Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

You are joking right? Does your right as a taxpayer entitle you to know of every covert operation done by the US government? Are you entitled to know the names of every undercover operative for the FBI and to know exactly what they are doing?

This plan is a good plan as long as it doesn't leak. Now that it has leaked the opposition will claim that every pro US article the newspapers was paid for by the US government. It was a good plan only if it stayed a secret.

So again, I ask you, what possible good did it do our country for the LA Times to release this story.

Big Effin' Mess
 

If I were more premedicated, I would probably be entertained enough by work to not have to post.

But you'd still be ugly and a troll.

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

You just expected me to assume you were reporting it correctly?


At least we agree on something.

Because the LA times messed up a hearts and mind mission by the US military. Thus giving the enemy ammunition in their propaganda war.



Are you saying you can't tell the difference between the US Government operating a propaganda campaign in a foreign country and paying for newspaper articles domstically?

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

No, I expected you to pay attention to the fact that I didn't post it. Shifter did.

In your mind, is there a dividing line for media to make a decision to report or not report on US propaganda? Is the US media to decline to report on this at alll?

No. Actually, Spanky, that's why it's called an "analogy."

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

Armstrong Williams didn't find anything wrong with the idea either.

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

I seem to recall someone famous saying something about a free press being the cornerstone of democracy. I would imagine that another key element of that would be an honest press.

But then, as you are someone who has stated repeatedly that he finds nothing wrong with a President lying to the public, I wouldn't expect you to agree with this.

Islam- a religion where they chant the news
 

Do you know who the competition is?

• Al-Jazeera TV Staff in Ramallah in Anti-Bush Demonstration: Down with Fascist America
  
  Following are excerpts from a demonstration of Al-Jazeera TV staff against U.S. President Bush. Footage of the demonstration was aired on Al-Jazeera TV on November 24, 2005.
  
  Crowd: Bush is a criminal against humanity.
  
  Demonstrator: Stop this aggression.
  
  Crowd: Stop this aggression.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush, give and take.
  
  Crowd: George Bush, give and take.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush, give and take.
  
  Crowd: George Bush, give and take.
  
  Demonstrator: You are an enemy of the (United) States.
  
  Crowd: You are an enemy of the (United) States.
  
  Demonstrator: You are an enemy of the civilizations.
  
  Crowd: You are an enemy of the civilizations.
  
  Demonstrator: You are a mafia leader.
  
  Crowd: You are a mafia leader.
  
  Demonstrator: Ten times ten equals one hundred.
  
  Crowd: Ten times ten equals one hundred.
  
  Demonstrator: Ten times ten equals one hundred.
  
  Crowd: Ten times ten equals one hundred.
  
  Demonstrator: Down with fascist America.
  
  Crowd: Down with fascist America.
  
  Demonstrator: And with the terrorist administration.
  
  Crowd: And with the terrorist administration.
  
  Demonstrator: And with the criminal ideas.
  
  Crowd: And with the criminal ideas.
  
  Demonstrator: And with the destructive policies.
  
  Crowd: And with the destructive policies.
  
  Demonstrator: With the Sharonist Bushism.
  
  Crowd: With the Sharonist Bushism.
  
  Demonstrator: This channel is for all people.
  
  Crowd: This channel is for all people.
  
  Demonstrator: This channel is for all people.
  
  Crowd: This channel is for all people.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush has no feelings.
  
  Crowd: George Bush has no feelings.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush has no feelings.
  
  Crowd: George Bush has no feelings.
  
  Demonstrator: This channel is for all people.
  
  Crowd: This channel is for all people.
  
  Demonstrator: He should collapse and be trampled on.
  
  Crowd: He should collapse and be trampled on.
  
  Demonstrator: Oh my comrade, oh my friend.
  
  Crowd: Oh my comrade, oh my friend.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush is not normal.
  
  Crowd: George Bush is not normal.
  
  Demonstrator: Oh my comrade, oh my friend.
  
  Crowd: Oh my comrade, oh my friend.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush is not normal.
  
  Crowd: George Bush is not normal.
  
  Demonstrator: He is the real criminal.
  
  Crowd: He is the real criminal.
  
  Demonstrator: Al-Jazeera, with cleverness.
  
  Crowd: Al-Jazeera, with cleverness.
  
  Demonstrator: With its experience and expertise.
  
  Crowd: With its experience and expertise.
  
  Demonstrator: Has exposed Bush and (his) despicability.
  
  Crowd: Has exposed Bush and (his) despicability.
  
  Demonstrator: Let's repeat this one. Al-Jazeera, with cleverness.
  
  Crowd: Al-Jazeera, with cleverness.
  
  Demonstrator: With its experience and expertise.
  
  Crowd: With its experience and expertise.
  
  Demonstrator: Has exposed Bush and (his) despicability.
  
