In Defense of Club
 

Thanks Wonk.

I don't think I'm a classist either. I come from modest roots. My great grand parents (who, I will note, came over 150 years after RTs line) came here with nothing but the shirts on their back. Only 1 of my grand parents had a college education. Trust me, I get it.

Interesting campaign tactic.......
 

Our system in this country. Our system that does and will continue to need to educate the children of illegal immigrants. Our system that pays emergency medical costs, pays public assistance, requires driver's licenses and other forms of ID, and on and on.

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Can you provide a cite for illegal aliens getting public assistance? I didn't think they could. Also, is there a federally based (not state-by-state) right to public education for people in the country illegally? I'm not sure on that one. Emergency medical, also not sure on, but I can see where people would get that.

ETA on the public education thing, please differentiate, as necessary, between education for children who came here illegally and education for children who were born here to parents who are not here legally. This may necessitate a discussion of whether there should be a birthright citizenship rule thingy.

Gracias!

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Follow the conversation you dolt. We are talking about how much the system can handle. That assumes they would legally be here in the first place.

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As twenty random immigrants the following:

"Did you come to America for freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or because you believed you could make a better living for yourself and your family?"

My guess is you'll get the "better living" response at least 15 times. Feel free to start with my parents -- as minimally devout Roman Catholics in Italy they didn't have much issue with freedom of religion, and they don't seem to care too strongly about freedom of speech, but they sure as hell liked being able to feed their kids and put us thru school.

Interesting campaign tactic.......
 

The name-calling is charming. Thanks for the clarification.

In other news...
 

There's a very entertaining article on the front page of today's WSJ outlining how the Abramoff scandal broke.

I think there is a lesson here for us all: if you are at the center of a giant scheme to barter political influence for huge sums of cash, do not dump your fiancee for a 24 year old waitress a month before the wedding.

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Well, with EMTALA, anyone who shows up in an ER should be evaluated and stabilized, no matter ability to pay or status. So there are costs associated with that (though, in assessing those costs, there should be an analysis of the taxes that undocumented aliens are paying). (Note: the board of the Harris County Hospital District threatened to quit in 2000 when it was suggested that the District stop treating illegal immigrants.)

As for the children of undocumented aliens, if they're born in the United States, they're United States citizens, and regardless of their parents' status, we do have an obligation to educate them. According to the Pew Hispanic Center, there are 3.1 million of them. The question is what to do about the 1.8 million kids who are unauthorized. Again, their parents are likely paying property and sales taxes, which often go towards school finance.

This is probably a good report to read to better understand the population that we're talking about. I think that these are the statistics that have club so worried:
Characteristics of Unauthorized
• Who Are They?
-- Mainly in Families
-- Relatively Young
-- Almost All Work
• What Are They Like?
-- Low Education
-- Low Income
-- High Poverty
-- Lack of Insurance

I did find it interesting that 25% of undocumented aliens had some college background. I would have thought it much less.

In other news...
 

A propos of ethics reform, I think Congress should take a page from Nigeria:

Soccer refs should take bribes but remain neutral.

Interesting campaign tactic.......
 

Maybe. Unless you were asking Russian Jews, who have come to the country in great numbers. Or Cubans. Or the very large number of immigrants who come because they are married to a US citizen (or the child of one) - who presumably would want an option that they came for love.

Then again, if you asked our former au pair why she's still in the country, she'd tell you it's the Malls. They don't have Malls like ours in France.

Club, should we kick her out? She's here for the Malls, and except for the Malls (and the movies), probably isn't overly excited about American culture, history, or principals.

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Are you trying to entice Spanky onto your side through use of capitalization? Pretty sneaky, sis.

ETA timely thingy from catching up on my reading -- I wonder what % of the 15% are also illegal aliens . . .

From a March 29 LA Times article. I got it through a service so I don't have a link.

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I thought the word "random" would imply not asking only Russian Jews or Cubans.

