al-Zarqawi Killed?
 

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

Was Fred Fisher a communist?

Was John Henry Faulk a communist?

I have no problem with communists lives being destroyed. If they want the violent overthrow of the U.S. government I have no problem with people boycotting them or refusing to hire them.

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

Whether there is or not, who cares? Many of the people wose lives were destroyed by McCarthy were members of organizations that professed admiration for some of the ideals of communism in the 20s and 30s.

What made McCarthy so inherently evil, and what makes Coulter just as evil, is the fact that what people may have thought or flirted with in their youth does not make them enemies of America. Demonizing people for exercising their First Amendment rights does make McCarthy and Coulter enemies of America.

After a little digging it turns out that Herbert Brownell, Jr., While the Attorney General, referred to the Lawyers Guild, "the legal bulwark of the Communist Party".

Later KGB documents revealed that the guild had received money from the Soviets. Fred Fischer was a member of that organization.

McCarthy pointed out that Fischer was a member of an organiztion that had communist sympathies. What is worng with that? What people have been upset if McCarthy had revealed that Fischer was part of an organization that had Nazi sympathies. I doubt it.

Ann Coulter is usually over the top, but is she right about this. Did he not falsley accuse anyone of being a communist?

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

Correct me if I am wrong here, but if they had just said that they had been members of these organizations but now see the errors in their ways, and disavow the communist party it would have been no problem.

The problem was these people would not admit to being members or disavoe the communist party. They were never jailed or had their rights infringed. They just were not given jobs by studios who did not want to hire communists or communists sympathizers.

And remember, these were people that were part of an organization that was receiving money from a foreign power and was promoting the violent overthrow the U.S. Government and insituting a dictatorship.

Again, if this had happened to Nazis or Nazi sympathysers I don't think there would have ever been a problem.

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

This may be one of the dumbest statement ever made on this board. So if I Demonize Nazi's for excersizing their first amendment rights, then I am unamerican?

They have right to express their opinions and I have a right to have mine. To demonize a communist or Nazi or anyone else who wants to destroy the US Constitution is not unAmerican, it is patriotic.

And there is no place in the constitution where is says that I have to hire someone who is a communist or have to buy products from a communist, let alone says I can't critisize openly somone who holds ideas different form mine.

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

Then, presumably, you should have no trouble with anyone who advocates destroying the life of a social conservative, who would overthrow our democratic principles? You would agree that it would be okay to refuse to hire such people, or boycotting their businesses?

Taking this one step farther, would it be alright for Barbara Boxer to march Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, etc. in front of a congressional committee, digging up any dirt that could be found on them, prying into their private lives and exposing their personal weaknesses and foibles to public ridicule?

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

If any of these people proposed the violent overthrow of the United State government then I would have no problem with congress investigating them. As long as none of them were jailed for their political beliefs. And if they refused to answer the questions I would have no problem with people not hiring them. However, if they received funds from a foreigh government to spy on the United States or to help organize a violent revolution I hope they would be executed.

In addition, if one of those people took an affirmative step towards instituting the violent overthrow of the US government then I hope they would be jailed.

I know that people boycott Dominoes Pizza and Blockbuster because the owenrs are social conservatives. I have no problem with that. Do you?

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

You are wrong here. The HUAC and MCCarthy had no right to compel these people to disavow anything or acknowledge "the error of their ways." You sound like Chairman Mao in the days of the Cultural Revolution. You are overlokking the fact that these people had a right to think or feel whatever they chose.

This is bullshit. Most of the people who were brought before the committee had never advocated the violent overthrow of the government.

BY this standard, W's father, and the rest of the Carlyle group should be destroyed and subject to public disgrace and opprobrium. One of the Carlyle Group's largest clients is the Saud family and their various corporate investment vehicles. They are a foreign power practicing Wahabbism, a form of Islam that, according to some (including many on this board) advocates the violent overthrow of the United States government.

