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-   -   Meet your new thread, same as the old thread. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=781)

fair and balanced 06-06-2007 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
In my opionion, there wasn't much of a question.

But I still thought the whole investigation, and process, and the impeachment, was a horrible thing for the Country.
.
What was even more horrible for our country and our profession was that we had a President, who was also a lawyer, who perjured himself and sought to obstruct justice before a Federal judge. How sad. Hank, do they do teach ethics at Yale?

Southern Patriot 06-06-2007 05:59 PM

Southern Charm
 
Quote:

Originally posted by fair and balanced
What was even more horrible for our country and our profession was that we had a President, who was also a lawyer, who perjured himself and sought to obstruct justice before a Federal judge. How sad. Hank, do they do teach ethics at Yale?
Yankees and ethics! Pshaw.

To imagine that our nation's highest law enforcement official would perjure himself, or engage in wanton conflicts of interest, or seek political advantage in the administration of justice! Back home, we'd apply generous amounts of "justice" to anyone who behaved like this.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-06-2007 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
For Libby, I really have no idea if he's guilty....
He was prosecuted by a U.S. Attorney (appointed by George W. Bush), convicted by a jury, and sentenced by a federal judge (also appointed by George W. Bush) who said that the evidence of his guilt was "overwhelming." Have you not been paying attention, or were you waiting for something more before you make up your mind? If so, what? A confession?

Hank Chinaski 06-06-2007 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
He was prosecuted by a U.S. Attorney (appointed by George W. Bush), convicted by a jury, and sentenced by a federal judge (also appointed by George W. Bush) who said that the evidence of his guilt was "overwhelming." Have you not been paying attention, or were you waiting for something more before you make up your mind? If so, what? A confession?
but if an appeals court overturns all that it could still be horribly biased misuse of the Judicial system, right?

Raggedy Ann Coulter 06-06-2007 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fair and balanced
What was even more horrible for our country and our profession was that we had a President, who was also a lawyer, who perjured himself and sought to obstruct justice before a Federal judge. How sad. Hank, do they do teach ethics at Yale?
One could have easily said the same thing about the esteemed junior Senator from New York (nee co-POTUS), except Ken Starr was too much of a pussy to indict her.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-06-2007 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
but if an appeals court overturns all that it could still be horribly biased misuse of the Judicial system, right?
Yes. There's a presumption, but it's rebuttable.

I can imagine that S_A_M doesn't like to form a view as to whether anyone convicted of a crime is actually guilty, and that he is merely applying that agnosticism here. But I caught a whiff of Creeping Broderism, and the notion that since you have lefties saying he's guilty and conservatives protesting his innocence, the truth should be somewhere in the middle.

Gattigap 06-06-2007 07:45 PM

Those crazy kids on Facebook.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
The Ron Paul lunatics are methodically spamming every poll on the internet.

In a way, it's impressive how organized they appear to be.
National Journal's ranking's of the GOP hopefuls, via Wonkette:

http://wonkette.com/assets/resources...06/aronnat.jpg

Secret_Agent_Man 06-07-2007 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
He was prosecuted by a U.S. Attorney (appointed by George W. Bush), convicted by a jury, and sentenced by a federal judge (also appointed by George W. Bush) who said that the evidence of his guilt was "overwhelming." Have you not been paying attention, or were you waiting for something more before you make up your mind? If so, what? A confession?
(a) I wasn't looking for a debate. just making an observation.

(b) I haven't been waiting for anything more, or looking to make up my mind, because I don't really, honestly care. (So, I guess that counts as not paying attention.)

(c) Those things you said make it more likely that he was guilty than if they had not happened (especially the judge's view). That said, I have enough training and experience with our system not to think that a jury verdict (either way) necessarily has much to do with the truth.

S_A_M

Secret_Agent_Man 06-07-2007 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Yes. There's a presumption, but it's rebuttable.

I can imagine that S_A_M doesn't like to form a view as to whether anyone convicted of a crime is actually guilty, and that he is merely applying that agnosticism here. But I caught a whiff of Creeping Broderism, and the notion that since you have lefties saying he's guilty and conservatives protesting his innocence, the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
(a) No, that's surely not it.

(b) No, that's not it. I truly don't care too much, and I find it sort of odd that people do.

I was happy when it was hurting the Administration, because I like that on general principles, but that said:

While I think lying or otherwise obstructing justice is a bad thing, and has to be punished, I can get much more exercised about any number of "blue collar" crimes than I do about whether or not some well-off middle-age jackass, of whatever political persuasion, lies under oath -- especially in what is, essentially, a political case.