Though I would question whether economics was not also a significant factor even for many members of those groups.

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Is she hot?

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Don't distract Club from the central question - would he kick out my Mall loving former au pair from France who couldn't care less about our beloved principals, and, indeed, is prone to making fun of some of them? She is making a reasonable living, and her parents send money, too, so she's not a drain on The System.

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Yes.

But, taken.

I was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar, that much is true.
 

Great story -- thanks for the tip. Since the WSJ article isn't free online, here's a link to another, slightly more partisan, version: http://www.rawstory.com/news/2005/Ho...nlon_0103.html

I like how she "wondered" how a lifeguard and surfer could afford the multiple million dollar mansions and month-long stays at the Ritz Carlton while working part-time as a PR flack. Please. (This is from the WSJ article, which seems a bit less lurid than the above link.)

Interesting that she's the former State Department staffer who tried to cut off the NBC interview of Colin Powell a while back.

Also, she's actually kinda cute:

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-d...5680-2004May18

I was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar, that much is true.
 

Indeed. The waitress (or manicurist, accoring to your link) must have been way hot.

I was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar, that much is true.
 

The link you provided has the best quote form the WSJ article:

How do you get engaged to the person who said this to a reporter and not anticipate her completely killing you when you dump her?

But yeah, I'm a little sceptical - as is the WSJ, given the number of times in the story they point out nobody thinks she did anything wrong - about how it didn't occur to her to wonder about how he came up with all this money until after he called off the wedding.

The other lesson for us all: if you get divorced and then come into a lot of questionable cash, start throwing a bit of the money the way of your ex/kid, or expect to answer a lot of uncomfortable question in front of a judge at a child support hearing.

In other news...
 

You have just captured the very essence of political fundraising (in theory).

S_A_M

Interesting campaign tactic.......
 

As long as she's hot, she can stay. I may not be a racist or classist, but I am a hotist.

full faith and credit
 

Did I miss all mention of this here?

Mass. says marriage (incl. gay marriage) not available to non-residents whose states don't allow it.

Or is this result not controversial, and the correct one under the principles of full faith and credit?

full faith and credit
 

I'm wondering if it killed the booming wedding tourism industry in Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket or if it just means there's going to be a rush on summer homes that will be named primary residences soon.

Probably a little of both.

full faith and credit
 

Group homes will never be more popular.

(actually, I think anyone with a summer home probably already could get married--it's just the destination weddings that are out now)

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They are just going to have to get over it. If you have a problem with Hispanic culture then it is time to move to New Hampshire or Norway.

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if Michigan's arab population keeps growing will you all promise to stop posting Mohammed cartoons?

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2.

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Fringey, i would like you to stay and keep posting FWIW, but I may have lost my PB crown.

Anglo Culture = Superior Culture?
 

What confuses me is when people like Pat Buchanen talk about the superiority of Anglo culture. He has got be kidding. I believe that that the US is superior to other countrys but that is because of our underlying political economic philosophy.

Our philosophy of freedom and limited government is what makes the US successful. The fact that we try and achieve (not always successfuly, but at least try) to set up a system where everyone can make it if they work hard and have ability is what sets us apart. The idea that in this country that you go out and "make money" and not "get money" is why we do well.

But our culture? give me a break. Hot dogs and NASCAR? There is nothing special about American culture. America has not done well because of its Anglo culture, it has done well despite its Anglo culture. Anglo culture is elitest, boring, rigid, and lame.

The immigrants that come here, generally come here because they embrace our political economic philosophy. They are true Americans before they even get here. The problem is not only do they embrace our ideals, but they also embrace our culture.

Pat Buchanan and his supporters really have no clue to what makes this country great.

Interesting campaign tactic.......
 

Hank, they are talking about throwing ugly people out of the country. You are in even more imminent (can something be more imminent??) danger than I am. Perhaps you can find a Schindler-esque neighbor?

