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-   -   Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630)

sebastian_dangerfield 09-30-2004 12:09 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Uh, you don't have any answer. And bag the cheap name-calling. You've not answered the question 100X, but used words like "nuts", "stupid", "silly" etc. 101. Which is funny, you expect me to let the issue go away because you call me names, while all I'm asking for is one good reason you shouldn't be subjected to burdens fairly.

Look, I don't really expect you to answer that. The fact is, both you and I would both be happy if anyone ever brought this topic up in national politics. These programs would be killed yesterday if someone were to threaten to impose them semi-uniformly tomorrow.
Actually, I don't give a shit. I really don't. I just take offense at your insinuation that I'm somehow culpable in some societal ill for moving to the burbs. Other than that, and the fact that you keep winding this boring goddamned issue into every other discussion, I really have no issue with you.

ilikenewsocks 09-30-2004 12:13 PM

Your man in 2008!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Agree. The Dems need a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' muthafuckas. Have they ever had one? The Republicans have plenty.*

*but that's b/c they're always so angry. Old angry bitter white men telling the neighbor kids to "STAY OFF MY LAWN" while shaking their fists.
Two words. Marion Barry. He's back!

Say_hello_for_me 09-30-2004 12:17 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
My point was that people still flee to the burbs even though the near north is becoming more white. So why are they still leaving?
Look where they are leaving and where they are going. A city that still has a massive social burden. You seeing people leaving for Calumet City or South Holland or Maywood (i.e., other places that are now subjected to the same massive burden but have nowhere near the ability of Chicago to withstand it)? No. They are very specifically going as far away as they can from anyplace that has public housing and section 8. Which leads full circle to the original proposition. Why is it okay to impose it on homeowners in South Holland while exempting those in DuPage?

Gattigap 09-30-2004 12:37 PM

Shinseki
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Several on this board have been passing along this myth (Ty, SAM), so I'm wondering what the lefty blogs have to say about this.



http://www.townhall.com/columnists/r...20040930.shtml
I'm not sure I really care about the details of how his service ended -- whether it was from the 200k troops statement, or clashes over the brand of toilet paper at the Pentagon.

Shinseki's statement to Congress could not have been more public and hi-profile, nor could the Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz slapdown shortly thereafter.

Shinseki, it turns out, was right. Where's the "myth" to that?

Gattigap 09-30-2004 12:53 PM

James Fallows on the debates
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Yep, that's the one (though mine was on radio). The danger for each side's partisans is succumbing to the temptation to extrapolate too far from Bush's abysmal press conferences or otherwise "extemperaneous" interviews, or from Kerry's speeches.
Actually, never mind. Hoagland in WaPo tells us that the negotiated format for the "debates" will essentially reduce the event to dueling stump speeches.

Quote:

The rules constrain Kerry more than Bush. Unless the challenger is prepared to "cheat" Thursday night -- to go up to and even across the lines of prescribed and proscribed behavior -- the devil in these details will tilt the first debate into an exchange of stump speeches.

That prospect delights the Bush camp.

"We've got the better campaign speech and the only candidate who is good at delivering one," says a Bush campaign insider. An internal study by the Kerry campaign echoes this view. It found that in 2000, Bush took 18 lines from his standard speech and repeated at least one of them 59 times in three debates against Al Gore. "We have to deal with the fact he stays on message," says a Kerry strategist.

The precautions the Bush camp has taken suggest that its fears in the first debate center on Kerry's prosecutorial experience and debate techniques. James Baker, Bush's chief negotiator, seeks to protect his client's flanks with rules that prevent the two candidates from asking each other direct questions or addressing each other with proposals. And they may not roam, Clinton-style, from their podiums, when the debates move into a town hall setting.
I also remember learning via TDS that a big sticking point was the Bush camp's refusal to keep the temperature below 70 degrees because, as a Bush adviser put it, "Kerry's a sweater. Women don't like a sweater."

