My old sock is dead
 

You told Brant. He told me. Yes, yes?

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

I'm with Sebby on this one.

Take Ron Paul, for instance. It's not just "I got mine"; it's also "We whites got ours". It's not just about greed.

Groucho Marxism
 

Is there something inherently wrong with wanting to keep what one has?

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Is there any piece of low hanging fruit you won't grab? I mean, really, do you honestly think Paul's a racist? No, you don't. But you're happy to try to confuse the fact that he has some loathsome folowers with the man's message. Do you think you can pull off that cheap confusion, even in jest, on a board full of fucking lawyers?

Groucho Marxism
 

Hell no. Ain't much use for tax planning and lawyering in a Socialist system.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Are you paying attention Do you not realize that most Paul supporters are young, moronic, "disenfranchised" leftists?

Here in SF, for instance, they are almost exclusively Berkeley types who (i) would normally either sit out an election entirely or vote for some other nutjob like Lyndon Larouche and (ii) have nothing whatsoever to do with the Republican party.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

At best, he actively encourages the troglodyte followers. At worst, he embraces many of their views.

Unless, of course, you objectively believe that 95% of all black men in D.C. have criminal tendancies. Or think freeing the slaves wasn't that positive a thing.

But, yeah, on this board, the softballs need to be hit.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

OK, so who do you blame Huckabee on? Or Romney?

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Dennis Kucinich's poll numbers track Ron Paul's favorably. Of course, when Slave or someone else here posts shit he says "we are focusing on some irrelevant extreme.

You should go find some David Duke stuff to post next week.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Find me a poll where DK is north of 5%; Ron Paul is showing up as high as 10%, and is topping Fruitcake in Iowa polls. While I suspect he'll fade a bit and end up around 5th in Iowa, he conceivably could go as high as third.

I hope you Rs are not quite as batshit crazy as current poll numbers suggest, but let's revisit the discussion this time tomorrow.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

I don't think there is anything per se wrong with wanting to keep what you have. My objection is the people who pay $20,000 a year to put a kid in private school, but vote against a $250 increase in their property tax bill to pay for building a public school.

I think that people, especially people who are born white, middle-class, and professionally trained, who speak of Darwin as a social construct are trying to foool themselves, because they certainly aren't fooling anyone with intelligence. I don't pay more to the gov't than my taxes as due, but I also don't favor taxing dividends and capital gains more favorably than the wages of honest labor.

I don't counsel my clients to take overly-aggressive stances regarding taxes. I follow the law, much like I assume you do. And I think you've got a lot of stones to suggest otherwise.

Groucho Marxism
 

One thing you "has" is an Army, doing what you have asserted all over this board is the right thing. Is there something inherently wrong about not being willing to pay for it?

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

I'll give you Kucinich. And Edwards. I think they're both idiots. And if either one of them were pulliing the same kind of numbers Paul is, I'd be as afraid of their supporters, too.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

In order:

1. I agree with you there. Under that limited hypo, that is greedy.

2. I think people who are born white, middle class and favor wealth redistribution are irrational, and suffering undiagnosed a self-loathing or guilt of some kind I've happily avoided. I also think gains on money already taxed once should be taxed at a discount rate. I do NOT agree with the current taxation of carried interest that Scwartzman and his industry are exploiting. That's a gain on someone else's money. But I do think the gains he makes on his own money which is pooled with the funds of others should be taxed at a lower rate. That's just fair.

By the way, what's "honest" labor? Are your capital gains dishonest? Were your granparents' CSX dividends the fruits of chicancery? Is your 401K a fraud device? And if that's dishonest, what about interest? Are banks dishonestly charging that? Nobody toils in the mines for those monthly interest payments on loans. I guess that's just more dishonest money being made off other money.

3. I didn't say you violated the law. Aggressive and illegal are not synonyms. If they are in your industry, excuse my ignorance on that.

BTW, you know I like you. We just really don't see eye to eye on this.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

You really are disconnected from all reality.

Ron Paul's supporters have spammed every poll, every chart, every blog - hell, everything - to make his numbers appear high.

Say what you will about the "unibomber" set - they know how to scam mass media.

