LawTalkers - Meet your new thread, same as the old thread.

unless you explain this, I don't think you have any ability to criticize anyone here ever again. or alternatively, I could post a grand dragon Byrd picture.

taxwonk

01-04-2008 01:37 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I understood the first part of your post. You're missing, or avoiding, my point.

You cannot tell me that a person will be just as well off in retirement with a cap gains rate equal to the tax on wages, which is what you suggested, or at least implied. Higher taxes equal less money in people's pockets. I'm no tax lawyer, but its hard for me to see that any other way. What you're now arguing is more honest. You're admitting that, yes, raising the cap gains rate would decrease the quality of people's lives both pre and post retirement. And you're admitting you are seeking a wealth redistribution from those with accumulated capital to those without. That's govt interference.

I would support wholeheartedly a tax cut for workers to bring their taxes in line with the cap gains rate. If we must have parity, I'd say that's pretty fair. If Henry Kravis can have his advantageous rate on carried interest, why not the school janitor on his paycheck? Why don't we see the argument made from that perspective? Would you support that?

And please, don't try to repackage the lower cap gains rate as govt interference to try to make yourself out to be on the side of smaller govt. That's pretty transparent. The interference is the fact that we have a govt spending ungodly sums on that ludicrous war and so much pork throughout ourt country. Ultimately, people like you and I shouldn't disagree on these things. We should get together against the common enemy that steals from everyone - our bloated Fed Govt.

Start first with a downgrading of all federal benefits. Move next to eviscerating the defense contracting industry, which looks to me like one huge subsidy for a sector of the economy that ought to be dormant except when absolutely needed (See: Not Iraq).

I didn't repackage the lower capital gains rate as government interference; that's exactly what it is. Look at Section 1 of the Internal Revenue Code and you'll see what I mean. Sec. 1(a) provides the tax rate. Sec. 1(h) provides for a reduction in that rate for dividends and capital gains.

I don't view seeking parity in tax rates as income distribution. The wage-earning population will not get one thin dime of the additional tax revenues. Wealth distribution would involve a transfer payment (e.g., refund or credit to wage-earners). Parity in tax rates simple removes a tax benefit currently afforded under the statute.

You may favor lower tax rates for everyone. I don't disagree in the abstract, although I would hold off onnreducing rates until we eliminate the deficit and reduce wasteful spending. In fact, I agree with you that without these two evils, it would be possible to reduce tax rates. We are just arguing over semantics (with respect to whether the law gives a break to dividends and cap gains) and timing.

SlaveNoMore

01-04-2008 02:08 PM

GGG = BDS: Exhibit A

Quote:

sebastian_dangerfield
That's fair. I can't argue that the GOP doesn't have most of the more obscene sorts. But spend a minute or so at DailyKos and you'll see the crazy wing of the Dems is doing its damnedest to catch up.

No, it's not fair.

Because ALL of the Dem candidates, as well as such Dem leaders as Pelosi and Reid, pander at the feet of "grassroots" [gag] organizations like MoveOn, ANSWER, CodePink and YearlyKos. They supplicate America-loathing thugs like George Soros while flooding their coffers with his money. They curiously lend support to the tin-foil hat Troofer brigade and their lies.

The GOP may tolerate their fringe elements for votes - but the fringe of the Left is the Democrats current soul.

And with each additional post, GGG is proving my point.

Gattigap

01-04-2008 02:20 PM

GGG = BDS: Exhibit A

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
No, it's not fair.

Because ALL of the Dem candidates, as well as such Dem leaders as Pelosi and Reid, pander at the feet of "grassroots" [gag] organizations like MoveOn, ANSWER, CodePink and YearlyKos. They supplicate America-loathing thugs like George Soros while flooding their coffers with his money. They curiously lend support to the tin-foil hat Troofer brigade and their lies.

The GOP may tolerate their fringe elements for votes - but the fringe of the Left is the Democrats current soul.

This is good, but for the complete tableau I think you need to include the part about Barack, Hillary and Nancy closing each tripartite meeting by drinking the blood of slain Heritage Foundation members.

sebastian_dangerfield

01-04-2008 02:25 PM

GGG = BDS: Exhibit A

Quote:

This may be a YMMV issue. Based on geography I'm sure you see a good bit more of the ludicrous side of the Dems than I do.

I don't see Obama as a darling of the Lefty Dems, and his win was decisive. Maybe I'm being naive, but he seems to be a realist. If Edwards were to get the nomination and more support from the party, that would show the Dems were indeed pandering to the silliest elements of their party. But he's not. Hell, even the NYTimes maligned him as a "trial lawyer" and "hedge fund exec" in its Oped page today.