S_A_M

Replaced_Texan 06-07-2007 12:57 PM

Goddamned fucking Phelps family puts me in a position where I actually feel the need to defend their actions. Or at least object to their jailing.
Quote:

OMAHA, Neb. -- A woman was arrested in Bellevue, Neb., on Tuesday during the funeral for a fallen soldier.

Shirley Phelps-Roper was arrested on suspicion of contributing to the delinquency of a minor for allegedly allowing her 8-year-old son to stomp on an American flag.

Phelps-Roper is a member of a Topeka, Kan., church that conducts anti-homosexual picketing at funeral services for U.S. soldiers.
I hate those people with the passion of a thousand hot firey suns, but...

taxwonk 06-07-2007 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Goddamned fucking Phelps family puts me in a position where I actually feel the need to defend their actions. Or at least object to their jailing. I hate those people with the passion of a thousand hot firey suns, but...
I'll start trying to work up some sympathy right after I get over this whole Paris Hilton release thing.

Hank Chinaski 06-07-2007 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Goddamned fucking Phelps family puts me in a position where I actually feel the need to defend their actions. Or at least object to their jailing. I hate those people with the passion of a thousand hot firey suns, but...
can someone explain the reason they picket soldier funerals? I mean their reason, I'm not asking you guys to justify it. doesn't she know god loves the USA as long as we don't have a Dem for Prez?

Secret_Agent_Man 06-07-2007 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
can someone explain the reason they picket soldier funerals? I mean their reason, I'm not asking you guys to justify it. doesn't she know god loves the USA as long as we don't have a Dem for Prez?
Apparently not. They seem to think we need to burn all the queers first.

Now RT knows what it feels like to be the ACLU defending the American Nazi Party after Skokie.

S_A_M

Tyrone Slothrop 06-07-2007 09:49 PM

Judge Bork does his bit for tort reform.

taxwonk 06-07-2007 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Judge Bork does his bit for tort reform.
Those goddamn ultra-conservative former federal judges and their shiny-shoed ambulance-chasers at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher!!! They're as bad as that welfare queen Paris Hilton, trying to get a 45-day free ride on LA County's nickel.

Hank Chinaski 06-07-2007 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Judge Bork does his bit for tort reform.
now that you all run congress maybe he's trying to make himself more appointable?

Tyrone Slothrop 06-08-2007 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
now that you all run congress maybe he's trying to make himself more appointable?
The hematoma doesn't sound like fun.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-08-2007 11:16 AM

Bill Clinton gave a fantastic speech yesterday. Wonderful stuff.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-08-2007 12:40 PM

What next?
 
More of the same crap:
  • By Michael Hirsh
    Newsweek
    Updated: 4:45 p.m. ET June 7, 2007

    June 7, 2007 - While roaming around Balad Air Base north of Baghdad a year ago, I thought that the most telltale signs of how long George W. Bush intended to stay in Iraq were the cracks. Runway cracks, that is. Brig. Gen. Frank Gorenc, the base commander and leader of 332nd Air Expeditionary Wing, was very worried about them. The Saddam-era concrete was getting pummeled by the constant landings of U.S. F-16s, C-130s and other aircraft that flew in and out so regularly they had turned Balad into the busiest hub in the world outside of Heathrow. So Gorenc was slowly, painstakingly, rebuilding the runways to U.S. specs. No short-term plan, this. When it came to controlling the airspace over Iraq, Gorenc told me, “We will probably be helping the Iraqis with that problem for a very long time."

    Just how long is the issue of the day in Iraq-obsessed Washington. And frighteningly, no one seems more confused about the plan than Bush himself. In two separate appearances in the last week, he alternately invoked last fall’s Baker-Hamilton report—which envisioned a substantial pullout by early 2008—and America’s South Korea occupation, which has been a robust front-line presence for more than 50 years. Which is it?

    Neither, as it turns out. The Washington commentariat has suggested recently that Bush seems ready to pronounce the imminent end of his “surge,” which by several accounts has failed both to secure large parts of Baghdad and, on a more strategic level, to prod the still-paralyzed Iraqi government to govern. “I would like to see us in a different configuration at some point in time in Iraq,” the president said at a Rose Garden news conference on May 24. So is he talking about a “Plan B?” he was asked. “Actually, I would call that a plan recommended by Baker-Hamilton, so it would be a Plan B-H,” the president joked.

