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-   -   Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630)

Tyrone Slothrop 09-27-2004 08:23 PM

Reuters: Bush lies.
 
  • Many of President Bush's assertions about progress in Iraq -- from police training and reconstruction to preparations for January elections -- are in dispute, according to internal Pentagon documents, lawmakers and key congressional aides on Sunday.

For example, "[Bush] said nearly 100,000 "fully trained and equipped" Iraqi soldiers, police officers and other security personnel are already at work, and that would rise to 125,000 by the end of this year." However, "[t]he documents show that of the nearly 90,000 currently in the police force, only 8,169 have had the full eight-week academy training. Another 46,176 are listed as "untrained," and it will be July 2006 before the administration reaches its new goal of a 135,000-strong, fully trained police force."



Reuters

Hank Chinaski 09-27-2004 08:33 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
You are exactly what Sebby was talking about: the dumbest of dumb...the person who defends his party at any cost. Again, like an Italian family member, you don't care if Uncle Tony whacked his girlfriend. He's family, so he can do no wrong. Welcome to Dipshitville. Population: You.

Read this interview.

"Buckheit spent the last 20 years of his government career working on air quality issues, most recently as director of the Environmental Protection Agency's Air Enforcement Division. But in December, he made a difficult decision to retire from the EPA."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4759864/
Okay in his 20 years he can point to one time where the rule worked. He "had dozens" of others cases that would have been a fight. Is it not posssible that the efficiency and incentives mentioned in the article might be better?

Have you ever spoken to even one environmental compliance officer at a major company? they do not want to violate, they want to comply. violation is too expensive.

I ask you Coltrane, is it not possible that the old man you quote is locked in the wars of the past, and a dinosaur?

SlaveNoMore 09-27-2004 08:42 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Gattigap
I understand the diceyness of deploying, say, the Turks into Kurdish regions, notwithstanding the Pentagon's original plans to do so.

But I understand somewhat less your rationale that troops from these other countries are somehow fucking worthless. I suppose, though, it would explain your insistence that "we've got all we need, thanks," as we've run fresh out of "acceptable" countries.
Did you see the scene in Braveheart where Longshanks sends in the Irish troops and they end up turning around and helping Wallace?

You really want Syria's assistance in this one?

Gattigap 09-27-2004 08:52 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Did you see the scene in Braveheart where Longshanks sends in the Irish troops and they end up turning around and helping Wallace?

You really want Syria's assistance in this one?
Funny. I was about to make a similar comparison re: the Iraqi police force and national guard.

You don't want Eqypt or SA or Kuwait or UAE or anyone else this time 'round, eh?

sgtclub 09-27-2004 09:31 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
It used to be that our allies provided more than moral support, though I agree with you that standing up to be counted on a list is important, just as it's important to treasure the small things in life, and friendship is undoubtedly one of them. Truly precious, like the warm breezes of (say) Micronesia.

OK, here you've got me.
When, 1945. Because since then, they have been relying on the American dividend.

Say_hello_for_me 09-27-2004 09:50 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
When, 1945. Because since then, they have been relying on the American dividend.
You are mostly Right. The Right does not like subsidizing our friend's freedom (read: vacation lifestyles) with our nation's sons, dollars and daughters when they refuse to contribute to their own freedom in equal measure.

Skeks in the city 09-27-2004 09:59 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
You forget Kerry's "secret plan" to get more allies on board.
I suppose his plan may work, if it includes offering new allies exclusive rights to export crack and heroine into the US.

bilmore 09-27-2004 10:49 PM

Airplane Report
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Was on a plane yesterday. Fully packed. I think the airlines are trying to save money by not turning on the air until after takeoff. In any event it was hot and stuffy and wouldn't you know, I get stuck next to a fatty, which made the situation that much more intolerable. I'm still fuming this morning.
Shut up, jerk.

Spill your damned iced tea on me, will ya'? Like, I was any happier with the situation? "Here, sir, please sit next to this Young Republican. He says he'll put his pamphlets away . . . "

bilmore 09-27-2004 10:50 PM

Liberals want to ban your Bible.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If (if) Cat Stevens is a terrorist and should be excluded from the country for opining that Salman Rushdie should be killed for blaspheming, what does that mean that Oklahoma Senate candidate Dr. Tom Cobourn, who opines that doctors who perform (legal) abortions should be killed?
Depends on the next vote, doesn't it?