The machine is still behind Hillary, and she's basically a centrist.

BTW, I didn't suggest the loons were the soul of the GOP. I just suggested that the GOP's loons were a little more overtly loony than the Dems'. ...And the GOP did just hand Iowa to a guy who doesn't buy Evolution, so...

SlaveNoMore

01-04-2008 02:27 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Hank Chinaski
unless you explain this, I don't think you have any ability to criticize anyone here ever again. or alternatively, I could post a grand dragon Byrd picture.

At least everyone realized Penske was a caricature - including Penske.

SlaveNoMore

01-04-2008 02:30 PM

GGG = BDS: Exhibit A

Quote:

sebastian_dangerfield
...And the GOP did just hand Iowa to a guy who doesn't buy Evolution, so...

Dissent. A couple thousand Iowans in the GOP caucus handed Iowa to Huckabee.

The "GOP" establishment has been consistently knocking him down, and his fifteen minutes are now effectively over

SlaveNoMore

01-04-2008 02:31 PM

GGG = BDS: Exhibit A

Quote:

Gattigap
This is good, but for the complete tableau I think you need to include the part about Barack, Hillary and Nancy closing each tripartite meeting by drinking the blood of slain Heritage Foundation members.

Barack is too new. He hasn't had time to reach that level of the Order yet.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

01-04-2008 02:42 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
unless you explain this, I don't think you have any ability to criticize anyone here ever again. or alternatively, I could post a grand dragon Byrd picture.

Reference to Ron Paul's discusson of why the civil war shouldn't have been fought.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

01-04-2008 02:44 PM

GGG = BDS: Exhibit A

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
...And the GOP did just hand Iowa to a guy who doesn't buy Evolution, so...

The big question is now is whether Romney will question evolution in a bid to stage a comback.

sebastian_dangerfield

01-04-2008 02:49 PM

Rudy Can Fail

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Dissent. A couple thousand Iowans in the GOP caucus handed Iowa to Huckabee.

The "GOP" establishment has been consistently knocking him down, and his fifteen minutes are now effectively over

Touche. I used "GOP" too broadly. The party does hate him, but apparently, the GOP voters don't. And since this was a caucus, which involved all those silly rules, these were not just rubes running in off the street. These were people who are seriously involved, or at least seriously interested, in GOP politics.

This is all secondary, however, to the GOP's biggest problem. They were outnumbered 2 to 1 last night by Dem voters. That's not good.

Oh, and a resurgence of the Rockefeller Republican arm of the GOP? I fear that's dead. Unless Rudy has something amazing up his sleeve, I fear thos people might be voting for Hillary, believing Rudy can't win.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

01-04-2008 02:51 PM

GGG = BDS: Exhibit A

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield

BTW, I didn't suggest the loons were the soul of the GOP. I just suggested that the GOP's loons were a little more overtly loony than the Dems'. ...And the GOP did just hand Iowa to a guy who doesn't buy Evolution, so...

On a serious note, the GOP hasn't had one soul; they've had two.

It's been a partnership between the Christian Right and the Fiscally Conservative Center for as long as I can remember. What seems to be happening is that the fiscal conservatives now mostly live in Blue States and some new alliance has to be built, likely between the Chritian Right and someone else (The Hawks McCain appeals to? The socially conservative union crowd Huckabee is focused on?). And many in the Christian Right want to be the senior partners. The Dems are bringing out bigger votes and more excitement right now, but there may be more at stake in the Republican primary.

sebastian_dangerfield

01-04-2008 02:54 PM

GGG = BDS: Exhibit A

Quote:

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
On a serious note, the GOP hasn't had one soul; they've had two.

It's been a partnership between the Christian Right and the Fiscally Conservative Center for as long as I can remember. What seems to be happening is that the fiscal conservatives now mostly live in Blue States and some new alliance has to be built, likely between the Chritian Right and someone else (The Hawks McCain appeals to? The socially conservative union crowd Huckabee is focused on?). And many in the Christian Right want to be the senior partners. The Dems are bringing out bigger votes and more excitement right now, but there may be more at stake in the Republican primary.

The GOP needs Hillary to win the nomination. An Obama nomination wreaks havoc with the master plan. He peels off way too many undecided character and independent voters who'll be put off by Evil Rudy. Rudy needs to fight another dirty, self-interested politician like Hillary.