    In fact Bush has no intention of going back to Baker-Hamilton, says a senior White House official, who requested anonymity because he is not authorized to speak on the record. Sure, he’s paying a lot more lip service to its recommendations, partly in an effort to gain new bipartisan consensus on Capitol Hill after the White House’s successful effort to thwart a Democrat-led withdrawal plan. But one of the central recommendations of the Baker-Hamilton report called for a dramatic consolidation of the U.S. presence onto a handful of large bases like Balad. There, U.S. air units and special ops would mainly focus on killing Al Qaeda and leave the Iraqis more or less to their own devices. A long-term presence at Balad is still part of the plan—it always was—but the White House official told NEWSWEEK this week that the Baker-Hamilton panel misunderstood the mission. “What Baker-Hamilton didn’t get right is the military feasibility of doing anti-Al Qaeda missions based primarily on special forces operations,” he told me. “That isn’t feasible because Al Qaeda is so entrenched in the population.” When the National Intelligence Estimate “gamed this out,” he said, it concluded that sectarian violence was now so out of control that to allow Shiite reprisals to occur while the Americans remained hunkered down on their bases would only fuel support among the Sunnis for Al Qaeda, which would grow even more entrenched. Hence the surge’s effort to rein in Moqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army and other chief culprits.

    This will continue for many months. So while the president supports Baker-Hamilton’s “end state”—stabilizing Iraq—he doesn’t intend to get there using its recommendations. That means “a fairly robust presence beyond the end of 2008,” the official said. “A sustainable presence.” How would you define that? I asked him. “Well, sustainable has always been kind of a 10-[combat-]brigade presence. We’re at 20 now.” A plan for 10 U.S. brigades amounts to about 50,000 combat troops, and another 30,000 troops in support. So about 80,000 U.S. troops will need to stay in Iraq over the long term, about half of the force planned for the height of the surge this summer.

    All of which brings us to Bush’s recent invocation of South Korea, where tens of thousands of U.S. troops have been stationed along or near the border since the truce that ended the Korean War—there is no peace treaty—54 years ago. But here the president apparently hasn’t thought things through either. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, in an interview last week, told me that there was no Status of Forces Agreement with the Shiite-led government, which is increasingly dominated by the virulently anti-American Sadr, that would legally permit a long-term U.S. presence. <> Nor is there any sign of a truce between Sunnis and Shia. So Iraq really is nothing like South Korea.

    Some of Bush’s putative Republican successors, like Mitt Romney, don’t like the Korean model. “Our objective would not be a Korea-type setting with 25,000 to 50,000 troops on a near-permanent basis remaining in bases in Iraq,” the former Massachusetts governor told The Associated Press on Thursday. Romney and most of the other candidates embrace the Baker-Hamilton recommendation of rapidly training up the Iraqi Army to take over security. Under the plans put forward last fall, that meant quadrupling the number of U.S. training teams. Why was such an increase necessary? Last fall, the military brass were moving toward a consensus that to be really effective, U.S. training teams needed to operate down at the company level, not just embedded within a battalion (which is made of three companies). That meant as many as 20,000 to 30,000 additional U.S. advisers would be required, up from the 5,000 or so then being budgeted.

    But to do that effectively, U.S. combat brigades needed to be shifted out of Iraq so their officer corps could be turned into trainers. And under the surge, that’s not happening either. To do so, it would mean “a fairly significant change to the [U.S.] force laydown in Iraq,” Maj Gen. Carter Ham, the commandant at Fort Riley, the U.S. Army’s adviser-training center, told me. The big trade-off of the surge that few people are taking note of—what it really has cost us—is that it is taking precious time away from the program to bring the Iraqi Army to readiness. The surge is therefore ensuring that U.S. troops will have to remain longer on the front lines of an intractable sectarian war.

    The upshot is there really is no Plan B, or Plan B-H, or indeed anything coherent. The goal is Baker-Hamilton’s “end-state,” but without the training up of Iraqis that would allow the recommended pullout to happen by March 2008. It’s the South Korean occupation without the truce, or a status-of-forces pact. It’s just Iraq, in other words— a quagmire that is as resistant to solutions as ever.

link

SlaveNoMore 06-08-2007 12:54 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Tyrone Slothrop
More of the same crap
I think everyone assumes this risk when reading any of your links.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-08-2007 12:58 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
I think everyone assumes this risk when reading any of your links.
Like Newsweek. You really got me there.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-08-2007 01:00 PM

Anyone know more about this case? This sounds like a good result:
  • A New London Superior court judge this morning overturned the conviction of Julie Amero, who was found guilty of exposing Norwich schoolchildren to pornography on a computer, and has granted Amero a new trial.