Adder 09-27-2004 10:50 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I'm amused by people who live their lives like tomorrow is promised to them. I'll take that cash now. I'll deal with the problems of 40 years from now 40 years from now.
Just when you risk making sense, you have to revert to being insufferably selfish.

bilmore 09-27-2004 10:51 PM

Liberals want to ban your Bible.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
If Tom Cobourn gave money that was funneled to people who bomb abortion clinics, deporting him would be fine with me. Hell, he and Cat probably take a lot of the same positions.
There's a big difference between pro-life and pro-death. Be more exact.

Adder 09-27-2004 11:00 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Did he? You suffer from the same dream that Clinton did.
I do love how people manage to conclude that because something didn't work, it shouldn't have been tried.

sgtclub 09-27-2004 11:04 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Adder
I do love how people manage to conclude that because something didn't work, it shouldn't have been tried.
Are you joking? Many people thought this at the time, including those that killed Rabin.

Skeks in the city 09-27-2004 11:13 PM

Airplane Report
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Was on a plane yesterday. Fully packed. I think the airlines are trying to save money by not turning on the air until after takeoff. In any event it was hot and stuffy and wouldn't you know, I get stuck next to a fatty, which made the situation that much more intolerable. I'm still fuming this morning.
Was Bilmore still in costume on the way out of SF?

http://www.sanfranciscoleather.com/2...olsom04_4a.jpg

bilmore 09-27-2004 11:13 PM

Liberals want to ban your Bible.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Whoa, we're talking 70s AM radio here. It ain't like Dylan or Neil Young decided to become monks in nepal or something...

I understand the need to speak prositively of the dead or the religiously insane, but when I hear people on VH1 say things like "Jim Croce's loss cannot be understated" or "Chapin's death left a chasm in modern music", its hard for me not to think "Whaaaa?" "Peace Train" is a fine and dandy little ditty, but its not Cole Fucking Porter.
Migawd, you are truly a hotair fuckin' thompson wannabe. Screw you, and maybe shut up when you know nothing.

It IS exactly like Neil decided to be a fuckin' islamisict. You didn't grow up playing guitar and singing and leading to 200 kids with Cat's songs didja?

Stop and think - maybe other people had different experiences.

SlaveNoMore 09-27-2004 11:13 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Adder
I do love how people manage to conclude that because something didn't work, it shouldn't have been tried.
Nice summary of Kerry's new Iraq stance.

Adder 09-27-2004 11:18 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
The quote was taken out of context. He essentially said that this is a different type of war, one we will not "win" in the sense that we did when Germany and Japan surrendered or the Wall came tumbling down, because we are not at war with nation states capable of surrender.
Wait!! You mean he was saying that maybe it isn't really a "war" in the classical sense??? Why does that sound familiar??

bilmore 09-27-2004 11:24 PM

Liberals want to ban your Bible.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield When i have a son, I plan to listen to Cats in the Cradle while I rock him to bed. Then I'll coolly step out onto the patio and shoot myself for the betterment of humanity.
I'll raise him for you. Betterment is a good thing.

bilmore 09-27-2004 11:24 PM

Liberals want to ban your Bible.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Was he really talented, or just a one-hit wonder? I won't pretend to know.
Another fucking philistine.

Adder 09-27-2004 11:25 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore


Russia? Ha. Besides, look how their help in WW II turned out.

Winning sucks, doesn't it?

SlaveNoMore 09-27-2004 11:29 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Adder
Winning [wars] sucks, doesn't it?
Are you asking me personally, or are you looking for Noam Chomsky Hate America-type answer?

Adder 09-27-2004 11:29 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
We got some Arab troops last time, and a lot more money. Plus, a truly international coalition (i.e., one not perceived as a front for us) would surely have caused less of a backlash against us there.

eta: What Gatti said.
Shit. All they had to do was not say, "Fuck you, we are doing this if you like it or not so you better sign up" and they would have had a far more credible coalition.

Atticus Grinch 09-27-2004 11:30 PM

You Get Out What You Put In
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Here is wisdom... This country will fall on its fucking ass if someone doesn't remind people that everything is a bargain and you get what you pay for.
Major premise: you get what you pay for.

Minor premise: teachers and government workers are lazy, ineffectual, and useless.

Aren't you the guy who makes fun of people who shop at Joseph Bank? You're buying from Joseph Bank and then complaining about the quality, assjack.

I propose that to improve the quality of our government, we should immediately raise all government salaries to a level that could support Sebby's lifestyle, so we'll have quality people like him competing to teach third grade.

bilmore 09-27-2004 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Things must be grim indeed if I'm looking to Arnaud de Borchgrave:
Thanks, Ty. The Spanish commentary has been sorely absent for some time. I feel positively refreshed catching up. What color white do they really favor for flags, anyway?

Adder 09-27-2004 11:42 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
These are probably not worth responding to, but what the hell.