  Crowd: Has exposed Bush and (his) despicability.

http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=942

clip- http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...EMRI-92246.jpg

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

Oops. My bad.


I expect the media to show a modicum of self restraint and responsibility. I expect them to think seriously about every article they post about the war. If an article damages the war effort and does not produce any positive effect, why print it? Just like the media shouldn't report troop positions are military strategy, it shouldn't screw up a US covert propaganda operation.




Whatever. Why don't you just admit there is a huge difference between the US government trying to manipulate the US media to its trying to manipulate the domestic media in a country where we are fighting an insurgency.

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

I agree with this thematically, but suspect that the difference between our views is one of degree.

I don't pretend to know the extent to which that paper considered restraining themselves. You're bothered by it, I suppose, because you are inclined to believe it was working/would work, and that there's no upside to our learning about it. And that therefore the LAT probably exercised no restraint at all.

I believe that there's at least some upside to Americans learning about it, am more skeptical about whether it was working/would work, and therefore am bothered somewhat less, and am willing to tolerate the downside as a cost of living in a free society.

Presumably, you didn't like the whole Pentagon Papers thing either.

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

You can't be serious here. Do you think the press should be completely free in a wartime situation. What if the US was secretly inserting articles into Pravda during the Cold War. Should the press have exposed that?

Does freedom of the press mean that the press should print all information they got no matter what the content?

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

It bothers me that they can't even lie competently.

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

Its a sales issue. Its a tad harder to sell the product in a territory where people can actually spot bullshitters. You get lazy when you're pitching snake oil to white trash whose idea of exotic literature is Leviticus. You start thinking you can throw the same change ups you fire at the base to the rest of the country.

Karl's overrated. He's not a genius, he's just a new low in cynicism. His trick was simple math - "There's enough dumb trash in this country to get us over the top. Lets focus on them. Tell them some crap about family values. With their votes added to the mass of moderates who'll vote for us for lower taxes, we'll create an unbeatable coalition."

Solid game plan, but how do we shut up the trash once we have their votes?

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

What upside? Is this something nefarious that needs to be exposed? If unexposed what harm could it cause?

Would you admit that it is possible that it might have done some good.

I can't see any upside to the exposure and no downside to the operation. I think it shows that LA times is more concerned about a) selling newspapers or b) making the Bush administration look bad over our being successful in Iraq and limiting the exposure of our troops to harm.

They should be universally condemned for what they did. I think the problem is that people have become so cynical they don't expect the press to show any responsibility.

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

Generally not, but if Cheney's office insists on leaking them to me, what am I supposed to do? Cover my ears and hum?

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

Yes.

No. The press should not be allowed to pry into the private lives of citizens and invade their privacy. As for the government, yes, I believe the press should be allowed to print pretty much everything. The only exceptions that I would allow for would be a restraint on information which would put the lives of people in jeopardy, for instance, an article on how the DoD has found a way to make anthrax from microwaving Kraft American Singles. Or the names of covert CIA operatives.

Unless those covert CIA operatives are in Saigon assassinating political candidates opposing the Thieu regime.

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

Which is one very good reason to print the story. If an Administration can't even run a basic propaganda operation without getting busted, then it's time for a change.

See? Torture works!
 

From those freedom-loving fuckers at NewsMax

• John McCain: Torture Worked on Me
  
  Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.
  
  Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!
  
  In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.
  
  "Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.
  
  
  "I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."
  The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."
  
  Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."

Now, to be fair, the editors at pro-torture NewsMax didn't say these exact words, so it's probably a stretch to conclude that NewsMax is calling McCain a hypocritical pussy who breaks easily.

See? Torture works!
 

Why would they publish this? Isn't this just helping our enemies in Iraq and elsewhere?

See? Torture works!
 

Richard Mellon Scaife (contrib to NM) is on the list of people I'd watch drown, while balancing my beer on a life raft in his plain view.

See? Torture works!
 

Good question. I think this article is helping America's enemies and there should be a huge outcry over this article. I am sure that Tax Wonk things that this article is a good thing because the more information out there (McCain's giving into torture) the better.

See? Torture works!
 

He's going to run for President in 2008. Don't you want to know whether he will blab the football codes if he is ever kidnapped and threatened with a wedgie?

See? Torture works!
 

I think that most politicians would talk with a threat of a wedgie, with McCain it would have to be an atomic wedgie.

I can't wait until 2008. This board is going to be really fun then. I would just like to see one presidential primary race not decided until the convention.

God's Wrath or Evolution
 

Was this guy (Pinyan) punished because he broke Gods law, or was this simply a matter of the weak minded being disposed of through natural selection: You decide.

SEATTLE


A man has pleaded guilty to trespassing in connection with a fatal horse-sex case.

James Michael Tait, 54, of Enumclaw, was accused of entering a barn without the owner's permission. Tait admitted to officers that he entered a neighboring barn last July with friend Kenneth Pinyan to have sex with a horse, charging papers said. Tait was videotaping the episode when Pinyan suffered internal injuries that led to his death.

