LawTalkers - General discussion

Even then, I'm suspicious of a complicated financial product that relies on tax-favored status of deposits and withdrawals, combined with actuarial calculations, in order to be more attractive than standard investment in a 401(k), IRA, 529, or other more standard savings vehicles.

Because my retirement is effectively fully funded, and people in my line of work are at risk of being poor as churchmice during their working years and having an embarassment of riches in retirement, those other investment vehicles are not as attractive, with the possible exception of the 529 plan.

When I called it a narrow gate, I was talking about the fact that the tax benefits are lost if you spend the cash on anything other than education. A VUL has the advantage of the feds not caring what you spend it on, if you need to access the cash. But my mind isn't made up, which is why I've asked y'all.

ltl/fb

11-08-2007 12:16 PM

Variable universal life insurance.

Quote:

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
I've seen them used in certain cases, but not considered them personally.

If you're buying the insurance anyways and want to build in some tax arbitrage, why not? The problems are that the folks selling them to you are usually not the most trustworthy, the products are often designed with multiple levels of fee and cost skims, and there are usually investment restrictions in these policies as well.

So, I've seen multi-million dollar policies purchased as part of an executive deferred comp strategy, where the deal could bear the freight for kicking all the tires (or someone else could pick up the tab) and where you're generally dealing with a higher class of insurance salesman slime. I'd be pretty hesitant to buy a policy for a million or less from the regular slime.

Get fringie and gwinky to weigh in.

Thank god, I no longer do executive comp, and even when I did, it wasn't our group who dealt with that bullshit crap, it was (I think) the Finance Dept.

I fucking loathe executive comp schemes. Just throw cash at them and let them figure out how to duck taxes (and bear the liability for doing it). They get all pissy when they drive the company into bankruptcy and then their executive comp, including comp they deferred, goes bye-bye. Fucking Enron.

Hank Chinaski

11-08-2007 12:19 PM

Variable universal life insurance.

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Thank god, I no longer do executive comp, and even when I did, it wasn't our group who dealt with that bullshit crap, it was (I think) the Finance Dept.

I fucking loathe executive comp schemes. Just throw cash at them and let them figure out how to duck taxes (and bear the liability for doing it). They get all pissy when they drive the company into bankruptcy and then their executive comp, including comp they deferred, goes bye-bye. Fucking Enron.

I think Atticus is looking for household advice, not a golden parachute, but i may be wrong.

ltl/fb

11-08-2007 12:44 PM

Variable universal life insurance.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I think Atticus is looking for household advice, not a golden parachute, but i may be wrong.

G3 suggested he ask benefit people b/c of executive comp arrangements. I am noting that I never did life-insurance-y ones and using it as a jumping off point.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

11-08-2007 05:00 PM

Variable universal life insurance.

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
G3 suggested he ask benefit people b/c of executive comp arrangements. I am noting that I never did life-insurance-y ones and using it as a jumping off point.

The life insuranc-y ones I have seen (and the benefits folks have arranged them) lead me to support your perspective. But I thought you might have had the pleasure of experiencing a nice complicated insurance wrapper scheme.

The wrapper schemes I've seen have been great for the lawyers and accountants, really, really tremendous for the insurance guys, and OK for the executives.

dtb	11-12-2007 11:52 AM

Variable universal life insurance.

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Oh, snap!

Game, Set and Match.

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Because my retirement is effectively fully funded, and people in my line of work are at risk of being poor as churchmice during their working years and having an embarassment of riches in retirement, those other investment vehicles are not as attractive, with the possible exception of the 529 plan.

If your retirement is fully funded, why are you working? Retire, already!

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

11-12-2007 03:48 PM

Variable universal life insurance.

Quote:

Originally posted by dtb

If your retirement is fully funded, why are you working? Retire, already!

I assume by "fully funded" he means "if I manage not to get fired over the next 30 years" and therefore gets the full pension/retirement benefit at age 65 or so.

tmdiva

11-16-2007 02:43 AM

Permanent Birth Control

Anyone already taken this step? We're currently considering our options.

tm

Secret_Agent_Man

11-17-2007 03:21 AM

Variable universal life insurance.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
My sense of them is that they are suited principally for someone who is rich enough to get his financial advice from a paid advisor not an internet chat board.