Groucho Marxism
 

Not me, brother. I'd never have sent them into Iraq, and I am ashamed at how they're paid. Every bit of pork should be abolished and given to them. They ought to be paid as much as our economy will bear. I can't think of a higher risk premium deserving a better return. That filth like Ted Stevens can lard up bills with billions in pork while soldiers don't have the right fucking armor and are losing their houses and jobs because of a war a pack of bought and paid for degenerates supported makes me want to vomit.

I'm not against paying a fair share of taxes. I'm just against paying them to the people in DC. If I could pay my taxes directly to soldiers but it would cost me a few thousand more I'd sign up tomorrow and happily write the check.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Uh, Edwards is running second in Iowa - close to first.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...64367920080103

PS - the most important line in that article is that "only 250,000 Iowans are expected to vote"

Repeat that again, and think about the disproportionate power a few Big 10 corn farmers have on the political discourse in this country. Utterly disgusting.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Huckabee is yet another smiley, centrist from Arkansas. I thought the Democrat party loved smiley, centrists from Arkansas?

What's generally wrong with Romney? Although I'm a Rudy guy, I'd damn well trust the founder of Bain Capital over a no-experience, empty suit like Obama or [pick an adjective] like Hillary.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Uh, read a lot of what you've written today, then Google some of Edwards' "Two Americas" stuff. Perhaps it's an inability to draw the nuanced differences between your positions in a rapid fire medium like this, but what you've argued today and what he argues look pretty similar.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Romney's a robot. He's a soulless shitbag who doesn't have the balls to stick by a single conviction. David Brooks destroyed him in a Times editorial this week that said it all:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/01/op...=1&oref=slogin

Yes, I'd vote for him, but only as a last resort. They're all scumbags, but even Hillary and Rudy have the decency to stand by some of their core beliefs.

Groucho Marxism
 

Cite please. Show me where I've advocated the elimination of all taxes?

That said - let's take a prime, current example:

Taxes for ethanol subsidies - subsidies which make corn growers rich while double whammying everyone else with higher general taxes AND simultaneously raising the price of gasoline and food [Brilliant!] are indefensible - even from a guy from Chicago.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Romney famously ran to the left of Ted Kennedy in MA, now is trying to run to the right of everyone in the GOP field. Who's the empty suit?

Groucho Marxism
 

You're reading too much National Review. But I must admit, I do love the "recharacterize the opponent's argument as something absurd" tactic.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

He'd boil his children alive on national television for the Presidency. Of all the people running, a crowd of creeps like few I've seen before, he stands head and shoulders above everyone else as the person you'd least like to be stuck next to in coach. He's like an old, dull version of Reese Witherspoon's atrocious character in 'Election."

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

You are perhaps confusing "empty" with "shady"

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

http://www.presidentpolls2008.com/po...ion-Polls.html

http://www.presidentpolls2008.com/po...ion-Polls.html

2 to 3 %

Here's an unofficial poll for you
 

How many of you right now are actually supporting SOMEONE?

I'm not talking about the ostensible nominee for your party - hell, 2008 is shaping up to be a repeat of 2004; namely, most people will merely vote AGAINST the nominee of the other party*

I have said countless times I am FOR Giuliani.

I think it is safe to say that Ty is FOR Obama.

But is anyone else out there seriously and actually committed to any of these folks?

Please discuss.



*If anyone here admits they voted FOR Bush or FOR Kerry (except maybe Panda), they are lying.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Putting aside his religion (which I don't think he really cares about), I will take the competent technocrat over the rest of the blowhards and ideologues every time.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

From the Volokh Conspiracy:

Prof. Brad Smith on Why He Supports Mitt Romney for President:

"For politically oriented libertarians, politics is the art of picking the most libertarian candidate who has a chance of winning.

Bill Richardson has no chance of winning, and the other Democratic hopefuls offer nothing to supporters of limited government. On the Republican side, we can safely skip the Ron Paul debate -- he is not going to be the next president of the United States. John McCain sometimes blunders into support of limited government, but his usual reaction to his personal whim of the day is that government should do something about it. And, his honorable service to his country notwithstanding, his unstable personality and temper make him uniquely unqualified for the presidency.

That leaves three electable candidates who can offer some legitimate claim to libertarian sympathies -- Mitt Romney, Rudy Giuliani, and Fred Thompson. Romney is an easy choice.