Nicely done, Karl! Nicely done indeed.

Shape Shifter 09-30-2004 01:04 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Look where they are leaving and where they are going. A city that still has a massive social burden. You seeing people leaving for Calumet City or South Holland or Maywood (i.e., other places that are now subjected to the same massive burden but have nowhere near the ability of Chicago to withstand it)? No. They are very specifically going as far away as they can from anyplace that has public housing and section 8. Which leads full circle to the original proposition. Why is it okay to impose it on homeowners in South Holland while exempting those in DuPage?
I really haven't figured out your point with these arguments. It think it's something like "Section 8 is bad," or perhaps it is "Democrats are ruining the inner cities." As you seem to be offering only your personal experiences, I will offer mine.

Suburbs in Houston are cheap and plentiful. You can get a big house with a big yard on a quiet street for not too much money. Sure, you have to deal with the commute. But it's not so bad if you working in one of the sprawling business campuses that ring the city. Why are they there? Land. Cheap, cheap land. And tax breaks.

I hate suburbs, work downtown, and I hate commuting. When I was looking to buy a place in Houston, it was going to be in the inner loop. Some of the most expensive properties were in an area that is probably one of the most racially, ethnically, and culturally diverse in the city. I have not done research on the issue (help, RT!), but I suspect there is a good deal of Section 8 housing in this area.

For the same prices as the places we were looking at in this neighborhood, we could have gotten a 5,000 sf house on the golf course in the burbs. The only neighborhoods more expensive than the r/e/c diverse one are the ones with the mansions housing our local industry leaders. I doubt there is any Section 8 housing in River Oaks. It is a Republican stronghold.

"Republican" and "Democrat" are terms that don't mean much in local elections. Ability and backbone mean so much more. Local governments do not deal so much in macroeconomic abstractions. The deal with concrete issues such as, well, concrete to fill the potholes. And garbage collection.

What was your point again?

Say_hello_for_me 09-30-2004 01:16 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter

What was your point again?
Bottom line: If we are going to have section 8 or public housing, it should not be concentrated; rather, the burden should be imposed everywhere within reason. Before the argument was shifted to the causes of suburbanization (by me, heh heh heh), this was essentially it. I originally posted an article from the Chicago Suntimes that detailed how there are numerous suburbs in Chicago that have no section 8, whereas the absolute worst neighborhoods in the city (Lawndale, Englewood) are overrun with concentrated vouchers and public housing.

The premise is:

1.) If Johnson declares a war on Poverty, then we should all be equally enlisted;
2.) If anyone declares any kind of war on anything, we should not be fighting to lose (sound familiar?).

I promise the rest of ya, this is my last post on the thread. Ya weren't supposed to like hearing it. Who else here could attack Dems, Republicans and Sebby in one political string?

He(the real Right)llo

Shape Shifter 09-30-2004 01:19 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Bottom line: If we are going to have section 8 or public housing, it should not be concentrated; rather, the burden should be imposed everywhere within reason. Before the argument was shifted to the causes of suburbanization (by me, heh heh heh), this was essentially it. I originally posted an article from the Chicago Suntimes that detailed how there are numerous suburbs in Chicago that have no section 8, whereas the absolute worst neighborhoods in the city (Lawndale, Englewood) are overrun with concentrated vouchers and public housing.

The premise is:

1.) If Johnson declares a war on Poverty, then we should all be equally enlisted;
2.) If anyone declares any kind of war on anything, we should not be fighting to lose (sound familiar?).

I promise the rest of ya, this is my last post on the thread. Ya weren't supposed to like hearing it. Who else here could attack Dems, Republicans and Sebby in one political string?

He(the real Right)llo
I am all for Section 8 housing in River Oaks. I'm with you, I guess.

