Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Really? When did he say that?

S_A_M

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

According to the reporter who quoted Carter as saying that during a press conference held by Tony Snow, it was "during Carter's presidency." Snow said he didn't know whether Carter still held that "old opinion" and sort of told the guy to fuck off.

When the Cold War got a little warmer
 

You are aware that had Nixon not been crippled by Watergate (and, not coincidentally, blind, stinking drunk) during the Yom Kippur War in 1973 that the C-130s filled with TOW missles and F-4 parts never would have been sent to Israel, right? And that Sadat would be remembered today as the man who defeated Israel militarily instead of as the matyred peacemaker?

Granted, Haig and Kissinger almost started WWIII as a result, but still. Nixon was more than a mere private anti-Semite.

When the Cold War got a little warmer
 

This is all pretty accurate, except the drunk part.

Nixon only drank in Oliver Stone movies.

Speaking of the Carter Administration.
 

And in Kissinger's memoirs.

Anyway, because I love you (in a Not Gay way, NTTAWWT):

Yanks back from the brink?
Red Sox fans thinking three words:
Bucky Fucking Dent.

When the Cold War got a little warmer
 

so you think that if he wasn't getting impeached he would have done something that would have gotten him impeached? what "woulda happened" is not even on par with what did happen. What I would have done, if only I had the chance is really easy to talk about, not so easy to do sometimes.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Oh, that makes sense then -- even aside from the traditional buddying up to dictators all U.S. Presidents did during the Cold War -- that was an infinitely more credible view of Mugabe 30 years ago (back when he was still a "revolutionary leader" and Zimbabwe was mostly democratic and had hope) than it would be today.

S_A_M

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Who cares if he isn't the only one who says stupid things. I call it when I see it. WTF?

Here we go again - why can't you just admit Carter made an idiotic comment today, just like he did in his book. So what if non-Democrats have also done stoopid stuff? That doesn't take away the assininess of Carter's statement.

Jimmy Carter can't have a Jewish problem because another former President had a Jewish problem? Your reasoning is a problem. (But if you're not an anti-semite, then it's probably not a Jewish problem).

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

No, you don't get it. Carter may have put it too bluntly for you, but he was right. We are "punishing" the Palis for their choice of Hamas. As we should. Carter, in his dotage, can spaek the truth, which is - you choose, you lose. We do "punish" and we should. He may think it wrong, but I say call a Hamas rose the stinkbomb that it is, _and_ a populace of Hamas supporters the car bomb that they are.

That said, the fact that our politicians have glad-handed these fucks is irrelevant. We have engaged in 50 years of failed support of our authoritarians, and, as a result, lost any credibility in world opinion when we try to support or dis-support any regime.

Our actions re Fatah are more of the same. Despite 50 years of contrary experience, we thought that we could sanction or embargo the people in the Gaza to popular revolt, and it worked as well as it did in Cuba, Russia, Vietnam, South Korea, etc. - i.e we created martyrs against the might of the U.S. in favor of our opponent. In contrast, with whom (of note) have we succeeded?

(Pre-emptively, Russia and its satelites do not count because: (1) we actually supported Russia to prevent revolt; (2) the people didn't revolt (other than wanting food), powerful internal sects of the government did; (3) said internal clamor for change was not due to a lack of goods or services brought on by U.S. policy; and (4) it wasn't due to our "spy" agents. Rather, our economic system simply beat theirs down. But it was not due to any machinations dreamed up in State or the Agency- they failed for 46 years. Markets and $$ defeated the Sovs. )

In sum, we ( the U.S., the Israelis, and the world) should "punish" the Palis as we "punished" the Iraqis, Libyans, Iranians, etc. because they elected these fucks. Carter may dislike it because he is anti-semitic, but (whether he is or is not), he is right that we are doing so, and we should.

The Pali problem was fomented by the Arab world, and I think the only solution for Israel is to seal its borders, and/or push all of them out of the West Bank and Gaza into Saudi Arabia and Syria. "You made them, you've inculcated them, shrug, you deal with them." I think that is the only way Israel exists in 50 years. If instead, they continue to want Palis to do their scut work, one of them will infiltrate a dirty bomb into Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, and that's it -because Israel is not the U.S. in that it could survive losing ine city.

But back to you, you need to get beyond the messenger and examine the message - President Carter is the only one telling the truth - for the wrong reasons, maybe, but still ...

When the Cold War got a little warmer
 

No. That's not what I said. What I said was that because Noxon was pre-occupied with Watergate issues, Kissinger and Haig handled the U.S. response to the attack by Egypt and Syria, and that they provided the immediate material support that Nixon was not inclined to give.