    Judge Hillary Strackbein said the state had conducted further forensic information that the jury had not heard at the trial. The information, according to defense experts, was that the computer had generated pornographic popups and that Amero, a substitute teacher, was not at fault. Amero had been convicted of four counts of risk of injury to a minor and faced up to 40 years in prison.

    She has has been the subject of national attention as of result of the conviction, and seemed relieved after Attorney William Dow explained the judge's ruling.

    "I have a great team behind me and I feel very comfortable with the rulings," she said before getting into a car with her husband and leaving.

    "It was a porn trap," said Chip Neville, a retired computer sciences professor who had petitioned the office of the Chief State's Attorney to review the verdict.

    "We're all exposed to this. We wander into the wrong site innocently."

Cletus Miller 06-08-2007 01:19 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
More of the same crap:

they had turned Balad into the busiest hub in the world outside of Heathrow.

I stopped reading after this basic factual error. When a writer can't use accurate trivia in his hyperbolic comparison, I wonder what other "facts" are made up.

futbol fan 06-08-2007 01:26 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Cletus Miller
I stopped reading after this basic factual error. When a writer can't use accurate trivia in his hyperbolic comparison, I wonder what other "facts" are made up.
It's a good thing you stopped reading, because I think the writer's point was that Bush doesn't really have a plan to end the war, which we all know is bullshit.

Hank Chinaski 06-08-2007 01:39 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
It's a good thing you stopped reading, because I think the writer's point was that Bush doesn't really have a plan to end the war, which we all know is bullshit.
he main point is that we are fixing a runway, and that is proof we are staying forever. the rest is churned nonsense. bullshit hold together at least.

"Bush doesn't care enough for the troops to get them adequate armor!"

"Bush is trying to make the runways safe which proves he won't pull out of Iraq ever!"

JFC.

futbol fan 06-08-2007 01:43 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
he main point is that we are fixing a runway, and that is proof we are staying forever. the rest is churned nonsense. bullshit hold together at least.

"Bush doesn't care enough for the troops to get them adequate armor!"

"Bush is trying to make the runways safe which proves he won't pull out of Iraq ever!"

JFC.
me main point is that nitpicking over detail is way to avoid address larger point in piece of writing, tonto.

KFC

Hank Chinaski 06-08-2007 01:46 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
me main point is that nitpicking over detail is way to avoid address larger point in piece of writing, tonto.

KFC
calling me out for typos is like calling someone else Hitler. you lose.

310-21

Tyrone Slothrop 06-08-2007 01:46 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
me main point is that nitpicking over detail is way to avoid address larger point in piece of writing, tonto.
Hank would prefer to argue about shit that he's made up and put in quotes, rather than nitpick over detail.

Hank Chinaski 06-08-2007 01:47 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Hank would prefer to argue about shit that he's made up and put in quotes, rather than nitpick over detail.
I'm geared up to have a friday flame war with flower. you lot should keep your heads down. Shock and awe!!!

ltl/fb 06-08-2007 01:48 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
me main point is that nitpicking over detail is way to avoid address larger point in piece of writing, tonto.

KFC
Fried chicken??????

taxwonk 06-08-2007 01:48 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
calling me out for typos is like calling someone else Hitler. you lose.

310-21
He wasn't calling you out over a typo.

JFC


KFC


Stare at them both for a few minutes. It should come to you if you think hard enough.

taxwonk 06-08-2007 01:49 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Fried chicken??????
See, Hank? This sort of thing is what keeps Fringe out of your league.

sebastian_dangerfield 06-08-2007 01:50 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
me main point is that nitpicking over detail is way to avoid address larger point in piece of writing, tonto.
Actually, I think that's called debating these days. Or maybe there's another term for what all those stuffed shirts have been doing for the past few weeks.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-08-2007 01:50 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I'm geared up to have a friday flame war with flower. you lot should keep your heads down. Shock and awe!!!
If reading and quoting from Newsweek was the price I had to pay to bring that kind of life to the board, so be it.

sebastian_dangerfield 06-08-2007 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The hematoma doesn't sound like fun.
His book on why we ought to have more censorship is fascinating. I had a near unstoppable urge to wipe my as with it. Then I say the Barnes & Noble security warning.

I'm rooting for the hematoma. Unfortunately, WikiDoctor tells me it's rarely fatal.

