Ann Coulter
 

This is a tough issue but the part that makes me think that the "corrupt unsupported regime" is a line of Bull, is becaue it was used every time there was a communist anti-communist fight. South Koreas government was corrupt and authoritarian. So was Malaysia's. Yet both of these regimes turned their countrys into economic miracles.

If Chiange was such a corrupt and incompetant leader why did he do so well with Taiwan. If the communists were so supported in South Vietnam why did it spark one of the largest exoduses in world history.

I think the problem was that many people felt that a communist regime was better than an authoritarian, corrupt, pro business regime. They just didn't want to admit it.

None of us were there, but the fact that in every conflict the corrupt and lame government excuse was used everytime and it proved to be wrong in many cases shows that it probably was not all that valid.

Ann Coulter
 

I would guess he was pretty confident he was going to win.

For the record
 

When he talked to Bob Woodward for Plan Of Attack, he didn't exactly sound wracked by uncertainty.

Ann Coulter
 

And Germany lost World War I only because of the liberals and social democrats stabbed Germany in the back.

For the record
 

Translation:

That Ready to Die shit, it was aight, it was aight,
yunumsayin, that shit was aight, it was cool. But my shit is
more John Blaze than that! I got John Blaze shit. And they not
recognizing, they not sayin I recognize. And f**k is that, who
is you to be askin me questions, youknowhatI'msayin? Who is
you?


http://www.exodushosting.net/gallery...al_gangsta.jpg

50 Cent thinks the president is "incredible ... a gangsta." "I wanna meet George Bush, just shake his hand and tell him how much of me I see in him," 50 told GQ. If the rapper's felony conviction didn't prevent him from voting, 50 said he would have voted for Bush.


Penske-style post!TM

For the record
 

Ty - let it go. This is just absurd. War is high risk. It always is and everyone in the Bush administration knew it. Of course they put on the face of them being determined and having no doubt but that is for the troops and morale. You can't go into war looking unsure about yourself.

To look back afterwards and to say Bush knew it was going to be OK is just patently ridiculous. The war in Iraq was a huge risk.

It is just conventional wisdom that doing things with uncertain outcomes before an election is stupid and risky politics. There is nothing more uncertain and high risk than war.

Bush took a massive risk and to question that is akin to questioning whether or not Elvis is dead.

For the record
 

They had just taken over the Senate in a mid-term election. Maybe not unprecedented, but very unusual. If all Bush was is politics, to roll the dice of a war for politics right after such a huge win is dumb. As with most of their dogma it is just contradictory- the evil political genius Rove does something reallly dumb politically.

Maybe the problem is the people who are dem here are dumb and can't remember anything beyond their current rant. It does fit with all the evidence- and that makes it a strong theory in SCIENCE!

Ann Coulter
 

Are you really comparing Germany in WWI to the United States in the Vietnam war? Ty has left the building and reality.

Let's see: Germany at the end of WWI was outgunned, outmanned and out of money. The US at the end of the Vietnam war outgunned, outmanned and infinitely out bankrolled North Vietnam.

In fact you have just shown us when the stab in the back argument is absurd and when it is relevent. In WWI it was absurd, but since the US involvement in Vietnam was almost the complete opposite of the German situation in WWI, that must mean that the stab in the back argument fits perfectly for the US situation in Vietnam.

Thanks for clearing that up.

For the record
 

Where the #%$&@! is Penske?

For the record
 

I AM PENSKE!

For the record
 

No! I AM PENSKE!

For the record
 

For the record
 

NO! NO! I AM PENSKE!

For the Record
 

Me too.
http://www.hrrelocation.com/logo.jpg

Ann Coulter
 

No. My point was somewhat more subtle than that.

Thanks for asking.

eta: I'm not Penske, but I had a 2002 Crocodilo cab from Argentina tonight, courtesy of Paul Hobbs, who imported it.

Ann Coulter
 

Most people on this board have that sock on ignore. when you quote it you force us to read it, or to put your sock on ignore, DO NOT QUOTE THAT SOCK UNLESS really REALLY NECESSARY. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION.

Ann Coulter
 

Translation: Hank misses Paigow. *sniff*

Ann Coulter
 

Actually - no it wasn't.

Big Effin' Mess
 

"I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood--unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn. . . ."

"Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory."

Joe Lieberman

Ann Coulter
 

I probably should STP, but . . .

Ortega and the Sandinistas were really out of touch the sentiment of a majority of Nicaraguans -- especially those in rural areas. They were stunned when they lost the elections, absolutely shocked. (As contemporaneous coverage indicated.)