Even then, I'm suspicious of a complicated financial product that relies on tax-favored status of deposits and withdrawals, combined with actuarial calculations, in order to be more attractive than standard investment in a 401(k), IRA, 529, or other more standard savings vehicles.

I have a group VUL though my firm, but I had one hell of a time understanding how it worked. (Also have separate term life policy.)

It performed fairly well, but once I got a semi-real investment advisor he got me to stop contributing on the premise that it was in some sense duplicative of my 401k and I needed to start doing other things with the money -- either that or I was doing lots for retirement at 65+, but not enough for anything before 65.

Virginia has a nice 529 plan we're using.

S_A_M

ltl/fb

11-17-2007 03:25 AM

Permanent Birth Control

Quote:

Originally posted by tmdiva
Anyone already taken this step? We're currently considering our options.

tm

My (chaste, married) sister and I had a talking-at-cross-purposes over a guy's (her husband's) willingness to have a vasectomy, and guys in general (my, uh, friends) willingness to use condoms. I would not say this except (a) I am drunk and sad/angry and (b) no one has responded yet. On a personal level I am all for fewer babies, but I realize not everyone shares this feeling, and I more or less respect that.

taxwonk

11-17-2007 12:43 PM

Variable universal life insurance.

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Oh, snap!

Because my retirement is effectively fully funded, and people in my line of work are at risk of being poor as churchmice during their working years and having an embarassment of riches in retirement, those other investment vehicles are not as attractive, with the possible exception of the 529 plan.

When I called it a narrow gate, I was talking about the fact that the tax benefits are lost if you spend the cash on anything other than education. A VUL has the advantage of the feds not caring what you spend it on, if you need to access the cash. But my mind isn't made up, which is why I've asked y'all.

If you are sure you're going to hold it for at least 15 or 20 years, and you carefully review the costs and fees, a policy from a good company will let you have considerable choice in investments. If you're maxed out on other tax-deferred products, what you need to do is compare the cost of taxable investements plus term life against the premiums on the VUL. Bear in mind that your entire first year premium is commission to the agent.

taxwonk

11-17-2007 12:48 PM

Permanent Birth Control

Quote:

Originally posted by tmdiva
Anyone already taken this step? We're currently considering our options.

tm

My wife and I have stopped having sex. It's worked pretty well for us. It does have certain interpersonal side effects, though.

Hank Chinaski

11-17-2007 01:00 PM

Permanent Birth Control

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
My (chaste, married) sister and I had a talking-at-cross-purposes over a guy's (her husband's) willingness to have a vasectomy, and guys in general (my, uh, friends) willingness to use condoms. I would not say this except (a) I am drunk and sad/angry and (b) no one has responded yet. On a personal level I am all for fewer babies, but I realize not everyone shares this feeling, and I more or less respect that.

EARTH TO FRINGEY!!!!

You "more or less" respect that some people want to have kids? This is the parents' board for goodness sakes. If you continue to post here, I must insist that you respect the members of this community. It is tough enough for those of us who want to help, to get Atticus' finances in order, or help Alex pick out a car seat.

And for that matter, vasectomies are very much inappropriate for the parents' board, now that i think about it.

Atticus Grinch

11-17-2007 03:37 PM

Permanent Birth Control

Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
My wife and I have stopped having sex. It's worked pretty well for us.

Jesus H. Christ -- not having sex with your wife is not an effective form of birth control and never has been.

Atticus Grinch

11-17-2007 03:39 PM

Variable universal life insurance.

Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
If you are sure you're going to hold it for at least 15 or 20 years, and you carefully review the costs and fees, a policy from a good company will let you have considerable choice in investments. If you're maxed out on other tax-deferred products, what you need to do is compare the cost of taxable investements plus term life against the premiums on the VUL. Bear in mind that your entire first year premium is commission to the agent.

Thanks. Last question on this, I swear. Would it have been illegal for him to have picked up the fucking check for lunch?

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