Replaced_Texan 09-30-2004 01:24 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I really haven't figured out your point with these arguments. It think it's something like "Section 8 is bad," or perhaps it is "Democrats are ruining the inner cities." As you seem to be offering only your personal experiences, I will offer mine.

Suburbs in Houston are cheap and plentiful. You can get a big house with a big yard on a quiet street for not too much money. Sure, you have to deal with the commute. But it's not so bad if you working in one of the sprawling business campuses that ring the city. Why are they there? Land. Cheap, cheap land. And tax breaks.
I'd wholeheartedly agree with this. It costs next to nothing to buy land in a prarie here and develop it. While it would suck my soul to have to move to one of those places, I don't have three kids and need a place to put them. You can own a decent sized house, with a fair amount of land for under $200K in a hell of a lot of suburbs.

Quote:

I hate suburbs, work downtown, and I hate commuting. When I was looking to buy a place in Houston, it was going to be in the inner loop. Some of the most expensive properties were in an area that is probably one of the most racially, ethnically, and culturally diverse in the city. I have not done research on the issue (help, RT!), but I suspect there is a good deal of Section 8 housing in this area.

For the same prices as the places we were looking at in this neighborhood, we could have gotten a 5,000 sf house on the golf course in the burbs. The only neighborhoods more expensive than the r/e/c diverse one are the ones with the mansions housing our local industry leaders. I doubt there is any Section 8 housing in River Oaks. It is a Republican stronghold.
Houston is a little different than a lot of other large cities because the city tends to annex the suburbs to retain the tax base, so it's all Houston. The city is physically the size of Rhode Island, there is no zoning, and there are no natural constraints like rivers or mountains or other cities on growth. For some reason the school systems are separate though, and I think that has a bigger impact than subsidized housing.

There's Section 8 housing right next to River Oaks, and I'd argue that the property that Allen Parkway Village (the oldest subsidized housing project in the city, and subject to massive contraversy because it was recently torn down (and uglyly rebuilt) is on is probably some of the most valuable in the city. The fourth ward (where Allen Parkway Village is located) has been able to accomodate a lot of the recent gentrification without losing it's longtime (poor, black) residents because the city made an effort to require subsidized housing when Perry Homes came in and started tearing down the old shotgun houses.

I think we keep on growing outward because it's inexpensive and the highway department likes to build freeways. I can't imagine living outside the loop though.

SlaveNoMore 09-30-2004 01:29 PM

Take the Ginheads Bowling
 
Quote:

Did you just call me Coltrane?
You of all people should respect this. If not, you can no longer be a Little Lebowski Urban Achiever.
And aren't we proud of all of them?

Gattigap 09-30-2004 01:36 PM

Kerry Haters for Kerry
 
Finally, an organization that we can all agree on (or, at least we theoretically could.)

Kerry-Haters for Kerry

My favorite page? The Panic Room.

Quote:

Worried that you'll blurt out to friends and acquaintances what you really think about Kerry, costing him precious votes? Don't keep it bottled up inside! Let it all out here, in the Panic Room, where nobody will see it. You'll feel better -- without demoralizing the base!

Shape Shifter 09-30-2004 01:44 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan

There's Section 8 housing right next to River Oaks, and I'd argue that the property that Allen Parkway Village (the oldest subsidized housing project in the city, and subject to massive contraversy because it was recently torn down (and uglyly rebuilt) is on is probably some of the most valuable in the city. The fourth ward (where Allen Parkway Village is located) has been able to accomodate a lot of the recent gentrification without losing it's longtime (poor, black) residents because the city made an effort to require subsidized housing when Perry Homes came in and started tearing down the old shotgun houses.
I may well be wrong about this, but I thought that the Allen Parkway Village was publicly owned. Section 8 provides vouchers for low-income folks to rent from private owners. Either way, it is obvious that Chicago could learn from Houston's example. That's some prime real estate.