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fuck. my link to the prison-teacher photo is on my work computer:( :(

Anglo Culture = Superior Culture?
 

I think that when people like that talk about "our" culture, they mean white, or European, culture. Not hot dogs and Nascar, but Da Vinci and Beethoven.

I have a racist uncle with whom I have, unwillingly, had this discussion (he was drunk, I was a captive audience). He talked about the superiority of "our" culture to "black" culture, and "proved" it by talking about centuries of symphonies, painting, etc.* Not shockingly, this is not someone who thinks of American composers or painters; he would sooner spit on a Pollock than listen to a Glass (or, god forbid, a Mingus) composition. He is thinking of Renaissance art.

When Buchanan talks about the superiority of Anglo culture, he isn't really talking about much that is American. American culture (not Nascar and Hollywood, but real artistic work) is a wonderful, beautiful thing, but Buchanan wouldn't agree with that.



*I asked him what he knew about Shona sculpture and the polyrhthyms of West Africa, but that didn't seem to help.

Interesting campaign tactic.......
 

I'm not buying club's "border security" riff, but that does seem like a lot of immigrants for a country with a population of 300 million or so. No wonder there's a housing bubble.

eta: stp

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Do you tell him those questions are either/or?

Anglo Culture = Superior Culture?
 

My ancestry is English and my parents met at a sons and daughter of the American revolution event. I know what they mean by Anglo culture and I know it sucks. Yes there have been many good Anglo scientists, philosophers etc. But as for traditions, food, fashion, etc. Anglo culture sucks.

If you could only listen to Anglo American music or African American music for the rest of your life what would you pick? If you had the choice between spending the rest of your life in Florence or London which would you pick?

As a kid, a friend and I in Palm Springs would switch off on News Years between the Jewish country club's New Years Eve party (Tamarisk) and the WASP country club New Years Eve Party (Thunderbird). Take a wild guess at which one was more fun.

Anglo society is always very stratified based on blood and ancestry (in both England and New England and in the South). What is more unAmerican than that? Anglo culture tries to base everthing on ancestry and not merit. America has been successful because our political philosophy has to a great extent overcome that heinous tradition. If our founding fathers had followed their culture instead of their enlightened political philosophy you would need to prove your heritage before you could run for the Senate.

The USA is more successful than most other countrys because we have more of a meritocracy than most countrys. However, our Anglo culture has been fighting the whole idea of meritocracy from day one. That is why I believe that America is great because we have overcome a great many of our anglo traditions instead of embracing them.

Buchanan simply has it wrong. Our political philosophy derived from the enlightenment is what made us great, not our Anglo culture.

Anglo Culture = Superior Culture?
 

London, actually, but I'm not sure that comparison illustrates the point you're making.

Anglo Culture = Superior Culture?
 

Politics and economics are both parts of the belief system that makes up a culture. To say that American culture is hot dogs and NASCAR but not capitalism and democracy is as wrong as saying that capitalism and democracy are exclusive to Anglo culture.

Anglo Culture = Superior Culture?
 

"Hot Dogs" didn't exactly orginate here. Does the word "Frankfurter" ring a bell.

And car racing is very popular in Europe, although they are more concerned with Formula 500.

If you really wanted to point to culture points that are inherently American - pick baseball and turkey dinner.

Even Apple Pie is English.

Anglo Culture = Superior Culture?
 

I believe felching originated in Texas.

What's America Without Greed And Glamour?
 

C'mon. Baseball is just a dumbed-down form of cricket and the turkey dinner is a cruel testament to an evil genocide perpetrated by religious fanatics from England. Now green beer -- that's American.

What's America Without Greed And Glamour?
 

Are shaved pussies American? I think they must be. It's hard to imagine that a woman who didn't shave her armpits or legs would shave her muff.

Assuming I'm correct, I see some wisdom to Buchanan's view. Which is, in and of itself, quite scary.


(Arguably posted on the wrong board, but hey.)