Secret_Agent_Man

01-04-2008 03:44 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
Sorry, SAM but if there is a hunger, the hungry family is not taking advantage of a zillion programs to feed the family. You can't home invade and drag the residents out to food pantries or make them sign up for assistance.

Nonresponsive, counselor. And depending on your location, not necessarily true.

Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
If you're unintentionally starving in America, you are either stoopid/have mental issues or in the care of someone stoopid/having mental issues.

And in a country of 300,000,000 people, how many do you think fall into that category?

S_A_M

etft

futbol fan

01-04-2008 03:49 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Europe, a bloated quasi-welfare state.

They must be doing something right, because right now there are baying hordes of them milling around New York, roaming from Canal Street to upper Fifth Avenue, buying up everything in sight and laughing when they get their bar tabs. And I am not even mentioning the Canadians.

Secret_Agent_Man

01-04-2008 03:52 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
unless you explain this, I don't think you have any ability to criticize anyone here ever again. or alternatively, I could post a grand dragon Byrd picture.

I too thought that might be a bit of an overstatement. I remember the Aryan message board filled with Ron Paul fans, but 'm not sure the GOP really caters to them.

S_A_M

Secret_Agent_Man

01-04-2008 03:54 PM

GGG = BDS: Exhibit A

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
The GOP may tolerate their fringe elements for votes - but the fringe of the Left is the Democrats current soul.

No. But the stellar record of the Bush Administration has surely stirred them up.

S_A_M

notcasesensitive

01-04-2008 03:57 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Nonresponsive, counselor.

If someone ever said this phrase to me in real life, I would laugh in his/her face. Maybe it is good that I am not a litigator. Do people actually talk like this, or is that just on Law & Order*?

*I don't watch Law & Order. But I assume some currently-striking-writer for that show at some point put pen to paper and came up with "Nonresponsive, counselor." I could be wrong though.

Gattigap

01-04-2008 03:57 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
They must be doing something right, because right now there are baying hordes of them milling around New York, roaming from Canal Street to upper Fifth Avenue, buying up everything in sight and laughing when they get their bar tabs. And I am not even mentioning the Canadians.

And what's worse, parts of Europe are reconsidering their positions on mindless excess.

[I]t may be last call for drugs, sex and live-and-let-live in the Netherlands, one of the most famously broad-minded countries in the world.

Prostitution, abortion, euthanasia, same-sex marriage and magic mushrooms have long been legal here, and soft drugs such as marijuana are technically illegal but are sold with official sanction in small amounts in "coffeehouses." In recent years, however, uneasiness over an influx of Muslim and black immigrants as well as a lifestyle that many believe has gone too far have shifted the Dutch mood away from tolerance and infinite permissiveness.

In 2006, parliament stopped coffeehouses from selling alcohol if they sell marijuana; now, legislators are negotiating to have them located at least 250 yards from schools. This year, a ban on the sale of hallucinogenic mushrooms goes into effect.

LAT

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

01-04-2008 04:08 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I too thought that might be a bit of an overstatement. I remember the Aryan message board filled with Ron Paul fans, but 'm not sure the GOP really caters to them.

S_A_M

For the slavery as current issue quip, see http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archi...23/532376.aspx

It would be outrageous if it weren't true.

From what I can see, Paul is indeed getting shunned by the GOP establishment. Huckabee less so.

SlaveNoMore

01-04-2008 04:25 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Huckabee less so.

Per the exit polls, as reported in an reader email posted on the Corner:

"Huckabee took 14% of the vote and came in fourth in the Iowa caucus among non-evangelicals according to the NBC Republican exit poll [other polls come out about the same]. Huckabee's principal voting block was female born-again Christian Republicans living in non-urban rural areas with a population below 10,000. I dearly love such people, but demographically in the country at large there aren't that many of them.

When Huckabee moves out of caucus Iowa and into primary state America, he's going to get killed."

Hank Chinaski

01-04-2008 04:26 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

just show a Canadian a really big schlong and they'll blanch. I mean, that advice won't help you, but some others might benefit.

Hank Chinaski

01-04-2008 04:28 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
And what's worse, parts of Europe are reconsidering their positions on mindless excess.

[I]t may be last call for drugs, sex and live-and-let-live in the Netherlands, one of the most famously broad-minded countries in the world.