Before Watergate, Nixon wouldn't let Kissinger be involved in any significant way with Mideast issues -- one can debate why, but the fact is that it was the only area of foreign policy that he kept K out of. Instead, he worked with the Secretary of State, William Rogers. They formulated the Rogers Plan to try to end the so-called War of Attrition in 1970, and didn't object when Egypt moved SAM batteries into a demilitarized zone close to the Suez Canal. The Israelis did not consider Rogers or Nixon to be friendly.

Assuming that you are actually interested in this rather than merely trying be argumentative, take a look at Kissinger's memoirs, histories of the Nixon Administration, and of the Yom Kippur War.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Uh, I did. And you actually quoted me doing so. Was I not clear enough for you when I said that he can be an idiot and says stupid things?

No. I never said that he can't have a Jewish problem because Nixon had a Jewish problem. My point was that Nixon was not only arguably unfriendly to Israel, he was anti-Semitic -- as revealed in the tape recordings that still continue to dribble out of the archives.

I think that you and slave are trying to score partisan points by posting Carter's idiotic (there again -- happy?) comments, and so I think that pointing out the comments that recent Republican presidents have made about dictators, thugs, and despots is appropriate.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

if he was anti-semetic why would he help the Arabs?

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Uh, Less, Carter might be advocating a "push", but unlike you, he's thinking westward.

Cleopatra, Queen of Denial.
 

Well, duh. The Egyptians aren't Arabs. That also explains why he liked the Shah.

We interrupt this argument on Carter to bring you Maxim's feature of Women of the IDF. Shalom!

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Good, so Nixon was an anti-semite. As if that helps Carter out.

Exactly why discussions are going down hill on here. Anytime someone points out a blunder, they get jumped on if the blunderer is a dem. I have made fun of both parties here, including the link to video of W's gaffes. I voted for Gore first go round, voted for Dukakis way back, and my ticket is usually split. I am pro-choice, and basically far left on every social issue. I pretty much only post on here about national security issues and middle eastern foreign policy. So if Carter says something I think is fucked up (which he's done before, like in his book, causing the majority of his own advisory board members to resign) I'm calling a spade a spade and I don't give a flying fuck what tricky Dick said or did during Watergate. I didn't vote for him and if you say he's an anti-semite -- you aint gonna get any argument from me.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Like Less, I think what Carter said wasn't a gaffe or a blunder. But I am far more interested in talking about the policy questions involved than I am in talking about whatever anti-Semitism lies in Carter's heart, let alone whether other Presidents were anti-Semitic. Which is why my response to your post about Carter was to post something from someone else referring the "punishment" of the Palestinians.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

An ex-President should generally not say our country has done something horrible to some group of people- that would be my point. since, in the entire history of this country, there is only one ex-President who would do something like this, Diane approaches is limited to this old fuckhead.

that you all want to talk about something else is understandable, but if you actually engage on what the Reps want to talk about, instead of deflecting, maybe more would come back.

I don't dodge your issues, and when other Reps used to come here they always debated your points directly and fairly+.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Are you saying that Carter accurately described our policy in a way that was nevertheless unhelpful, that he mischaracterized our policy, or that he accurately described our policy in a way that was not unhelpful but the nevertheless violated standards of decorum applicable to ex-Presidents?

I don't think Diane cares so much about these standards of decorum. I think she objects to what Carter said for other reasons. But she can speak for herself.

And I didn't see anyone dodging issues. Some people like to talk about anti-Semitism more than I do.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

well, you and your blogs and me and Di and most everyone else has voiced subjective opinions about what our policy is/was/did. It's okay when it's you or me or less, hell, even the blogs everyone but you understands are just guys talking, but an ex-President should shut the fuck up if he can't say something neutral or positive on an issue of this import.

do you know 80% of the saudi public think Bush did 9-11? now you got Carter saying then he decided to fuck the Palis? ultimately what possible good comes to our country from his crap? what possible bad?

Romney's new idea: Put the "F" back in freedom.
 

Marc Ambinder tells us about a new proposal Romney's announcing in Colorado today, as part of his comprehensive plan for Winning the War on Terror. Romney quote:

• I believe America must establish a Special Partnership Force, comprised or Army Special Forces personnel and Intelligence personnel. This force would work hand-in-glove with local host governments. Together, in partnership, they would seek to target and separate terrorists from the local population, and to disrupt and defeat them. They would have the authority to call in all elements of civil assistance and humanitarian aid. And, where they felt it was necessary, theycould call in delta and SEAL resources.