Quote:

I think we keep on growing outward because it's inexpensive and the highway department likes to build freeways. I can't imagine living outside the loop though.
Also, developers and highway contractors tend to play a pretty big role in local politics. I don't think they really care if the politicians are Republican or Democrat as long as they get their projects approved. Judging from Houston's growth patterns, they often are. Fortunately, with Tom DeLay representing the suburbs, more people seem to be wanting to move to the inner loop.

Did you just call me Coltrane? 09-30-2004 01:45 PM

Kerry Haters for Kerry
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Finally, an organization that we can all agree on (or, at least we theoretically could.)

Kerry-Haters for Kerry

My favorite page? The Panic Room.
The note on the banner is pretty funny:

http://www.kerryhatersforkerry.com/kh4k_banner.jpg

Tyrone Slothrop 09-30-2004 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
This is shite. If you look at every election in the last 50 years (and probably longer) the more optimistic/personally likeable candidate always wins. The reason why the DEMs are having trouble this that thier candidate is not optimistic/likeable.
http://www.pritchettcartoons.com/caricatures/nixon.jpg

SlaveNoMore 09-30-2004 02:07 PM

Speaking of MENSA
 
From Drudge:
  • On Oprah's Wednesday 'voting party' show featuring important celebrities like P. Diddy (Vote or Die!), Drew Barrymore and Christina Aguilera, svelte suffragette Cameron Diaz took to shock tactics to get the female vote out.

    After a discussion on lynching and the vote with Oprah, Diaz spoke of the dire consequences for women if they sit out this election:

    Ms. DIAZ: We have a voice now, and we're not using it, and women have so much to lose. I mean, we could lose the right to our bodies. We could lo--if you think that rape should be legal, then don't vote. But if you think that you have a right to your body, and you have a right to say what happens to you and fight off that danger of losing that, then you should vote, and those are the...

    WINFREY: It's your voice.

    Ms. DIAZ: It's your voice. It's your voice, that's your right.

No additional comment is necessary.

Tyrone Slothrop 09-30-2004 02:10 PM

Speaking of MENSA
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
From Drudge:
  • On Oprah's Wednesday 'voting party' show featuring important celebrities like P. Diddy (Vote or Die!), Drew Barrymore and Christina Aguilera, svelte suffragette Cameron Diaz took to shock tactics to get the female vote out.

    After a discussion on lynching and the vote with Oprah, Diaz spoke of the dire consequences for women if they sit out this election:

    Ms. DIAZ: We have a voice now, and we're not using it, and women have so much to lose. I mean, we could lose the right to our bodies. We could lo--if you think that rape should be legal, then don't vote. But if you think that you have a right to your body, and you have a right to say what happens to you and fight off that danger of losing that, then you should vote, and those are the...

    WINFREY: It's your voice.

    Ms. DIAZ: It's your voice. It's your voice, that's your right.

No additional comment is necessary.
No "additional" comment is necessary? Think of the poor baby electrons, going to bed tonight without mothers and fathers, simply because you and Drudge had to share this! Oh the humanity!

Hank Chinaski 09-30-2004 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
http://www.pritchettcartoons.com/caricatures/nixon.jpg
He said "more likeable" not "likeable."

Nixon v. Kennedy = Kennedy
Nixon v. Humphrey or McGovern=Nixon

Did you just call me Coltrane? 09-30-2004 02:10 PM

Speaking of MENSA
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
From Drudge:
  • On Oprah's Wednesday 'voting party' show featuring important celebrities like P. Diddy (Vote or Die!), Drew Barrymore and Christina Aguilera, svelte suffragette Cameron Diaz took to shock tactics to get the female vote out.

    After a discussion on lynching and the vote with Oprah, Diaz spoke of the dire consequences for women if they sit out this election:

    Ms. DIAZ: We have a voice now, and we're not using it, and women have so much to lose. I mean, we could lose the right to our bodies. We could lo--if you think that rape should be legal, then don't vote. But if you think that you have a right to your body, and you have a right to say what happens to you and fight off that danger of losing that, then you should vote, and those are the...