Prostitution, abortion, euthanasia, same-sex marriage and magic mushrooms have long been legal here, and soft drugs such as marijuana are technically illegal but are sold with official sanction in small amounts in "coffeehouses." In recent years, however, uneasiness over an influx of Muslim and black immigrants as well as a lifestyle that many believe has gone too far have shifted the Dutch mood away from tolerance and infinite permissiveness.

In 2006, parliament stopped coffeehouses from selling alcohol if they sell marijuana; now, legislators are negotiating to have them located at least 250 yards from schools. This year, a ban on the sale of hallucinogenic mushrooms goes into effect.

LAT

can you still kill people there if they write something bad about Islam?

SlaveNoMore

01-04-2008 04:33 PM

Obama frightens the Left???

Why The Netroots Aren’t Rejoicing Over Obama’s Caucus Win

Quote:

It finally happened. The droves of young voters motivated to ‘change’ Washington finally showed up in large enough numbers to give a ‘movement’ candidate with a surprising and convincing electoral victory. If this was 2004 and the candidate was Howard Dean, the netroots would be ecstatic. Instead, prior to last night’s results, Daily Kos founder Markos Moulitsas wrote: “Not rooting for any of these candidates, election day isn’t as exciting. Then again, I won’t have to relive the pain of Dean’s crushing defeat again. That’s a definite ‘plus’ for maintaining a cool detachment.”

So what gives? Considering the deep mistrust between Hillary Clinton and the netroots, why isn’t Obama’s victory a reason to rejoice? The Atlantic’s Marc Ambinder provided a clue when analyzing Obama’s closing message to Iowa voters: “Obama’s closing argument is more audacious than it seems; it’s an end-run around the established interests of the Democratic Party. He is angering — often deliberately — some of the party’s core constituencies.” Specifically, the community is upset that in the closing week of the campaign, Obama ran right on health care and social security, attacked trial lawyers, and suggested that John Kerry and Al Gore were divisive.

But Obama’s troubled history with netroots has a longer history. Obama once insinuated that Daily Kos was boring, and many in the community feel as though he has triangulated on Iran and Iraq since coming to the senate. Others believe Obama has cultivated his centrist appeal by avoiding controversial votes. More recently Obama issued a press release attacking progressive movement icon and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman on social security.

The Krugman dust up is particularly illuminating because Krugman’s broader criticism of Obama (that his “different kind of politics” are really just “Big Table Fantasies”) hits on a core belief of the modern progressive movement: Fundamental change can’t be accomplished by a politician who shuns partisanship. Open Left’s Chris Bowers writes: “If Obama really believes that he is somehow post-ideology, post-partisan, and capable of bringing contemporary Republicans to actually engage in real compromises over legislation in good faith, then I can’t help but think that, despite his background, he is oddly naïve.”

But Obama’s naiveté isn’t their deepest fear. As the Des Moines Register’s pre-caucus poll shows, the majority of Obama’s support comes from independents and Republicans, not registered Democrats. This is the progressive movement’s second worst nightmare: a Democratic President, elected by independents and moderates, who rhetorically rejected progressive elements to get elected. Ezra Klein blogged: “Obama’s comfort attacking liberals from the right is unsettling, and if he does win Iowa, it will not be a victory that either supporters or the media ascribe to the more progressive elements of his candidacy.” Bowers has similar thoughts: “Obama just isn’t using the same arguments or rhetoric that the progressive blogosphere uses about Republicans and Democrats. He is also … building his own, in-house activist movement instead of working with the existing progressive movement. And so, even though he is clearly at least the second favorite in the progressive blogosphere, if he wins, it will be in spite of the progressive blogosphere, rather than because of it.”

And that’s why the progressive movement is wary of an Obama victory. They fear that an Obama win will be remembered as a victory for some kind of fuzzy Obama-ism founded on bipartisan compromise and not the first victory of what they hope will be an enduring progressive coalition.

http://theheritagefoundry.org/2008/0...sed-community/

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

01-04-2008 04:33 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Per the exit polls, as reported in an reader email posted on the Corner:

"Huckabee took 14% of the vote and came in fourth in the Iowa caucus among non-evangelicals according to the NBC Republican exit poll [other polls come out about the same]. Huckabee's principal voting block was female born-again Christian Republicans living in non-urban rural areas with a population below 10,000. I dearly love such people, but demographically in the country at large there aren't that many of them.

When Huckabee moves out of caucus Iowa and into primary state America, he's going to get killed."

The latest polls show him in first in South Carolina, second to Fruitcake in Florida, and two percentage points behind Romney in Romney's home state of Michigan.