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

Suggesting that anyone who believes in Communist ideas is committing treason is attempting to destroy the Constitution. There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and suggesting that they are enemies of the state, solely on the basis of their political beliefs, no matter how unpopular.

So, I guess yeah, you are Unamerican.

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

They didn't have to say anything. And if they did not they were not throw in jail, they were merely ostracized. They could take the 5th, but then citizens in this country could exercise their rights by no associating with them. Everyone was excercising their rights.

There is nothing wrong with a committee looking into an organization run by a foreign power that promotes the violent overthrow of the United States. That was the communist party. You can be a member of the communist party, but if people find out don't expect them to treat you like a brother. The government may not be able to arrest you but that does not mean everyone else needs to be nice to you.


The communists party's goal was a violent overthrow of the US government. Socialists - no. But socialists were not being brought before the committee. Communists were. The communists party was run by Moscow and it direct intention was to overthrow the US government by violent means.

Maybe you think they should be but they are not. U.S. citizens can abhore and ostracize whomever they want. You are free to say anything you want, and if I don't like your beliefs, especially if you want to overthrow the US government by violent means, then I can choose to ostracize you. I choose to abhore Nazis, Communists and former members of the KKK. Anybody who subscribes to any of these heinous ideologies I am not going to do anything to assist them in any way.

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

Boy you are slow. I did not say they were committing treason by being a member of the communist party. However, if they did take funds from the Soviet Union to spy on the United States, which almost the entire leadership of the communist party did, or if I take any affirmative steps to overthrow the government, then yes that is treason.

You can be a part of a group that wants to overthrow the government, just like you can talk about murdering someone. Nothing illegal. But the minute you go out and attempt to murder someone, or attempt the violent overthrow of the US government, then that is a crime.

Someone who wants to overthrow the US government, or end our democracy is an enemy of the state. You make it sound like being a communist is like being a member of the Green party or a socialist party. The goal of communism is to end democracy. There is a huge difference.

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

Another one of the more stupid statements. That other one was a doozy - "Demonizing people for exercising their First Amendment rights does make McCarthy and Coulter enemies of America." (and I don't see you trying to defend it) but this one is up there. Communists by definition want to tear up teh consitution. Ever hear of the dictatorship of the proletariate?

If you are communist you are against the constitution. You do get that correct?

Would anyone on this board care if the US Congresss did an investigation into Neo-Nazis and other racist parties in the United States?

What about an investigation as to whether members of Neo-Nazi groups were working in the United States government?

What if they held hearings and interviewed the leaders about their activities?

If a lawyer defending ones of these Neo - Nazis was shown to be member of a Neo-Nazi party would people consider digging up such information as "smear tactics"?

And what if it turned out that some Hollywood writers, directors and producers may have been members of or were currently members of Neo-Nazi parties?

Would anyone have a problem with Congress investigating that?

If there was a suspicion considering whether a Hollywood writer producer or director was either a current or former member of a neo-nazi party and they refused to answer whether they were a current or former member of a Neo Nazi organization would anyone care if the studios decided not to hire them?

Would it be out of line for a studio to ask before they hire someone that they state that they are not, nor have ever been a member of a Neo Nazi group, and if they had been to disavow that membership?

Really. Who would have a problem with that?

Watch Out for the Flying Pigs
 

I agree with this, and I think some Democrats have proposed increasing the size of the armed forces. If this is your beef, your problem is with Bush, who stubbornly pretends that his commanders don't want or need more troops*, and Rumsfeld, who is more interested in transforming the military than he is in winning the war it's actually fighting right now.

* Or maybe Bush truly believes this, which would be even scarier.

I don't object to spending money per se, and I would even support a tax increase to pay for it. But we've wasted a lot of money there. Wasting more won't help.

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

No one said Fred Fisher was a communist. I think Not Bob said he was a member of a group that also received support (under the table, I assume) from the USSR.