Bork should be boiled in oil for filing that suit. And fuck Gibson Dunn. Those hard ons pimp Federalist douches like Olsen into public sphere and then have the nerve to play ambulance chaser for a man who'd just as easily die falling in his bathtub and clearly assumed the risk?

Cletus Miller 06-08-2007 02:41 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
It's a good thing you stopped reading, because I think the writer's point was that Bush doesn't really have a plan to end the war, which we all know is bullshit.
I need someone who thinks that Heathrow is the busiest airport in the world, who works for a magazine that allows such an obvious (albeit minor) error to be published, to fill me in on the blindingly obvious? Of course Bush doesn't have an exit strategy--that is not newsworthy. Further circumstantial evidence that Bush intends to keep the US in Iraq for an extended period? I want to hear about circumstantial evidence that anyone in this administration has the least fucking clue what to do about Iraq in the short or long term.

Fixing a runway to maintain operational safety--even if it's a billion dollar job--seems like what I would want my base commander taking care of if I were a pilot flying in Iraq. Whatever the cost, it's a rounding error on the whole endeavour--the last thing I want is people dying because of a poorly maintained runway (that is, because of something completely w/in our control as of today). Everyone directly involved with deciding to fix it cannot avoid criticism--if they don't make it safe, they don't care about the troops, if they do make it safe, we're staying forever.

Aside from that, isn't the US trying (or, at least, shouldn't it be trying) to fix a few things in Iraq? Which would include making the principal military air base safe enough to continue to use, no? We broke it, we should fix it, among other things. And, even if the ground troops pull out, it's not likely that we're giving up Iraqi air bases--how else do we adequately fulfill our nation's destiny and bomb Iran?

ltl/fb 06-08-2007 02:54 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Cletus Miller
I need someone who thinks that Heathrow is the busiest airport in the world, who works for a magazine that allows such an obvious (albeit minor) error to be published, to fill me in on the blindingly obvious?
Heathrow apparently has the most international travelers, if not the most passengers total. Hub maybe implies that it has a lot of people stopping there en route to other places; the busier airports may have people actually wanting to stay in the location they land.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-08-2007 03:03 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Cletus Miller
I need someone who thinks that Heathrow is the busiest airport in the world, who works for a magazine that allows such an obvious (albeit minor) error to be published, to fill me in on the blindingly obvious? Of course Bush doesn't have an exit strategy--that is not newsworthy. Further circumstantial evidence that Bush intends to keep the US in Iraq for an extended period? I want to hear about circumstantial evidence that anyone in this administration has the least fucking clue what to do about Iraq in the short or long term.

Fixing a runway to maintain operational safety--even if it's a billion dollar job--seems like what I would want my base commander taking care of if I were a pilot flying in Iraq. Whatever the cost, it's a rounding error on the whole endeavour--the last thing I want is people dying because of a poorly maintained runway (that is, because of something completely w/in our control as of today). Everyone directly involved with deciding to fix it cannot avoid criticism--if they don't make it safe, they don't care about the troops, if they do make it safe, we're staying forever.

Aside from that, isn't the US trying (or, at least, shouldn't it be trying) to fix a few things in Iraq? Which would include making the principal military air base safe enough to continue to use, no? We broke it, we should fix it, among other things. And, even if the ground troops pull out, it's not likely that we're giving up Iraqi air bases--how else do we adequately fulfill our nation's destiny and bomb Iran?
I think you're jumping to the conclusion that cracks in the runway pose a short-term safety problem. I read that article and infer that the cracks pose no short-term problem, and that the decision to fix them speaks to planning for the long-term.

But maybe I'm all wet.

Tyrone Slothrop 06-08-2007 03:10 PM

The President gets him some more lawyers.
 
Announcement here

The count by law school:

Connecticut 1
Yale 1
Texas 1
Penn 1
Georgetown 2
Harvard 2
Columbia 1

Curiously, none from Regent.

Hank Chinaski 06-08-2007 03:46 PM

What next?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think you're jumping to the conclusion that cracks in the runway pose a short-term safety problem. I read that article and infer that the cracks pose no short-term problem, and that the decision to fix them speaks to planning for the long-term.

But maybe I'm all wet.
runway repair is an ongoing project. not only cracks but cleaning. wheel rubber is skid-depositied and needs to be removed. we know the article inferred they are not a problem- that is part of the reason Cletus says he quit reading- the article was poorly researched and full of shit.

On all these things you keep digging yourself into a hole much like you claim bush is doing. If flower were here I would ask him if that is ironic.


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