We'll see, but I think you're underestimating Huckabee.

taxwonk

01-04-2008 04:35 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
For the slavery as current issue quip, see http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archi...23/532376.aspx

It would be outrageous if it weren't true.

From what I can see, Paul is indeed getting shunned by the GOP establishment. Huckabee less so.

I thought he was supposed to be against government spending.

Quote:

"Slavery was phased out in every other country in the world," Paul continued, responding to the question if America would still have slavery had there not been the Civil War. "The way I'm proposing that it should have been done is do it like the British Empire did -- you buy the slaves and release them.

sebastian_dangerfield

01-04-2008 04:37 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

That'd be the Irish, right? I think you and I are both eligible for Irish citizenship.

A family friend just moved over there to work and he's doing well. I wonder how the hell he did it. Is it easy to get permits?

sebastian_dangerfield

01-04-2008 04:39 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
If someone ever said this phrase to me in real life, I would laugh in his/her face. Maybe it is good that I am not a litigator. Do people actually talk like this, or is that just on Law & Order*?

*I don't watch Law & Order. But I assume some currently-striking-writer for that show at some point put pen to paper and came up with "Nonresponsive, counselor." I could be wrong though.

Just L&O, and here, for rhetorical/campy effect.

Hank Chinaski

01-04-2008 04:39 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

you read this as he supports slavery? or are you just being realistic and realizing the dems would never have let the government phase it out.

ps, can you find the speech where lincoln declared the civil war to eliminate slavery?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

01-04-2008 04:41 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
you read this as he supports slavery?

Find where I said that.

taxwonk

01-04-2008 04:47 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
you read this as he supports slavery? or are you just being realistic and realizing the dems would never have let the government phase it out.

ps, can you find the speech where lincoln declared the civil war to eliminate slavery?

I suppose as a committed lieralist, you might not be able to see it, but here's the speech:

Quote:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth, upon this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that "all men are created equal"

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived, and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of it, as a final resting place for those who died here, that the nation might live. This we may, in all propriety do. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow, this ground-- The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have hallowed it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here; while it can never forget what they did here.

It is rather for us, the living, to stand here, we here be dedica-ted to the great task remaining before us -- that, from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here, gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve these dead shall not have died in vain; that the nation, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people by the people for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Hank Chinaski

01-04-2008 04:49 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
I suppose as a committed lieralist, you might not be able to see it, but here's the speech:

i was focused on "START" a war to eliminate slavery. he didn't eliminate it until he could see his side would almost certainly win the war.

sebastian_dangerfield

01-04-2008 04:49 PM

Obama frightens the Left???

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Why The Netroots Aren’t Rejoicing Over Obama’s Caucus Win

http://theheritagefoundry.org/2008/0...sed-community/

Hmmm. Who exactly do the DailyKos crazies want to win? Kucinich?

sebastian_dangerfield

01-04-2008 04:50 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
I suppose as a committed literalist

Consider that stolen.

Hank Chinaski

01-04-2008 04:50 PM

Obama frightens the Left???

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Hmmm. Who exactly do the DailyKos crazies want to win? Kucinich?

I bet ty's name comes up at the convention. motherfucker can toe a party line,

sebastian_dangerfield

01-04-2008 04:51 PM

Obama frightens the Left???

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I bet ty's name comes up at the convention. motherfucker can toe a party line,

He's an Obama fan, hence, a traitor to the "progressive" movement, whatever the fuck that is.

taxwonk

01-04-2008 04:52 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
i was focused on "START" a war to eliminate slavery. he didn't eliminate it until he could see his side would almost certainly win the war.

Well, now, had he lost, he wouldn't have been able to eliminate much of anything, would he?

Hank Chinaski

01-04-2008 04:52 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Consider that stolen.

plus nonresponsive, plus the wrong speech anyway.

taxwonk

01-04-2008 04:54 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Consider that stolen.

Spoken like a true "libertarian." You want all the benefits and you don't want to pay for them.

(That's for not giving me props for agreeing with you about government waste and cutting the overall tax rate, bitch.)

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

01-04-2008 04:56 PM

Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
plus nonresponsive, plus the wrong speech anyway.

I believe you are trying to point out Ron Paul's poor grasp of history, that the civil war was started not over slavery and its elmination but over succession; and that it was, of course, started by the South, not the North. (And give me emancipation proclamation for 100, please).

But, to give the devil his due, Paul's sense of history is superior to Huckabee's grasp of science.

I will not speak to Romney's understanding of anything, unless you first tell me which Romney we're talking about.

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