If I'm a member of the Book of the Month Club, and the PRC sends it money without my knowledge, that does not make me a Chinese spy.

Watch Out for the Flying Pigs
 

You asked me for criticisms I could respect. Just because I respect it does not mean I agree with it.


Again, it is a criticism I respect. Whining about "Bush lying" I don't respect.

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

McCarthy simply pointed out an organization that Mr. Fisher was a member of. This organization was pretty much the communist partys legal arm. What is wrong with that? The main goal of the book of the month club is not to promote communism, nor is its main objective to protect communists. Anyone that was a member of the Lawyers Guild knew what the organization was about. To compare it to the book of the month club is ridiculous.

Pointing out that someone was a member of an organization is not a character assassination. It is just pointing out facts.

BTW: I was the one who pointed out that it was on the payroll of the communists.

I was under the impression that people were wrongly accussed of being communists during the McCarthy era. As a student I was told that it was similar to the Salem Witch trials because people were wrongfullly accused and lives were ruined. The people in Salem were not witches and the people accused by McCarthy were not communists.

It is now my understanding that no one was wrongfully accused. It was simply exposed as to who were members of the communist party.

If someone was falsly accused of being a communist or former communist and was ostracized then that would be wrong. But it is now my understanding that did not happen.

If someone had been a member of the communist party but stated that they had made a mistake but were still ostracized that would be wrong. It also my understanding this did not happen.

But if someone had been or currently was a member, and they refused to say that was a mistake, and they couldn't find work in Hollywood. That is a good thing. Or if someone refused to critisize the communist party and couldn't get a job in Hollywood, what is wrong with that?

Did McCarthy finger anyone that wasn't a communist?

Watch Out for the Flying Pigs
 

Actually, that's not what I asked you. Never mind, though.

You and bilmore are about the only two people I know who say, "he lied, happens all the time, get over it." It would be refreshing to see Republicans actually say this, though.

Sooner or later, there will be a reckoning over what the Bush Administration did before the war. Trying to suppress the issue can only work so long.

Are you paying attention? In response to your original post on this, Not Bob said:

• How about Fred Fisher, the Hale & Dorr lawyer who was accused by McCarthy of being a communist because he volunteered for the National Lawyers Guild?

According to Not Bob -- and I'll confess that he seems to know more about this than I do -- Fred Fisher was "accused by McCarthy of being a communist" when in fact all he had done was volunteer for an organization that also received Soviet support.

And, BTW, I spent a day in law school as a legal observer at an abortion clinic wearing a National Lawyers Guild armband. I did not then, and do not now, know anything about the group or their purported communist ties. So don't try to convince me that Fisher's volunteering made him a communist.

Watch Out for the Flying Pigs
 

Wow. We agree.

Oh, wait - you mean Iraq's infrastructure, don't you?

Watch Out for the Flying Pigs
 

Can you not make your philosophical argument without resort to misquoting? Is it that weak?

He didn't lie. He used the available facts and analyses that were helpful to his case. He sold his case.

Watch Out for the Flying Pigs
 

You asked me what should the Democrats be saying. I just pointed out some possible arguments.


Again - you got it wrong. I don't think Bush lied (and you have said you don't think he lied either). I think this is widely known but many Dems are intentionally lying about the lie: Pathetic. In addition, I don't think it would really matter if he did lie; so the Democrats are making up a problem that is not real, and even if it were real it would't really be a problem. That is what makes the whole thing totally pathetic.

The lawyers guild was a communist group. As I said the attorney general had said it was the legal arm of the communist party. The lawyers guild was a communist organization for lawyers. It was later discovered that its leaders were paid agents of the soviet union and that it received money from the Soviet Union. Why else would Stalin give money to the Lawyers Guild, because it was an altruist lawyers group? Fred Fisher was a member of an organization receiving funds from the biggest mass murderer in history. You make it sound like he joined the Rotary Club.