I'm sure there are good ideas in that plan, but I can't stop thinking about puppets and large armaments.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...am_america.jpg

Gattigap

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Honesty, credibility, etc. The world knows anyway, and we don't seem afraid to admit when we "punish" other countries in George's "Axis of Evil." Why should we dissemble (poorly) only when it comes to the Palis, who elected (unlike North Koreans, etc.) Hamas? Why are truthful statements "idiotic?" If a former President (wacky as he may be) can't say that the Emperor is wearing no clothes, who can or should?

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

See Less's post: We did decide to screw the Palestinians, more or less. Reasonable people can differ about whether it was a wise policy, but thinking that the Arab world won't figure it out if our ex-Presidents stay mum doesn't make much sense.

eta: stp

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

I don't care about "standards of decorum" like which leader flubbed a bow/curtesy or that kind of gaffe. It's the idea that our ex President is suggesting the U.S. (in cohort with the Zionists) is out to get the Palis. One can disagree about what the U.S. does to deter terrorism (whether it be cutting off funding to terrorist organizations) and such but that's what it is -- the U.S. trying to do something about the never-ending conflict there and, now, attacks on our own soil (ostensibly) because of the Israel/Palestine conflict. If someone thinks the U.S. is fucking up this mission, I'm fine with that -- there are a billion people out there claiming the U.S. has "now radicalized Muslims" by invading Iraq. But to suggest the U.S. isn't trying to deter terrorism (by not supporting terrorist leaders/organizations voted into power) and that, instead, it is out to get Palis as some sort of revenge or otherwise...is irresponsible. He didn't say "I don't agree with the U.S. government's approach to the new leader". He claimed the U.S. joined up with Israel with the intention to just punish these people. Shocking. And dangerous.

You say you want to talk about things of more "substance" and not decorum? Well, I think Carter's words express the big (substantive) question, Ty -- how should our government approach blood that is shed (including our's) in order to get Jews out of Israel/Palestine, or in the name of Allah against the evil U.S. empire. Carter suggests we aren't trying to stop bloodshed, but simply punishing people for voting a certain way. He has also said (infamously and I'm sure you read this):

Even Carter has admitted the poor choice of words here. There's plenty of similar "gaffes" the man has made if you want to call them that. But I think these "gaffes" reflect his instinctive views about terrorists blowing up babies to get what they want out of Israel. His tap on the hand to baby killers is "you guys need to express louder to your victims that you'll stop if they do A, B and C; only then will your baby killing be effective." It's the old "how much do we accede" to terrorists issue - who is acceding, who isn't, etc.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

If that's the case, you are more interested than talking about it than Carter, who has refused to debate anything in his book on the merits...with about anyone. Any offer of open debate has been categorically rebuffed.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

I am more interested in talking about the policy questions involved than I am in talking about whatever lies in Carter's heart. I would find your condemnation of the man more interesting if you didn't have essentially the same reaction to every Democratic politician.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Any nickel or dime we give to Israel is perceived by the entire Arab world as "screwing the Palis" - if not screwing all of Islam - so I'm not really sure that this matters.

What does matter, is that Carter blatantly lies about history and continuously defends murderous rabble while simulataneously placing blame for all of the world's ills on the US and Israel.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

I like Truman.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Yes, that's Hank's issue.

Come now, that's not what he said. A judge who sentences ("punishes") a defendant is not necessarily out to get the defendant.

Not "revenge or otherwise." The U.S. policy was to try to ratchet up the pain experienced by Palestinians in the hopes of undermining support for Hamas. Not revenge. It was forward-looking. I happen to think it was misguided, but that's what they were thinking.

No, he was talking about the way in which we were trying to pursue peace in the Middle East. The question is, what can be done to undermine Hamas and support Fatah -- which I assume you would agree is better for us and Israel, on balance, which is not to say that Fatah is a bunch of angels. Whatever the preferences of most Palestinians, Fatah has been chased from Gaza.

It sounds to me like a poor choice of words, and I have a hard time believing that he thinks it's OK for suicide bombings to continue until then.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

... every living Democratic politician.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

If that were true, it might not matter. Alternatively, maybe some portions of the Arab world can distinguish between degrees of "screwing the Palis."

I am against blatant lies about history and the defense of murderous rabbles, and also placing blame for all of the world's ills on the US and Israel.

While I expected someone to make the leap that Carter was blaming the US for what's just happened in Gaza, I didn't expect it to take so long.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

What did he say about Mugabe?

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

I like Zell Miller

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Not much of leap, given his writings.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Exactly.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Now tell me how many Republicans you like.

For that matter, ask me. I currently can name only about 4.

Rogue Ex Presidents
 

Counting yourself?

Rogue Ex Admins
 

I consider myself a Humanist.

Rogue Ex Admins
 

A compassionate, multicultural one?