Free elections are great when you think you'll win. But Ortega was always (and still is) a reluctant democrat at best. In my view, though, still far morally superior to Somoza and his ilk.

[eta: Of course, it was our continued funding of an armed resistance (and general enmity) which brought Ortega to that decision, but he would not have agreed if they didn't think they'd win.]

S_A_M

Big Effin' Mess
 

Too late. Bush is expected to announce a near-heresy and begin drawing 'em down prior to the 2006 elections. Why does he hate America so?

• Brace yourself for a mind-bog of sheer cynicism. The discombobulation begins Wednesday, when President George W. Bush is expected to proclaim, in a major speech at the U.S. Naval Academy, that the Iraqi security forces—which only a few months ago were said to have just one battalion capable of fighting on its own—have suddenly made uncanny progress in combat readiness. Expect soon after (if not during the speech itself) the thing that Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have, just this month, denounced as near-treason—a timetable for withdrawal of American troops.
  
  And so it appears (assuming the forecasts about the speech are true) that the White House is as cynical about this war as its cynical critics have charged it with being. For several months now, many of these critics have predicted that, once the Iraqis passed their constitution and elected a new government, President Bush would declare his mission complete and begin to pull out—this, despite his public pledge to "stay the course" until the insurgents were defeated.
  
  This theory explains Bush's insistence that the Iraqis draft and ratify the constitution on schedule—even though the rush resulted in a seriously flawed document that's more likely to fracture the country than to unite it. For if the pullout can get under way in the opening weeks of 2006, then the war might be nullified as an issue by the time of our own elections.
  
  The political beauty of this scenario is that, even if Iraq remains mired in chaos or seems to be hurtling toward civil war, nobody in Congress is going to call for a halt, much less a reversal, of the withdrawal. The Republicans will fall in line; many of them have been nervous that the war's perpetuation, with its rising toll and dim horizons, might cost them their seats. And who among the Democrats will choose to outflank Bush on his right wing and advocate—as some were doing not so long ago—keeping the troops in Iraq for another five or 10 years or even boosting their numbers. (The question is so rhetorical, it doesn't warrant a question mark.)
  
  In short, Bush could pull a win-win-win out of this shift. He could pre-empt the Democrats' main line of attack against his administration, stave off the prospect of (from the GOP's perspective) disastrous elections in 2006 and '08, and, as a result, bolster his presidency's otherwise dwindling authority within his own party and among the general population.
  
  The signs are clear, in any case, that a substantial withdrawal—or redeployment—is at hand. Top U.S. military officers have been privately warning for some time that current troop levels in Iraq cannot be sustained for another year or two without straining the Army to the breaking point. Rep. John Murtha's agenda-altering Nov. 17 call for an immediate redeployment was not only a genuine cri de coeur but also, quite explicitly, a public assertion of the military's institutional interests—and an acknowledgment of Congress' electoral interests.
  
  Murtha wasn't merely advocating redeployment; he was practically announcing it. As he told Tim Russert on the Nov. 20 Meet the Press, "There's nobody that talks to people in the Pentagon more than I do. … We're going to be out of there very quickly, and it's going to be close to the plan that I'm presenting right now."

Slate

Big Effin' Mess
 

You've not seen the constantly-updated progress reports of the Iraqi brigades certified as ready to control over the past five months? You've assumed that we would keep the same numbers there forever?

Or, are you just now catching the new Kos-spin (that's a nice word for "lie", or, in NewDemSpeak, "reframing the debate") that such a gradual move is some sort of reaction to Murtha's comments? Funny how that new 70% poll caused such a sea change in Dem strategy, innit? (Picture an astonished Sally Field standing on a table, saying "They hate me! They really hate me!")

If nothing else, it's always fun to watch you guys rewriting histories and philosophies to match what happened last week. I give it three weeks before the replacement for "Bush Lied!" becomes something like "Bush Cuts and Runs!" It may be fun for you, but it's playing hell with the two-party system. You're gonna leave us with . . . what? . . . Nader?

Big Effin' Mess
 

No. Since you bring it up, how many are there now?


ETA:

I don't read Kos, FWIW.

I was thinking more about the response to Murtha. Not that this is a reaction to it, but if this prediction of Bush's address is accurate, why the response wasn't different in the first place.

Why wasn't the GOP response -- instead parsing about whether he was a coward vs. simply advocating a cowardly route, because goddammit, we HAVE to stay, that's what patriots do -- that Murtha's response was factually incorrect? "Look, (a) things are going great!, and (b) look at the progress we've made! We're ready to go home!"