Really? You wore their arm band and new nothing about it. Unlike you, most people check out organizations that they affiliate themselves with. Fisher was also a member of the Lawyers Guild. He did not just volunteer. When someone becomes a member of an organization generally they ascertain the organizations goals and mission. Following your logic someone could join the KKK and not know it had racist tendencies. Don't you think it safe to assume a member of the KKK is a racist. Or a member of the Federalist society is generally a strict constructionist. Would it be slander to point out that someone had been a member of the Federalist society?

McCarthy did not accuse Fisher of being a communist. He accused Fisher of being a member of the Lawyers Guild which the attorney general has labeled the legal arm of the communist party. All of those things he said were true.

Where is the injustice?
 

Just to clear this up in the hearings McCarthy has said that there were communists in government service. Welch laughed at this idea and said:

"May I add my small voice, sir, and say whenever you know about a subversive or a Communist spy, please hurry. Will you remember those words."

In other words if you know about communists please point them out because I don't believe you know of any.

To which McCarthy replied:

"since Mr. Welch has such terror and such a great desire to know where anyone is located who may be serving the Communist cause....we should just call to your attention that your Mr. Fischer, who is still in your law firm today, whom you asked to have down here looking over the secret and classified material, is a member of an organization, not named by me but named by the Attorney General, I quote this verbatim, "as the legal bulwark of the Communist Party.' He belonged to that for a sizable number of years, according to his own admission, and he belonged to it long after it had been exposed as the legal arm of the Communist Party."

Now where is the smear here? From what I understand all this stuff is true. Where is the grave injustice?

Is this true: Ann Coulter claims.....
 

Yes, I recall that.

No (Republican) and no (Texan). That's why I listed them. Seriously, you should read the Nizer book (I just finished it -- saw it in a used bookstore on vacation, and since I am always looking for slick trial lawyer techniques to assist me in denying compensation to the injured, I grabbed it). I'd be happy to send it to you.

But let's assume that you run a law firm in 1955. You find out that one of your 45 year old partners contributed to a fund set up for the legal fees of the Scottsboro Boys when he was in law school in the 1930s. It turns out that the fund was administered by the CPUSA (who liked to make propaganda points against the capitalists by using lynchings and the like to make a point). Does he get fired? Or the bookkeeper who, in the depths of the Great Depression, thought that communism might work?

These are the type of people that lost their jobs, spouses, etc. during this time. People who had made the mistake of signing the wrong petition, attending the wrong rally, or working for Henry Wallace. It wasn't like most of them were ever communists, and that the ones who were actually in the party were still involved after the war.

How do you leap from the fact that Fred Fisher volunteered for the National Lawyers Guild to this (even assuming that the NLG received funds from the CP)? Seriously?

Cite, please. For any of the above. According to Wikipedia (see below), the AG accused the NLG of being a front, but the DoJ later rescinded the designation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army-McCarthy_Hearings

• In 1953, the Attorney General of the United States proposed to designate the organization as subversive. His proposal was made under revised regulations, promulgated under Executive Order 10450 to comply with Anti-Fascist Committee, establishing a notice and hearing procedure prior to such designation of an organization. 18 Fed. Reg. 2619; see 1954 Annual Report of the Attorney General, p. 14. The Guild brought an action in the District Court for the District of Columbia attacking the Executive Order and the procedures. A summary judgment in favor of the Attorney General because of failure to exhaust administrative remedies was sustained on appeal and this Court denied certiorari, National Lawyers Guild v. Brownell, 96 U.S. App. D.C. 252, 225 F.2d 552, cert. denied, 351 U.S. 927. After a Hearing Officer determined that certain interrogatories propounded to the Guild should be answered, the Guild brought another action in the District Court, National Lawyers Guild v. Rogers, Civil Action No. 1738-58, filed July 2, 1958. On September 11, 1958, the Attorney General rescinded the proposal to designate the Guild. 1958 Annual Report of the Attorney General, p. 251. On September 12, 1958, the complaint was dismissed as moot at the instance of the Attorney General, who filed a motion reciting the rescission and stating that the Attorney General had "concluded that the evidence that would now be available at a hearing on the merits of the proposed designation fails to meet the strict standards of proof which guide the determination of proceedings of this character." The present federal statutes provide that the Subversive Activities Control Board may not designate an organization as a Communist front without first according the organization the procedural safeguards of notice and hearing. Subversive Activities Control Act of 1950, 13, 64 Stat. 998, 50 U.S.C. 792 (1958 ed.