Governor Romney's tax policy should make a libertarian's mouth water. It begins with the no-brainers -- make the Bush tax cuts permanent, eliminate the estate tax, and nix any increase in social security taxes. In addition, Romney has proposed substantial reductions in the corporate tax rate, where the United States rate is now one of the highest among the Western democracies, and in individual income tax rates, across the board. He has proposed eliminating all taxes on dividends and interest for those earning less than $200,000. One of Governor Romney's most important yet overlooked proposals is to make all spending on health care premiums and medical expenses tax deductible, an initiative that will do much to rationalize health care markets by putting individual coverage on the same plane as employer-provided health plans.

Romney is a talented businessman with an understanding of how start-up enterprises and a dynamic, growth oriented economy work. He understands how Sarbanes-Oxley is costing the U.S. is predominant place in world capital markets, and will take an ax to the Washington regulatory machine. As the Club for Growth says, Governor Romney has “an intuitive appreciation for free markets.” It's in his blood.

Romney is a strong supporter of free trade, as befits his background helping companies compete in the global economy. On immigration, Romney has exactly the right position -- opposition to illegal immigration (which libertarians should oppose if only because it undercuts support for legal immigration) while acting, “to encourage legal immigration and streamline the system.”

At one time, Romney, Rudy and Thompson all supported the egregious McCain-Feingold campaign finance bill. Rudy and Fred have since trimmed their sails, but only Romney has forthrightly admitted that his prior support was in error, and come out four-square in favor of the law's repeal.

Romney supports school choice and home schooling. And Mitt will appoint good judges.

Of course, it is one thing to have an agenda, and another to deliver. Both Romney and Rudy have shown an impressive ability to make headway on tax and spending issues in the face of overwhelmingly liberal legislatures and political cultures deeply attached to high levels of regulation and taxation. Despite a generally admirable voting record, Senator Thompson lacks the executive experience of Governor Romney and Mayor Giuliani, and it is difficult to name any issue, during his eight years in the Senate, on which he took the lead in promoting smaller government. The one bill which he played a critical role in passing was the odious McCain-Feingold legislation.

On its 2006 Governors Fiscal Policy Report Card, the Cato Institute rated Romney 12th overall and 7th of 26 Republicans. In 2004, Cato put Romney 11th overall, and 8th among Republicans. The Club for Growth has praised his “support for broad based tax cuts in liberal Massachusetts.” It is true that in addition to cutting spending in order to balance the budget deficit he inherited, Governor Romney supported a variety of fee hikes and the closing of “loopholes” in the tax code. Given the overwhelming Democratic majorities in the state legislature (137-23 in the House, 33-7 in the Senate), it is not realistic to think that the budget could have been balanced by spending cuts alone. Politics is the art of the possible --as it is, many of Governor Romney's spending vetoes were overridden by the legislature. In Washington, Romney will not face Democratic legislative majorities of such magnitude. Meanwhile, Governor Romney was victorious in what the Club for Growth calls a “bloody fight” with the legislature over the state capital gains tax, winning a rebate of $275 million for state taxpayers. He proposed reductions in the state income tax. During his tenure, state spending rose by an average of just 2.22% per year, versus annualized inflation and population growth of 3.0%. By comparison, under Mayor Giuliani spending in New York City rose at an average rate of 2.84%, versus population growth and inflation of 2.9%. Over a four year presidency, those differences would add up to nearly $80 billion in reduced government spending.

As Governor, Romney actually vetoed an increase in the state's minimum wage. He also successfully vetoed a legislative effort to put a moratorium on the opening of charter schools.

Governor Romney is a man who knows how to get things done, from his success in business, to turning around the Salt Lake Olympic Games, to running a remarkable campaign for President that most observers thought was totally improbable just two years ago. Halting and reversing the growth of government requires more than just the right views -- it requires the right abilities. Governor Romney has those abilities.