    WINFREY: It's your voice.

    Ms. DIAZ: It's your voice. It's your voice, that's your right.

No additional comment is necessary.
Cameron Diaz has the right to age 20 years in the past 5. And she has exercised that right.

Hank Chinaski 09-30-2004 02:12 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I may well be wrong about this,
I find this type of qualifier unnecessary in your posts at this point. No offense.

SlaveNoMore 09-30-2004 02:18 PM

Speaking of MENSA
 
Quote:

Tyrone Slothrop
No "additional" comment is necessary? Think of the poor baby electrons, going to bed tonight without mothers and fathers, simply because you and Drudge had to share this! Oh the humanity!
What? Did Oprah give you a new Pontiac?

Hank Chinaski 09-30-2004 02:27 PM

Speaking of MENSA
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Cameron Diaz has the right to age 20 years in the past 5. And she has exercised that right.
But what did the rape comment mean? Do you think she means Kerry will let the Taliban in to run things under UN auspices, or is this a hint she's afraid that Clinton might step back in?

Not Bob 09-30-2004 02:32 PM

the alternative meaning of "milk money"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
He said "more likeable" not "likeable."

Nixon v. Kennedy = Kennedy
Nixon v. Humphrey or McGovern=Nixon
Wrong. Everybody (other than Hunter S. Thompson) loved the Happy Warrior and his Politics of Joy. Nixon barely won in 1968 despite things like the implosion in Chicago ("the whole world is watching!") and Wallace sucking off Democratic votes.

You're right on McGovern, though, especially after CREEP hung him with the "acid, amnesty, and abortion" line. Not to mention the Eagleton fiasco, which made George look like (1) an idiot who picked a nut-job as VP nominee, and yet (2) a bastard who was insensitive to victims mental illness.

Tyrone Slothrop 09-30-2004 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
He said "more likeable" not "likeable."

Nixon v. Kennedy = Kennedy
Nixon v. Humphrey or McGovern=Nixon
You don't know much about George McGovern and Richard Nixon, do you?

Tyrone Slothrop 09-30-2004 02:49 PM

Speaking of MENSA
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
What? Did Oprah give you a new Pontiac?
I have about as much time for Oprah as I do for Drudge.

taxwonk 09-30-2004 02:53 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Gee, when you don't have a substantive answer that can't be blown apart on a first pass, just call the other side "silly" or "stupid" or something. You know this Sebby character?

The fact is, people use codewords like "crowded and dirty" to justify moving from Austin to Oak Park, though the neighborhoods are virtually identical but-for this one little thing that the evil coalition has wrought.

Work? Who left the city first, the scared whites or Sears, Motorola and Exelon? Its the whole critical mass thing I addressed in another post.

Cheaper? Your subdivision wasn't new, was it? There have been numerous articles and studies in the Chicago area noting that the infrastructure for new communities (roads, sewers, schools) is bought with tax money from old communities. But hey, those aren't your neighbors anymore, so fuck-em, right?

So tell me about more holes in my theory regarding fairness etc. The fact is, you and the rest of the scared whites originally protested the idea of spreading section 8 to Lake Forest and Schaumburg and wherever-the-fuck Sebby lives. Let me guess, Motorola and Exelon and Sears won't hire those people, or they wouldn't be able to afford your half-off townhome, or... uhm, why shouldn't you suffer like those in the city again?

The thing is, nobody here has been able to justify the opposition. Y'all are too busy explaining that nope, its just better in the suburbs, and the lack of public housing and section 8 is just gravy!

Like I said. Wanna see how quickly the Democratic party agrees to get rid of your precious social programs? Threaten to fairly implement them so Democrats have to live with the results.

From the Republicans, the argument (not that you've presented any) is just disingenuous. From y'all Democrats, its downright hypocritical.

