Have Fun, RT
 

A pragmatist does not necessarily take the path of least resistance. A pragmatist is someone who recognizes reality and takes the path with the best chance of accomplishing the goal.

It is at least an open question as to whether saying:

"Fuck you and what you believe, you are a savage! We despise you!"

is really the best way to "civilize" folks, help their society evolve, and change their minds.

By way of comparison, the many images of Arabs burning the American flag and chanting 'Death to America!" haven't done much to change U.S. policy towards the countries in question and/or win the hearts and minds of the American people.

S_A_M

P.S. I just heard on NPR that the President of Iran has announced that he is commissioning a contest for the publication of political cartoons on the Holocaust. It won't be all that much worse that the standard stuff in many popular Arab papers, but at least you know you're in good company.

Sorry, S.A.M. You are way out of line and are pretty much grabbing for air, here. I never mentioned ANYTHING about my personal beliefs about the Christian symbol artwork. In our country, there was a debate about whether they were "art" (mostly, and importantly, in the context of whether our taxpayers money should be used for it.) Many found their artistic nature questionable and some were offended. As someone who finds Goetse hilarious, I was certainly not offended by them. In fact, I saw the pee one and, in context, thought it conveyed a powerful message that was personal to the artist. You must be confusing my lambasting of the orange drapes. Because I like my art, and especially my photography, extreme, and more than likely, I'll find it artistic. From pee crosses to gay erotica ala Mapplethorpe.

So leave me out of your schtick please. I am a consistent social liberal and massive defender of freedom of speech. (I just didn't like the drapes).

Have Fun, RT
 

May I take your failure to address the substance of the comment as an admission that I'm mainly correct?

I mean, just cause I happen to agree with that horse's ass doesn't mean I'm wrong, does it?

Or do you think its not a good idea to civilize the Muslim World? Are you in favor of allowing them to remain regressive?

Have Fun, RT
 

Using a soft touch with Radical Islam is pointless. That cartoon is not pissing on their beliefs. It is merely an incendiary piece of art which rational, sensible, civilized people can discuss. Islamists are free to boycott and complain. They are not free to issue fatwas demanding the cartoonists' assassination, burn cars or bomb embassies. That is not a civilized response.

We must condition these brutes by repeatedly forcing them to deal with a free press. I don't advocate telling them their religion is shit. I advocate allowing it to be mocked in the press the same way Christianity and Judaism are mocked. Islam isn't some "special" religion whose adherents are allowed to bully the press into submission. They need to learn to take their lumps the same way the rest of the civilized Jews, Christians and Atheists do.

Simply put, we need to force Islam to get over itself. Its not that fucking important, and it should not be such a damned cancer on so many governments. These people need to learn to keep their goddamned religion at home. They need a separation of church and state. Fuck, even Israel observes a separation of church and state, and its the homeland of a fucking religion! Why do the Muslims always get a pass to act like barbarians? Is it soft bigotry of low expactations? Is it a handicapping for the perpetual underdog?

Fuck Islam's heightened sensitivities. They should be heldto the same standards as the rest of us, and fuck you if you're going to offer me some apologist claptrap excuses for why we should kiss their asses.

Sebby Was Right - Keep Driving Those SUVs
 

Mod response to email
 

Do you think that is a cautionary deterrent or an incentive for Ty?

More seriously, for the Board's information, it has come to my attention, via reasonably reliable sources, that the "sock" that requested the deletions was in cahoots, sts, with the sock who was posting, in effort to (i) rouse me from retirement; and/or (ii) create a board commotion. As such and per the input of the Board community that I have received to date, there will be no deletions, the cartoons will stand as a statement to the world that this a free and equitable forum of ideas, and I will be going back into retirement, where the drinks start flowing by noon.

[Garcon, another pina colada por favor.]

Stay well and think of me fondly in my absence.

Hasta luego,

Penske

Have Fun, RT
 

Nope.

Nope.

I don't think that one nation, culture, or religion can really "civilize" another. (That term is itself very subjective, isn't it?) Anyhow, that decision has to come from within, and may be affected by outside pressures, but can't ultimately be forced.

Thus, I think that there is no issue of "allowing" them to remain regressive. They don't need our permission, and we can only stop it by: (a) some kind of policy of gradual change with continuing, "constructive engagement" -- like the policy the GOP and RR claimed it pursued with South Africa; or (b) invading the nation, subduing the people, changing the laws, and enforcing compliance for generations.

Both of these are long term projects, and I don't think the second method would get the job done in the long term.

S_A_M

Have Fun, RT
 

(a) In this country, they are held to the same standards as everyone else. No riots here.

(b) There is a difference between kissing someone's ass and not spitting on someone (especially after they say -- "don't spit on me.").

As for the rest of it, "Sebby, I'm not from Hollywood and I'm not going to fuck your mouth." So give it a rest.

S_A_M

While I do not necessarily believe that free speech for its own sake is always a virtue (witness the Nazis marching in Skokie, those of you old enough to remember that), I do think that a little bit of "fuck you" speech is every bit as valid as any other form of speech. It promotes as much, if not more, public discourse about controversial topics.

Mod response to email
 

I don't know why you are posting here now in the first place. McCloskey needs an apartment, an office, some telephone lines, a P.O. Box, a dry cleaner, some nubile young volunteers - you must have a to-do list a mile long.

Have Fun, RT
 

Word! I'm so glad you weighed in on the side of reason Sebestian. I have ignored a lot of yours posts since Infirmation.com days but glad to see you still have it and are speaking out against this rubbish. If Islam wants respect in the world community then they have to progress to at least an 18th century level or else they can suck it. Hard.

Any rationale person who sees these cartoons knows that they are nothing but fodder for compassionate humanistic intellectual discourse, and even at that they are no big deal, at least not to a free person with a progressive multicultural mind who believes in free speech.

As someone who doodles now and again for fun, I will offer another cartoon that will attempt to be a representation of the prophet's true life, or at least one moment in it, that being, an animated doodling of his jiggling 5o something year old ass as he schtupps his 9 year old bride Aisha! Although I don't want to publish kiddy porno so I will use a symbol for Aisha.



http://drawmohammed.com/albums/userp..._shariapig.jpg

Have Fun, RT
 

If I were a betting man, I'd say this sock was Slave.

Have Fun, RT
 

Exactly. I see this as a wonderful needed example of the danger of even "moderate" Islam. The overreaction of violence, burnings, deaths, death threats, etc. to these cartoons - http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/Mo_Cartoons.jpg - proves the point of the cartoonists; that Islam is the greatest threat to our way of life. Hopefully, European apologists will wake up and realize how even "moderate" Islam would govern if allowed to.

Funnily, I think the Iranian response - to have a contest for Holocaust-denying cartoons - is the best one yet. http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/...704032,00.html . Go for it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5.../hansenisl.jpg

Have Fun, RT
 

How much?

Have Fun, RT
 

2.