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
From Newsmax:
[list]Among the more egregious of the tragicomic whoppers noted:


Kerry now claims the "most important task" is to win the "war on terrorism." Yet Kerry, speaking to his pets at the New York Times in March, refused to call the war on terror a war, RNC recalled.
Kerry then: "The final victory in the war on terror depends on a victory in the war of ideas, much more than the war on the battlefield. And the war - not the war, I don’t want to use that terminology."
Outside of Afghanistan, it isn't a war in any sense other than that it will take a prolonged, concerted effort. It is an intelligence/law enforcement action. "War on terrorism" is nothing more than shorthand, which is how Kerry used it in the first quote above.



Quote:

Kerry now claims Iraq was a "diversion from" the war on terror. On Dec. 15 he said: "Iraq may not be the war on terror itself, but it is critical to the outcome of the war on terror."
You mean that at one point, he believed that the Administration wasn't lying to him, and therefore over estimated the risk that Saddam posed? Yeah, well. So did a lot of people.


Quote:

Kerry now claims Saddam Hussein's evil was not enough to justify war. Here's what he said in a speech July 29, 2002:
"I agree completely with this administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq – Saddam Hussein is a renegade and outlaw who turned his back on the tough conditions of his surrender put in place by the United Nations in 1991."
This statement in no way implies that Saddam's "evil" was not enough to justify war. Great reporting they have over there are Newsmax.



Quote:

Kerry now claims Saddam’s "downfall ... has left America less secure."
It quite obviously has.

Quote:

Oopsy: Here's his anti-Dean, anti-Saddam stand in December 2003, according to Newsday:
"Those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe we are not safer with his capture, don’t have the judgment to be president or the credibility to be elected president."
These two statement are not inconsistent. Iraq and the world are clearly better off. And we are arguably safer with a captured rather than free Sadam. Neither of these means that an unstable Iraq and even more pissed off Arabs don't make us less secure.


Quote:

Kerry now claims the decision to go into Iraq was a "colossal" failure. Yet on Aug. 9, Kerry said that had he known then what he knew now, he would still have voted for the use-of-force resolution, according to CNN:
"Yes, I would have voted for the authority. I believe it's the right authority for a president to have. But I would have used that authority, as I have said throughout this campaign, effectively."
Leaving aside how a decision could be a collosal failure (quality journalism, to be sure), again, these are not inconsistent. Our execution in Iraq has been poor to say the least. That is not to say that it could not have been done effectively (i.e. not unilaterally).

Quote:

Kerry now claims Saddam was not a "threat to our security." Here's what he said in January 2003, according to the L.A. Times: "If you don't believe ... Saddam Hussein is a threat with nuclear weapons, then you shouldn't vote for me."
Again, not inconsistent. Notice the major qualifier on the second statement (hint: no "nucular" weapons)

Quote:

Kerry now claims Saddam's "capability to acquire weapons" was not reason enough for war. Yet according to the Congressional Record of Oct. 9, 2002, he called those who would leave the Iraqi dictator alone "naive to the point of grave danger."
And so on and so forth.
Again, there is the little intervening matter of the quality of our intelligence/veractity of the administration.

SlaveNoMore 09-27-2004 11:50 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Adder
It quite obviously has.
Really? It isn't that obvious to me. Or millions of other Americans who haven't seen a successful terrorist mission over here in the last 3 years.

As a matter of fact, I love it every time Kerry or one of his "puppets" says something like "Iraq is now a magnet for terrorists", as if this is a bad thing.

Far, far better for our military to kill them over there than to deal with them over here.

bilmore 09-27-2004 11:51 PM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Adder
Outside of Afghanistan, it isn't a war in any sense other than that it will take a prolonged, concerted effort. It is an intelligence/law enforcement action. "War on terrorism" is nothing more than shorthand, which is how Kerry used it in the first quote above.
You are a naive little asshole. It is a war. It is WWIV. Pay attention, or slowly concede your life. Those people at Pearl Harbor could have been polite, too, but what woud it have gained for them?

Adder 09-28-2004 12:00 AM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Really? It isn't that obvious to me. Or millions of other Americans who haven't seen a successful terrorist mission over here in the last 3 years.
Invading Iraq prevented terrorist attacks even before we invaded? Interesting.

And really, honestly, you think invading Iraq has prevented terrorist attacks? Exactly how?

And you do know that during that period, there have been numerous successful terrorist attacks against other nations, right?