Hello
Actually, the dirty and crowded neighborhood I left was Lincoln Park. And as for your assumption that the reason I left the city was to get away from the Black and the Brown folks -- fuck you, you racist asshole.

That's right, I called YOU a racist. You assume that everybody in the suburbs is some scared white asshole, separated from your basic redneck cracker only by a higher level of education and a lower level of firearm and stars and bars flag ownership. Well, I call bullshit. Your assumptions are as bad as the people you purport to condemn.

What's more, I would welcome section 8 housing in my community. I have long advocated widely-scattered low density public housing as a first step in eliminating the permanent underclass. So you can take your superior attitude and you can shove it up your pompous self-satisfied ass.

Just a guess here, but you went to U of Chicago and you still live in Hyde Park, right?

Hank Chinaski 09-30-2004 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You don't know much about George McGovern and Richard Nixon, do you?
One spoke at my graduation and one is my favorite politician.

Hank Chinaski 09-30-2004 02:55 PM

the alternative meaning of "milk money"
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Not Bob
Wrong. Everybody (other than Hunter S. Thompson) loved the Happy Warrior and his Politics of Joy. Nixon barely won in 1968 despite things like the implosion in Chicago ("the whole world is watching!") and Wallace sucking off Democratic votes.

You're right on McGovern, though, especially after CREEP hung him with the "acid, amnesty, and abortion" line. Not to mention the Eagleton fiasco, which made George look like (1) an idiot who picked a nut-job as VP nominee, and yet (2) a bastard who was insensitive to victims mental illness.
is this an attempt to be metrosexual?

taxwonk 09-30-2004 02:59 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Maybe he hasn't been to the near north side in a while. W/in five years Cabrini Green will be replaced by condos. It's so gentrified there are very few minorities left. People still flee to the burbs, though.

Not me though. Never. I could understand living in the burbs of another city. Some are quite scenic and offer many opportunites for outdoor activities, etc. Not the Chicago burbs. No hills. Shitty traffic. Overpriced farmland.
I'm fully aware of the gentrification taking place on the near north side, the near west side and the near south side. All the yuppie sinlgles and dinks want condos and townhomes close enough to the Loop to walk to work. But then, with the prices they're paying for them, they need to be close to work to put in the hours.

I didn't move out of the city to get away from the colored folks. I moved to the burbs because I like them. Now I have even more reason to be here because I work out here. But it never had anything to do with white flight.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 09-30-2004 03:00 PM

Speaking of MENSA
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I have about as much time for Oprah as I do for Drudge.
So she stuck with the tax bill on that Pontiac, huh?

Tyrone Slothrop 09-30-2004 03:01 PM

An e-mail from Andrew Sullivan's site gives the conservative case for Kerry:
  • When the invasion of Iraq was being debated, I had just returned from two years in Morocco and my now wife had just returned from a year in Egypt. We both considered supporting the war. The Arab world is mired in a political culture obsessed with blaming others for their misfortunes and obsessing over Israel while doing nothing to find practical solutions to their own problems closer to home.

    When I was in Morocco, there was a demonstration in Rabat that drew between half a million and three million demonstrators against the reoccupation of the West Bank in April of 2002. Never mind that Israel is on the other side of the Mediterranean and that their demonstration could have no impact on the Palestinians' situation. Never mind that their own government has occupied the Western Sahara against the wishes of the native inhabitants of that territory, a situation that in some ways parallels the situation of Israel and Palestine. Never mind that, in the early 21st century, they are still ruled by a Monarchy making only feeble gestures towards instituting a democracy, and have a stagnant economy barely able to keep up with the country's birth rate, let alone employ the millions of idle, jobless young Moroccans whose best hope in life is to emigrate legally or illegally to Europe in hopes of finding menial, low-wage labor. Few Moroccans will lift a finger to try to change their own situation, but they will pour into the streets for the sake of an impotent gesture on the behalf of the Palestinians. Political discussions tend to revolve around conspiracy theories involving "The Jews." The 10 year old who lived downstairs from me was convinced that 4000 Jews had called in sick to work on 9/11, tipped off by the Mossad that the attack was going to occur. His father would not admit to holding this view, but probably did and would say publicly that Bin Laden was not behind the attack (Powell promised a dossier in Arabic spelling out evidence of Bin Laden's responsibility for 9/11. This was never done, to my knowledge. A serious oversight.).

