesses refused to meet with defense counsel when she had never even asked them. [The last point coming to light only at the hearing on the first point.]

It is also remarkable that she bugged her people enough that one called the DOJ prosecution team to report the communications. This goes beyond a bungle; it is extraordinary misconduct. Judge Brinkema personally read Martin her Miranda rights after she took the stand -- which led to her refusing to testify. This will cost the lady her job, and perhaps her license.

The prosecution team must want to skin her alive.

S_A_M
According to reports, she's been put on leave at the TSA.

There was an article yesterday that had her mother saying that she must have been concentrating on something else when the judge gave the order not to give transcripts to the witnesses. Given that the order was written, and if the Rule had been invoked is a pretty basic admonition, I can't imagine how she thought it would have been ok to forward transcripts to witnesses.

I do have to admire the witnesses for bringing the e-mails to the attention of the prosecution, though.

I imagine her lawyer will be telling her mother to shut the fuck up from here on out.

Secret_Agent_Man 03-16-2006 12:21 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
If you were the judge, would you allow the Govt. to introduce brand-new witnesses, not previously disclosed, in the penalty phase of a capital trial?
Probably not, even with a suitable recess -- particularly given that the old witnesses were sticken due to government misconduct.

RT -- the prosecutors can appeal, but the DJ has broad discretion to impose sanctions for trial misconduct and the violation of its orders. It is tough to show abuse of discretion -- particularly when the Court did not technically do anything more than bar the witnesses directly related to the misconduct.

To address Spanky's anticipated concern -- (a) the 4th Amendment has nothing to do with this; and (b) the guy will get a minimum of Life w/o Parole under his guilty plea. This is the sentencing phase of the case.

Secret_Agent_Man 03-16-2006 12:23 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Given that the order was written, and if the Rule had been invoked is a pretty basic admonition, I can't imagine how she thought it would have been ok to forward transcripts to witnesses.
Such an order is not uncommon.

S_A_M

taxwonk 03-16-2006 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If you banned the sale of baguettes in Cincinnati, I wager there would be little outcry. If you did so in Paris, the government would fall.
Not if they gave away cake.

Hank Chinaski 03-16-2006 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Um, no. If you banned the sale of baguettes in Cincinnati, I wager there would be little outcry. If you did so in Paris, the government would fall. The difference has nothing to do with the intrinsic worth of baguettes.
Hmmmm, baguettes in Cincinnati are of far lower quality than those available on almost any street in the City of Lights. Perhaps that weakens your argument?

Sidd Finch 03-16-2006 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
That wasn't my question. If you don't value the benefits -- i.e., the rights protected by the Fourth Amendment -- much, fine, but some of us do.
See, Ty? That's where you are wrong. While initially Spanky may have said the question was whether other countries didn't do as good a job protecting their citizens against unreasonable search and seizure, NOW the only relevant question is whether they see "massive police misconduct."

Ya' gotta keep up.

(I think we're also no longer using 30-year old movies as "support." What's really sad is that this means Spanky's posts have even less support than before.)

Tyrone Slothrop 03-16-2006 01:05 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
This will cost the lady her job, and perhaps her license.

The prosecution team must want to skin her alive.
The prosecution suggested to the court that her conduct may have been criminal.

Tyrone Slothrop 03-16-2006 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Hmmmm, baguettes in Cincinnati are of far lower quality than those available on almost any street in the City of Lights. Perhaps that weakens your argument?
Why do you hate America? If you like France that much, why don't you move there?

notcasesensitive 03-16-2006 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
In countrys that don't have the exclusionary rule they do seem to be able to protect peoples rights and yet they don't let Child molesters or murderers go free when they have evidence that clearly shows that the defendent is guilty. In all these countrys there doesn't seem to be a huge outcry or a serious problem concerning Police searches.
Putting aside the "countrys" thing, I'd love to know why in Spankyland Child and Police are proper names. Child when used as an adjective even. Fascinating.

Hank Chinaski 03-16-2006 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Why do you hate America? If you like France that much, why don't you move there?
I'd be afraid of police searching my stuff all the time- but no worries! 4 words: Timeshare near Epcot Center!

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 03-16-2006 01:12 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The prosecution suggested to the court that her conduct may have been criminal.
Once again, let me be the first to advocate corporal punishment. This wouldn't happen if we'd just cut off the fingers she used to forward those documents.

ltl/fb 03-16-2006 01:30 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Once again, let me be the first to advocate corporal punishment. This wouldn't happen if we'd just cut off the fingers she used to forward those documents.
It's possible to do this using one's nose and palms, or even wrist stubs.

Hank Chinaski 03-16-2006 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Putting aside the "countrys" thing, I'd love to know why in Spankyland Child and Police are proper names. Child when used as an adjective even. Fascinating.
I'm troubled by your use of quotation marks for 1 word you question, but not the others. It truly throws off my ability to consider your point, such as it it.

futbol fan 03-16-2006 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Putting aside the "countrys" thing, I'd love to know why in Spankyland Child and Police are proper names. Child when used as an adjective even. Fascinating.
I think Spanky may be a German agent.

notcasesensitive 03-16-2006 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I'm troubled by your use of quotation marks for 1 word you question, but not the others. It truly throws off my ability to consider your point, such as it it.
I'm troubled by your stutter.

Gattigap 03-16-2006 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I'm troubled by your use of quotation marks for 1 word you question, but not the others. It truly throws off my ability to consider your point, such as it it.
OK, maybe today Sober Hank really isn't loaded for bear.

Secret_Agent_Man 03-16-2006 02:58 PM

South Dakota question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The prosecution suggested to the court that her conduct may have been criminal.
That'll teach the b---- to lie to them!

It is also a good way to disassociate DOJ and those lawyers from her misconduct, not that it helps much.

S_A_M

P.S. Note the punctuation, Burger.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 03-16-2006 03:55 PM

FAA
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
There was an article yesterday that had her mother saying that she must have been concentrating on something else when the judge gave the order not to give transcripts to the witnesses. Given that the order was written, and if the Rule had been invoked is a pretty basic admonition, I can't imagine how she thought it would have been ok to forward transcripts to witnesses.
Was she on the trial team?

I'm not trying to excuse it, because it's not, but I can imagine she's the FAA liaison to the trial team. But she's not actually attending the trial. The trial folks send her transcripts on a group email. She gets the brilliant idea to help her "clients" by coaching them.

Think of her as in-house counsel. Do they always go the trials and pay attention to the court orders? Probably not. Not saying they shouldn't; just acknowledging reality.

Replaced_Texan 03-16-2006 04:01 PM

FAA
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Was she on the trial team?

I'm not trying to excuse it, because it's not, but I can imagine she's the FAA liaison to the trial team. But she's not actually attending the trial. The trial folks send her transcripts on a group email. She gets the brilliant idea to help her "clients" by coaching them.

Think of her as in-house counsel. Do they always go the trials and pay attention to the court orders? Probably not. Not saying they shouldn't; just acknowledging reality.
No idea. I sort of got the impression that she was in the courtroom, but I don't think she was behind the bar.

Replaced_Texan 03-16-2006 04:03 PM

This seems sort of embarrassing, given this. (spree: articles about spending and debt)

futbol fan 03-16-2006 04:15 PM

Thursday Poll - Cross Post From FB
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
This seems sort of embarrassing, given this. (spree: articles about spending and debt)
After the current administration and its progeny finish destroying our environment, infrastructure, economy and public institutions, do you think the ensuing dystopia will look more like Mad Max or Blade Runner?

My head says Mad Max but my heart wants Blade Runner - at least they had those cool flying cars.


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