And that in the last fifteen years (at least), there have been exactly two successful attacks by foriegn terrorists in the U.S.? What possible reason is there to conclude that three years without an attack says anything at all about our ability to prevent attacks? (btw.. we are both obviously leaving the anthrax attacks out of this discussion)


Quote:



Far, far better for our military to kill them over there than to deal with them over here.
I think that this is naive, and short sighted, as hell.

Shape Shifter 09-28-2004 12:03 AM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
You are a naive little asshole. It is a war. It is WWIV. Pay attention, or slowly concede your life. Those people at Pearl Harbor could have been polite, too, but what woud it have gained for them?
I must not have been paying attention. What happened to WWIII?

Adder 09-28-2004 12:04 AM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
You are a naive little asshole. It is a war. It is WWIV. Pay attention, or slowly concede your life. Those people at Pearl Harbor could have been polite, too, but what woud it have gained for them?
Um... i am assuming you are being facetious.

If you want to argue that it is a "war" of ideas, cultures, idealogies, values, etc., I wouldn't necessarily disagree. But a shootin' war it ain't. And shooting doesn't help much on the idea/cultute/idealogy/values front.

bilmore 09-28-2004 12:04 AM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I must not have been paying attention. What happened to WWIII?
Fucking pay attention. Then come back and bitch. Sheesh.

Read. That's all I can say.

bilmore 09-28-2004 12:05 AM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Adder
Um... i am assuming you are being facetious.
I know. That's why we still can't actually communicate.

Adder 09-28-2004 12:09 AM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
I know. That's why we still can't actually communicate.
So, hypothetically speaking, do you think we can kill all of the Muslims and just be done with the problem?

Tyrone Slothrop 09-28-2004 12:11 AM

Liberals want to ban your Bible.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Another fucking philistine.
My sex life is none of your business, you big buttinski.

bilmore 09-28-2004 12:12 AM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Adder
So, hypothetically speaking, do you think we can kill all of the Muslims and just be done with the problem?
Mom's a Muslim. Take that as you will, you racist jerk.

No, I don't. I draw a line between Muslim and Islamicist.

Do you?

(Hi! Long time, and all that . . . )

SlaveNoMore 09-28-2004 12:13 AM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Adder
Invading Iraq prevented terrorist attacks even before we invaded? Interesting.
No, that would have been the Afghanistan invasion which half your camp likes to remember or forget, depending on the context

Quote:

And really, honestly, you think invading Iraq has prevented terrorist attacks? Exactly how?
So far, the proof is in the pudding. Why don't you tell me how it hasn't?

Quote:

And you do know that during that period, there have been numerous successful terrorist attacks against other nations, right?
There have successful attacks in Israel every year as long as you have been alive. Have these made you feel any less safe here? I thought we talking about homeland security.

Quote:

And that in the last fifteen years (at least), there have been exactly two successful attacks by foriegn terrorists in the U.S.?
Well, we did absolutely nothing after WTC 1 back on Clinton's watch - you see how successful that turned out. Perhaps a new strategy was warranted.

Quote:

What possible reason is there to conclude that three years without an attack says anything at all about our ability to prevent attacks? (btw.. we are both obviously leaving the anthrax attacks out of this discussion)
Perhaps a lot - perhaps nothing. But again, I remind you, sitting by idly did nothing but let them sow the seeds for bigger ideas.

Quote:

I think that this is naive, and short sighted, as hell.
So was letting Islamicist aggression go on unchecked since WTC 1.

Tyrone Slothrop 09-28-2004 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Thanks, Ty. The Spanish commentary has been sorely absent for some time. I feel positively refreshed catching up. What color white do they really favor for flags, anyway?
I would have thought "Arnaud de Borchgrave" was a French name. Or Korean. Live and learn.

bilmore 09-28-2004 12:14 AM

Liberals want to ban your Bible.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
My sex life is none of your business, you big buttinski.
I should know better than to make fun of philistine hobbies . . . .

Adder 09-28-2004 12:17 AM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore

No, I don't. I draw a line between Muslim and Islamicist.
Yes and no. But then again, I really would prefer not to kill any of them.

Shape Shifter 09-28-2004 12:17 AM

Bill Kristol must read my rants
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Fucking pay attention. Then come back and bitch. Sheesh.

Read. That's all I can say.
I've been reading. All I've learned is that Coalition of the Willing member Marshall Islands' economy, like that of Micronesia (and Palau and the Solomon Islands, for that matter), depends heavily* on crafts made from shells, wood, and pearls. I'm really trying to read between the lines here, and figure out why we'd need so many crafts in Iraq. To replaceitems looted from the museums?

And I still haven't figured out WWIII.

*Of course, all of their economies depend most heavily on US assistance. I wonder if that has anything to do with their Willingness.


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