Ann Coulter
 

I understand. But we aren't 18 any more. And we have a world of experience teaching us that there are far more shades of grey than black or white.

We could have. Just as we could be the last man standing in Iraq, and Syria, and the Sudan, and Liberia, and Chechnya.... But are we willing to keep sending our sins and daughters to die until we kill them all? And once we've killed them all, what have we left?

"We had to destroy the village to save it" doesn't sound any better echoing over the last three decades.

Big Effin' Mess
 

Um, do you not see a difference between "we can't win, we need to leave immediately" (his words, IIRC), and "we'll start pulling back some troops starting in 2006"? Cuz, like, I do, but then, I was sort of a hard science major in college.

Ann Coulter
 

Yeah, but that can't be an excuse to drop at least the aspirational level. We do make compromises - we let practicality affect how we pursue our moral choices - but the moral choices remain the primary driver.

Freudian?

Big Effin' Mess
 

No shit. That's what the "factually incorrect" part of my post was about.

By the way, how many Iraqi brigades have been certified recently?

Big Effin' Mess
 

What, you want me to google it for the latest figures for you?

Ann Coulter
 

Sometimes a cigar is just a step on the road to a heart attack.

Big Effin' Mess
 

Huh. Your post implied that you've seen the constantly updated reports of improvement, that ANY idiot would have, and that my not having seen them correlated strongly with a Kosian desire to revise history.

Therefore, I thought you'd know them off the top of your head.

Big Effin' Mess
 

I thought he would have learned them in his hard science classes.

Big Effin' Mess
 

Ah. If I've seen them updated constantly, and read them as they came out, I must have memorized them.

I see.

I cannot live up to your exemplary standards. I barely keep my kids' names straight.

(And, no, that doesn't mean I've named them Bruce and Elton.)

Big Effin' Mess
 

Understood, but IIRC the last number I heard was "1." I didn't know a matrix of some sort was involved.

Big Effin' Mess
 

Over the summer, I saw predictions that there would be enough certified by December for us to start pulling back. Sounds like they are slightly behind schedule, but good news nonetheless.

Big Effin' Mess
 

Math is hard.

Big Effin' Mess
 

A few years ago, I saw predictions that our troops would be greeted by children with garlands of flowers, and that hostilities certainly would not last six months. Both of those are also slightly behind schedule, but would be good news nonetheless.

Big Effin' Mess
 

From More Iraqi battalions 'in the lead' against rebels

Doing the math, it looks as if 35 or so battalions have "taken the lead" in the past month. Can a Bush-hating liberal like yourself acknowledge that this fivefold improvement is a positive development?

Big Effin' Mess
 

to who? not to these guys.

I've always thought one of the most hopeful things that does get through the MSM reports had to do with bombings.

They frequently bomb recruiting centers for the police or army, and when they do- THERE ARE LINES OF RECRUITS.

Big Effin' Mess
 

Well, ya'all could either go to the MNF web site (which I can't get into right now), or read this timely article with the new weekly progress report.

I guess I can understand how ya'all wouldn't run into these weekly reports in your chosen venues. They're good news, after all.

Big Effin' Mess
 

Of course. They get free weapons.



Killings Linked to Shiite Squads in Iraqi Police Force
With loyalties to banned paramilitary groups, the fighters have kidnapped, tortured and slain Sunnis, officials and witnesses say.

By Solomon Moore, Times Staff Writer


BAGHDAD — Shiite Muslim militia members have infiltrated Iraq's police force and are carrying out sectarian killings under the color of law, according to documents and scores of interviews.

The abuses raise the specter of organized retaliation to attacks by Sunni-led insurgents that have killed thousands of Shiites, who endured decades of subjugation under Saddam Hussein.

And they undermine the U.S. effort to stabilize the nation, and train and equip Iraq's security forces — the Bush administration's key prerequisites for the eventual withdrawal of American troops.

In recent months, hundreds of bodies have been discovered in rivers, garbage dumps, sewage treatment facilities and alongside roads and in desert ravines. Many of them are thought to be victims of Sunni insurgents, who are known to target Shiite civilians and Iraqi security forces, and even Sunni Arabs believed to be collaborating with U.S. forces or the Iraqi government. But increasingly, the Shiite militias operating within the national police force are also suspected of committing atrocities.

The Baghdad morgue reports that dozens of bodies arrive at the same time on a weekly basis, including scores of corpses with wrists bound by police handcuffs.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,6089453.story