Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Why is it that you keep trotting out this old canard instead of addressing the points in Kerry's speech?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Exactly why we are discussing bogus claims of flip-flopping instead of the terrible mess Bush has gotten us into in Iraq.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Again with the old flip-flop shit. Can you explain why the plan is better or worse than Bush's plan?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Sorry, mister, but this is the No Spin Zone. Was W lying when he said we couldn't when the war on terror, or was he lying when he said we could? It's a simple question.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

The quote was taken out of context. He essentially said that this is a different type of war, one we will not "win" in the sense that we did when Germany and Japan surrendered or the Wall came tumbling down, because we are not at war with nation states capable of surrender.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

I will take a shot at it if you can describe how his plan differs from the way the war is currently being prosecuted. Doing it "better" doesn't give me much to work with.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Now you're spinning like Ivan over Jamaica. How about this one?

"You got to be able to speak clearly in order to make this world a more peaceful place," Bush said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._on_el_pr/bush

Is W now endorsing Kerry?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Well, I'll certainly agree with you that it was unscripted. That comment alone probably aged Rove by 10 years.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Okay, you've now supplied the context. I suppose that might be helpful in case any highschoolers are hanging out; the context is pretty fucking obvious to anybody who thinks about it for a second.

Now, fill in the missing link in your assertion. Explain how what Bush said doesn't mean we can't win the war on terror.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

If you keep misunderstanding him, there is nothing more I can do for you.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Exactly.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Apparently not. See SS' post above.

Too many double negatives for me.

eft

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Are you suggesting that Kerry would, under the plan he laid out, do as well at prosecuting the war in Iraq as Bush? I'm willing to live with that. I think Bush's greater potential for damage lies at home and that's why I'm voting against him. It's you guys who have been playing the "Vote for Kerry and we'll all die" card.

If Kerry will do as well as Bush at prosecuting the war then it seems to me it's time to move on to other topics.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

POTD.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

No. As I understand it, the gist of his plan is that he will do what Bush is already doing, only "better." I don't really know what that means.

And I note that I was very critical of Cheney's statement, so don't pin this one on me.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

You forget Kerry's "secret plan" to get more allies on board.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Tough to imagine him getting fewer involved.

I don't think Kerry's plan is much of a secret. It's fairly commonsense and can be boiled down to, "Don't piss off EVERYBODY ELSE in the WHOLE FUCKING WORLD by treating them like shit." Seemed to work pretty well in previous administrations (Bush I included).

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Well, since he insulted everyone who did get involved, I am not only imagining it, I'm visualizing it.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

The Moroccan Monkeys don't count.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Okay, lets assume it was an intended statement (absurd assumption, but still). He was talking about predictive results, not what he'd do to achieve results.
If Kerry said "I think I can get France to help" then a week later said "I'm not sure I can get France to help" that might be similar to what Bush said. Bush hasn't changed whether he'd try and kill the terrorists, right?

Flip-flopping on what the results might be- okay.
Flip-flopping on how you'll try and achieve the result- bad.

Bush Speaks
 

"The first part of the question was, how come we haven't found Zarqawi. We're looking for him. He hides. He is -- he is -- he's got a effective weapon, and that is terror." Sep. 23, 2004

Terror is an effective weapon?

"The Prime Minister said something very interesting a while ago, and it's important for the American people to understand. Our strategy is to help the Iraqis help themselves. It's important that we train Iraqi troops. There are nearly 100,000 troops trained. The Afghan national army is a part of the army. By the way, it's the nassy -- Afghan national army that went into Najaf and did the work there." Sep. 23, 2004

The Afghani army subdued Najaf??

"Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat." Sep. 17, 2004

"From its birth in the 1630s, the Guard protected the early colonists and helped win the War on Independence." Sep. 14, 2004

Say what?

"Remember Abu Nidal? He killed Leon Klinghoffer. Abu Nidal and his organization was in Iraq. Zarqawi, he's still lingering around. He had an organization. He's got ties to al Qaeda. He's the guy who beheads people to shake our conscience. He was in and out of Baghdad. Saddam Hussein paid the families of suiciders." Sep. 13, 2004

"Suiciders?" Abu Abbas/Abu Nidal - whatever.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Afghanistan
Albania
Angola
Australia
Azerbaijan
Bulgaria
Colombia
Costa Rica
Czech Republic
Denmark
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Georgia
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Japan
Kuwait
Latvia
Lithuania
Macedonia
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Mongolia
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Palau
Panama
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Rwanda
Singapore
Slovakia
Solomon Islands
Turkey
Uganda
Ukraine
United Kingdom
Uzbekistan

Not exactly Hello's "party of one"

Ergo, he refers to steadfast allies such as Australia as the "coalition of the bribed"

Great plan.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Whew! I thought we were fucked until I saw that Palau and the Solomon Islands we with us.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

If you are going to quote Kerry campaign materials, please provide a link.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

2 to what SS said.

And - sadly, Slave -- your list is dated. Rock-ribbed ally Costa Rica had to withdraw from the coalition.

• Costa Rica asked the United States to remove it from a list of Iraq coalition partners Thursday, after the Constitutional Court ruled inclusion on the list violated the country's pacifist principles.
  
  Foreign Minister Roberto Tovar said a diplomatic note had been delivered to the U.S. embassy in San Jose Thursday.
  
  "The court has ordered me to get the country's name off that list, and that's what I'm doing," he said.

Great. We've gone from leader of the free world to being an administrative annoyance!