In foreign policy, libertarians were among the staunchest foes of communism during the Cold War. We should be equally in the forefront in the battle against the current threat to Western liberal values, Islamic extremism. The Cold war lasted over 40 years, and although it sometimes involved significant military action (most notably in Korea and Vietnam for the U.S., and in Afghanistan for the USSR), the principle antagonists avoided direct conflict on the battlefield. It was a series of small proxy wars, intelligence battles, and economic and diplomatic pressure. The United States must begin to think of the fight with Islamic extremism in similar terms -- as a long commitment in which conventional armies are of limited use. Romney is a candidate who is serious about the threats presented: resolute, but not bellicose; prepared to use force when necessary, but mindful of the limits of conventional warfare; aware of the need to win hearts and minds but not naïve about the nature of our enemies. Trade, commerce, and appropriate restraint will mark a Romney foreign policy.

Libertarians must understand that the Democratic nominee is going to be committed to a substantial growth in government, will probably be working with an even more statist Democratic Congress, and will appoint judges who see the Constitution's restraints on government power as obstacles to overcome rather than limits to heed. Governor Romney has demonstrated the ability to plan and run a first rate campaign, and to reassemble the elements of the Reagan coalition (including its non-libertarian elements) that resulted in the most libertarian Presidency of the last 80 years. He has a proven record of executive experience that Senator Thompson cannot match. While Governor Romney and Mayor Giuliani offer similar economic prescriptions and have each demonstrated ability to see them through In hostile circumstances, the Governor's opposition to McCain-Feingold, support for free trade (the Mayor has opposed NAFTA), and more restrained attitude toward the use of U.S. power abroad make him the preferred choice. His pro-growth tax proposals, proven record of controlling and even rolling back government spending and regulation, support for basic individual freedoms such as home schooling and the right to bear arms, and ultimately his ability to defeat the whichever unrepentant statist wins the Democratic nomination, make him the place where libertarians should be in 2008."

Groucho Marxism
 

I used to think that libertarians cared about more than (their own) property rights.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Obama is not a scumbag.

I have thought all along that I am inclined to vote for Obama but might change my mind by the time I get to vote. (E.g., I think I would vote for Edwards over HRC if they were the two leaders and Obama didn't have a shot.) I still feel this way, but the time for someone to change my mind is shrinking.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

I am in your debt. Romney 2008!

Like I said, I would vote for him. I just don't like him.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

It's largely the fact that I've given the nuanced, detailed explanations a million times already. I'm not in favor of wealth redistribution. I'm opposed to people who don't deserve them getting tax breaks.

I don't think that CSX dividends (earned by someone else's grandaprents maybe, mine ran a drugstore) should be taxed at a lower rate than the salary I earn or the hourly wage a stockboy earns at Wa-Mart.

I also think it's bullshit to try and characterize capital gains as money that has already been taxed. You don't get taxed on what you put in, that's called basis and you recover it before teh first penny is taxed as capital gain. I don't think we need to provide an incentive for people to make money. And I think that if we do, then we should provide me an incentive to show up every day and earn my paycheck.

The last point, by the way, is one of the things we agree on. Steve Schwartzmann, Henry Kravis, and Leon Black are getting a break on their paychecks. We both think that's wrong.

You were right, there are a lot of things we agree on and a lot we disagree on. You've seen me say all this before. You should know better than to lump me in with somebody who thinks that every family in America with an income over $250,000 should be forced to buy a car and a color tv for a Mom on welfare with 15 kids.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Why not? He thinks exactly what you do at least one day of the week.

Groucho Marxism
 

I've said that before. Forget about ethanol, just take farm subsidies period. I don't think we should be paying farmers not to grow food while people are starving.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

It's time to reinstate the literacy requirement for voting.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

The man has two wholly transparent characteristics: (1) he stands for absolutely nothing, and is a pure opportunist; and (2) he would sell his own daughter into slavery if it benefited him.

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft
 

Now that, that's really good.

Here's an unofficial poll for you
 

I'm for Obama. I like his message on a lot of things, but I'm pissed that he took the expediency route on tax policy. I wonder if he's got enough experience for foreign policy, but I can't think of a single Republican other than McCain who does and I disagree with Hillary.

In general, I think he'd do the least harm, and if he got enough of a majority, he might actually be a force for change.

Here's an unofficial poll for you
 

I'm not committed yet. But I consider it an abundance of riches - I truly like both Hillary and Obama. I have not warmed to Edwards.