    My wife had similar experiences in Egypt. We both thought that a shock to the system and a scheme to jar at least one Arab country onto the right track might be worth it. In the end, we both decided that it would be a bad idea, and for good conservative reasons. Utopian social programs rarely work domestically, in circumstances in which the architects of social engineering share a language and culture with their subjects and in which the surrounding society is stable and prosperous. If this is the case, how can we expect a radical experiment in social engineering to succeed in a foreign country with a radically different culture, and in which distrust of the United States is imbibed with mother's milk? Arabs are fixated enough on what they perceive as past humiliations, how can adding another defeat to the list help them?

    Subsequent rationales for the war were not convincing. Engage the terrorists in Iraq or face them here? Does anyone really believe that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had a one-way ticket to the US and a scholarship at a flight school but decided to turn around and have a go at us in Iraq after he heard about the invasion? Iraq, in fact, supplies a theater for attacking the US that most of the fighters there, foreign and Iraqi, would not have if we had not given it to them. If Saddam Hussein were still in power, we could continue to contain him for 2 billion per year and when his system did finally collapse, it would be up to Iraqis to sort out the mess, not us. As for Blair's claim that Muslim militants hate the West for our very existence, I don't buy it. Resent us, yes. Envy us, sure. But if we didn't meddle in Middle Eastern affairs, I doubt they would attack us. Bush's claim in his first public statement after 9/11 that they hate us for our freedom is a close parallel to the claim of Muslim militants that we hate them for their core identity and values, that is, that we hate them for being Muslims, that we hate Islam as such. The Middle East is a disaster. Its economies are stagnant, its resources are minimal and being depleted, its population is growing, its infrastructure is crumbling, its literacy rates are low and so on and so forth. There will be no stability there in the foreseeable future and the correct response to this should be to minimize involvement with the region.

    Now, we are stuck fighting to try to democratize a polity that is inherently unstable. If there are democratic elections, the result is not likely to be a liberal democracy, but rather one of the illiberal sort. Defeat would be a disaster, victory will be hard to define and unlikely to bring great reward. I agree with Christopher Hitchens that it is shameful to be wishing defeat on the US in Iraq in the hopes that this translates into defeat for Bush at home. I agree that we have to face the fact that we are committed in Iraq now and cannot afford to talk about the past as though turning back the clock were an option. I am no fan of Kerry. Despite all of this, I don't want to hand another four years to a man who brought us unnecessarily into this predicament at such great cost and who waged this war so incompetently. This, combined with the irresponsible economic policy that you have also criticized, have convinced me to cast my vote for Kerry. We cannot afford to dwell on the past at the expense of engaging with the present as it is. But neither can we forget past lapses of judgment and hope that they will not occur again.

Tyrone Slothrop 09-30-2004 03:02 PM

Speaking of MENSA
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
So she stuck with the tax bill on that Pontiac, huh?
Actually, my standing policy is to accept a new Pontiac from anyone who wants to give me one.

taxwonk 09-30-2004 03:05 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
OK, so showing that yuppies come back when they aren't subject to concentrated public housing and section 8 goes against what I'm saying how? Meantime, the tax base of the south suburbs is steadily dropping as section 8 concentrations move in. Where haven't we seen that before? But its all just a coincidence, because some people just want a one acre lot (with no poor people within 10 miles).
Is it possible that the tax base has been dropping because the section 8 housing has a lowr value?