Well, at least this list of allies wasn't merely bureacratic bullshit. Will CR be removing its massive contingent of troops anytime soon as a result?

Uh, no.

• Tom Casey, a State Department spokesman, said Costa Rica's membership in the coalition was an expression of the country's opposition to terrorism, and noted that Costa Rica provided neither troops nor economic assistance for Iraq's reconstruction.

things proven today
 

Today, contrary to usual, we actually were able to prove several things.

1 Despite the Dems allegations of environmental back sliding they cannot point to a single relevant change. Thus, we have proven there was no backsliding.

2 Kerry will likely turn off more allies, and there is an arrogance from the Dems of the value of small countries as friends.

3 The sole alleged Bush flop is a meaningless change of a predicition in result, not policy or plan like the dozens of Kerry changes.

4 SS is brain damage.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

You know, you guys belittle the allies that we have.

What or who is the alternative?

Name on single country - not on that list - that would provide worthwhile support in either personnel or monetary assistance?

Franco-Prussia? Will never happen in our lifetime.

Russia? Ha. Besides, look how their help in WW II turned out.

Mexico? Canada?

In all seriousness, the bottom line is that the countries we need are the countries we got. All other "commitments" are nothing but meaningless lip service.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Why don't you compare the list of countries and their contributions from Gulf War I and Gulf War II. George H.W. Bush understood the value of putting together a real coalition and building international support. His son understood the value of a PR strategy designed to obfuscate the difference between the earlier strategy and what he was actually doing.

things proven today
 

Uh huh. :rolleyes:

It used to be that our allies provided more than moral support, though I agree with you that standing up to be counted on a list is important, just as it's important to treasure the small things in life, and friendship is undoubtedly one of them. Truly precious, like the warm breezes of (say) Micronesia.

OK, here you've got me.

things proven today
 

The EPA finalized the most significant weakening of clean air rules since Congress passed the Clean Air Act in 1970 in 2003. Look it up. How's your kid's asthma doing?

things proven today
 

Bush has championed the biggest inititive, and overseen the greatest result in increasing alternative energy cars and resultant emission reduction. Look it up.

See! Provide a real cite and some "evidence" of harm and I'll blow it apart.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Are some of those even countries? I thought Micronesia was a US territory. Ditto with Soloman Islands and Marshall Islands. So I looked up Micronesia in the CIA Factbook to see. Sure 'nuff Miconesia is a country! From the CIA:

Military - Federated States of Micronesia (FSM) is a sovereign, self-governing state in free association with the US; FSM is totally dependent on the US for its defense

Economic Overview - Economic activity consists primarily of subsistence farming and fishing.

GDP - purchasing power parity - $277 million
note: GDP is supplemented by grant aid, averaging perhaps $100 million annually (2002 est.)

Industries - tourism, construction, fish processing, specialized aquaculture, craft items from shell, wood, and pearls


Now you've given us a beeg beeg list. Tell us how these countries are participating. You can start with Micronesia, which has no military, no economy (other than what it receives from the US in grants), and no industry other than sea shell trinkets.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

http://www.cryan.com/war/AlliedForces.html

Here is a list. As you can see, the notable absences are the Canadian hardware and the 18,000 French troops.

No German, Belgian or Russian troops to be seen.

We seemed to have picked up a lot more former Soviet Bloc countries this time around. And we aren't exactly lacking in transports or hardware.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Wow. Even the US sent more troops last time. And we were just liberating Kuwait, not trying to occupy Iraq.

things proven today
 

You are exactly what Sebby was talking about: the dumbest of dumb...the person who defends his party at any cost. Again, like an Italian family member, you don't care if Uncle Tony whacked his girlfriend. He's family, so he can do no wrong. Welcome to Dipshitville. Population: You.

Read this interview.

"Buckheit spent the last 20 years of his government career working on air quality issues, most recently as director of the Environmental Protection Agency's Air Enforcement Division. But in December, he made a difficult decision to retire from the EPA."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4759864/

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

I don't belittle the allies that we have. For example, I think the UK and Australia stepped up, big time.

But I am laughing at the notion that you seem to think a big long list of countries, the majority of whom were added for moral support and contributed absolutely nothing in terms of manpower or materiel, constitutes an overwhelming coalition. This is a PR list, Slave. Even the Administration hasn't had the chutzpah to wave it around recently, and for this crowd that's a pretty impressive bar.


Ty's suggestion to compare GWI and GWII is not a bad place to start.

In all seriousness, I can't believe that you really believe this.

Jesus, Slave. Keep reading. There's also 40k troops from UAE, 17k troops from Syria, 118k troops from Saudi Arabia, 11k troops from Kuwait, 40k troops from Egypt.

I think they'd come in handy these days.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

We got some Arab troops last time, and a lot more money. Plus, a truly international coalition (i.e., one not perceived as a front for us) would surely have caused less of a backlash against us there.

eta: What Gatti said.

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Handy for whom?

The world is a far different place than 1991. Why in god's name would we WANT troops from Syria, Saudi Arabia or Egypt?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

Damn straight. Hell, now that we have Micronesian sea shells, what more do we need?

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 

I understand the diceyness of deploying, say, the Turks into Kurdish regions, notwithstanding the Pentagon's original plans to do so.

But I understand somewhat less your rationale that troops from these other countries are somehow fucking worthless. I suppose, though, it would explain your insistence that "we've got all we need, thanks," as we've run fresh out of "acceptable" countries.