Spank, I think you should stand down here.

Picture parallel universe where it's not communism that's bad- say being anti-homo was bad. The government is trying to root out all anti-homo people.

Now say you belonged to the Boy Scouts as a teen. You can belong to the Boy Scouts for many reasons. Membership does not equal being anti-gay. Should you be excluded from government service because you liked to go camping?

Lots of these guys belonged to things that were not equivalent to be active members of a party trying to harm the US, and McCarthy outed them to build power.

And outing Fisher was just vile. He was outed to beat down Welch, and it seemed like the fact that a career might well be ruined was of no moment to McCarthy. (Spank you do realize how this outing turned out- and why Bob read the book to improve his advocacy don't you?)

If your point is that McCartny never lied about anyone being something (Former member of guild) maybe you're right. But the implication that guild membership equals active communist doesn't hold.

Dissent.

Remember, this all happened long ago and far away, in a time when communism wasn't just a whacko fringe party with bad hair and unemployed people wanting to share more. Communism represented the very worst of Russia and Co., the only real huge and viable threats to this country that we've ever actually faced. (Well, beyond disco.) This wasn't a witchhunt to ferret out lefties - this was a fight against an active and ongoing and well-financed attempt at hostile spying on the USA. People had real fears of annihilation. Paranoid? Maybe. But, with at least a tinge of realism? Yeah. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you, and they were.

Speaking of this in today's context is misleading at best. Look at it more like, we've found these people who have been contributing to Zarqawi. Personally, I'm not concerned at that point about their right to free speech and assembly. They're helping an org which is actively looking to kill me. A defense of, they do such nice work in Jordanian daycare centers, doesn't go far in changing my outlook.

Say last week I gave money to an organization that says it rebuilds orphanages. It turns out it really buys bombs. You think I should be branded a terrorist and ran out of any public positions?

Shut down the organization, sure. If someone gives money and notes in the memo line that want the money used to buy bombs, not orpanages, pick him up too.

But not every hypo donor is a bad guy B.

And the lies and excesses and abuses of McCarthy (how many people did he have on his list? which list? did he ever give any of those lists to J. Edgar Hoover?) provided aid and comfort to those who were hostile to us. Nixon was right about Hiss, and the FBI was right about the Rosenbergs, but that doesn't mean that McCarthy was right about Dean Acheson, George Marshall, or Harry Truman.

My last comment on McCarthy, I promise.

I'm not trying to defend McCarthy - he was truly vile - I'm just sayin' this discussion needs to take place in the proper context.

2. But I'll still never root for them commie bastard Detroit Red Wings.

I'm more concerned re. Ty's admission he worked for the National Lawyer's Guild. Who promoted Slothrop? I think the people of Lawtalkers deserve to know who made this man. with admitted ties to communist front groups, a moderator?

No, keep it up. Seriously. I'm not as up to date on McCarthy stuff, and don't have the time to do research to rebut Spanky's counter-intuitive assertion that no, actually, now that I think about it, McCarthy probably was an American hero.

You should read the Nizer book and the Coulter book. In that order. They're not that long, and they're both entertaining, in a weird sort of way, and there is really no contradiction between them. Just coverage of different facets, all of which you should have if you want to know about this.

I may well do that. Soon as I can figure out which of Amazon, the local Border's, or the local library I'm most comfortable having the knowledge that I would possess anything written by Coulter.

Half-Priced Books. Pay cash.