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 09-30-2004 03:05 PM

Speaking of MENSA
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Actually, my standing policy is to accept a new Pontiac from anyone who wants to give me one.
Well, they do come with nice, solid bumpers.

Tyrone Slothrop 09-30-2004 03:10 PM

Speaking of MENSA
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Well, they do come with nice, solid bumpers.
I'm really looking for bumpers that can take repeated blows, though. Does Pontiac make durable bumpers?

Tyrone Slothrop 09-30-2004 03:11 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
Is it possible that the tax base has been dropping because the section 8 housing has a lowr value?
Is it possible that Section 8 vouchers don't pay for much, and can only cover housing in the worst neighborhoods?

Say_hello_for_me 09-30-2004 03:16 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
Is it possible that the tax base has been dropping because the section 8 housing has a lowr value?
That would be a great theory, but there are like 50 different communities out there (basically due South), and they are all slowly slipping under as the subsidies on Chicago's south side are sent a-packin. U of C/Hyde Park? Sorta, no. I lived all over Chicago at one time or another. My parents were the last white folks on their block. The experience of fleeing was common, in fact pervasive.

Sorry if you misunderstand the racial overtones to this. I'm not saying that you were the first guy to pack up when a black family moved onto your block (South Shore used to be Jewish, as did the area around Douglas Park). Nor the second. Or the third.

But at some point, in huge swaths of Chicago, whites who lived on the south side and the west side were between the first and the last. And I'm not saying any of y'all are any more guilty than me... though I once was an original gentrifier.

So if the proposition is acceptable to you and Sebby that section 8 would be okay (really, in some small measure) in your neighborhood or all others (and sure its okay in mine, just not 25%), than I feel like we are making progress here.

Great progress.

Hello

Shape Shifter 09-30-2004 03:19 PM

things proven today
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
That would be a great theory, but there are like 50 different communities out there (basically due South), and they are all slowly slipping under as the subsidies on Chicago's south side are sent a-packin. U of C/Hyde Park? Sorta, no. I lived all over Chicago at one time or another. My parents were the last white folks on their block. The experience of fleeing was common, in fact pervasive.

Sorry if you misunderstand the racial overtones to this. I'm not saying that you were the first guy to pack up when a black family moved onto your block (South Shore used to be Jewish, as did the area around Douglas Park). Nor the second. Or the third.

But at some point, in huge swaths of Chicago, whites who lived on the south side and the west side were between the first and the last. And I'm not saying any of y'all are any more guilty than me... though I once was an original gentrifier.

So if the proposition is acceptable to you and Sebby that section 8 would be okay (really, in some small measure) in your neighborhood or all others (and sure its okay in mine, just not 25%), than I feel like we are making progress here.

Great progress.

Hello
You are assuming facts not in evidence about wonk. How are you so sure he's white?

sgtclub 09-30-2004 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
He said "more likeable" not "likeable."

Nixon v. Kennedy = Kennedy
Nixon v. Humphrey or McGovern=Nixon
Exactly. Although one has to worry if Hank is the one doing interpretations for you. No offense Hank.

Secret_Agent_Man 09-30-2004 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Agree. The Dems need a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' muthafuckas. Have they ever had one? The Republicans have plenty.*

*but that's b/c they're always so angry. Old angry bitter white men telling the neighbor kids to "STAY OFF MY LAWN" while shaking their fists.
Poor form to take shots at Baggins while he's not around.

S_A_M

Tyrone Slothrop 09-30-2004 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Exactly. Although one has to worry if Hank is the one doing interpretations for you. No offense Hank.
The mind boggles at the thought that Nixon was more likeable than Humphrey or McGovern. Or that Johnson was more likeable than Goldwater. And I'm not sure that I buy that Ford and Dukakis weren't more likable than Carter and Bush. But in the hazy fog after an election, it's easy to decide that the person who won was bound to won because they were more popular, or something.


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