Tait pleaded guilty Tuesday and was given a one-year suspended sentence, a $300 fine, and ordered to perform eight hours of community service and have no contact with the neighbors.

The prosecutor's office said no animal cruelty charges were filed because there was no evidence of injury to the horses.

God's Wrath or Evolution
 

Both. This is proof that God endorses Darwin.

God's Wrath or Evolution
 

Depends - how did he incur the internal injuries?

The guy was ordered to have no contact with the neighbors. I'll bet that the neighbors were not eager to have contact with him.

Most Foolish War since Emperor Augustus in 9 B.C Sent His Legions into Germany
 

Gambling?!?! In this casino?!?!

Who is telling the truth about the war?
 

I thought we were trying to install a democracy in Iraq, not a Potemkin village.

Most Foolish War since Emperor Augustus in 9 B.C Sent His Legions into Germany
 

Yeah, but it was the Priest who was picketing that gambling was wrong just last week.

See? Torture works!
 

Well, but for the fact that McCain published in his autobiography, I would consider it personal information, of the sort that the press shouldn't freely publish.

But it's nice to know that you're thinking about my posts.

God's Wrath or Evolution
 

I don't think God is that much of a micromanager. My vote is for thinning the herd.

Security v. police state
 

So a public bus in Denver goes through a Federal Center. At some point on the bus ride, guards get on the bus and ask everyone for ID. As I understand it, the bus route goes through this particular complex of Federal buildings, and some people get off there while others move on. The ID policy apparently was implemented after the McVeigh/Nichols bombings in 1995.

A woman, commuting to work, says "No, I don't have to show you my ID." Feds haul her off the bus, throw her into a cop car, and charge her with some unspecified petty offense. She says that the guards just glanced at the IDs and didn't compare them to any lists.

The incident has caused quite a stir in Denver. (And incidently, today is the anniversary of Rosa Parks's refusal to give up her seat on the bus, so a lot of comparisons are being made there. Woman lost her job after being 3 hours late to work, and she has a son serving in Iraq.)

Should we have to show ID on demand to Federal officers? Seems to me on Federal property, even if it's just passing through, that the Feds can do whatever they want to to ensure security. I don't have a problem with the x-ray machines and checkpoints when walking into a federal building, and this doesn't seem that burdensome. On the other hand, from the article I linked to, it appears that the public really doesn't have warning on when the IDs are going to be checked. It's sort of a random thing based on whether or not the federal property is on high alert. It was unclear if there were other routes that went to the same places that didn't go through that property.

Security v. police state
 

I think it is time for a national ID card with retina scan, DNA and Fingerprints. It would clear up all sorts of Social Security, Welfare and voting fraud - help with illegal immigration and improve security. Many western countrys including Spain and Italy have done this and it is not like they have turned into police states.

I know that didn't really answer the question but I thought I would throw it out there.

Security v. police state
 

It seems like it would make more sense to check only the IDs of people who are getting off at that location, and like it's kind of useless if they aren't comparing the IDs to a list or anything, but it doesn't seem like a problem. Though, it seems unfair that a regular public bus route has to go THROUGH the fed property. Drop the damn fed employees at the gate and let 'em walk, or let the feds have a shuttle from the gate to the workplace.

Security v. police state
 

How much do retina scanners cost? Hand-held versions.

Security v. police state
 

Biometrics are a major, major problem because once the data is stolen, it can't be changed. The computer translates the image into digital information, which is compared to whatever is in the database. If someone gets a hold my password, I can change it. If someone gets a hold of the digital version of my retna, it's not like I can go out and get new eyes.

Do you think that the woman in Denver should have been forced to show her ID?

Don't tell me that flying is dangerous....
 

The highways are a meat grinder but no one seems to notice.



Death toll from road accidents 390 times that from terrorism: study

The body count from road accidents in developed economies is 390 times higher than the death toll in these countries from international terrorism, says a study appearing in a specialist journal, Injury Prevention. In 2001, as many people died every 26 days on American roads as died in the terrorist attacks of 9/11, it says.


Researchers led by Nick Wilson of Otago University, New Zealand, trawled through a US State Department database of deaths caused by international terrorism, and compared this with an Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development database on road crash deaths among 29 OECD countries.

The study covered two years, in 2000 and 2001.

The authors acknowledge the widespread emotional, political and economic impacts of terrorism, but they also point out the enormous difference in scale between the two death tolls.

"Policymakers need to be aware of this when allocating resources to preventing these two avoidable causes of mortality," they say.

Security v. police state
 

Pretty much the same thing as finger prints. I got finger printed when I became a member of the bar. I don't feel threatened at all that my fingerprints are out there. My fingerprint or retinal scan information does not scare me as much as my buying patterns from my credit cards. Yet anyone can get that information.

Don't tell me that flying is dangerous....
 

This is another of those comparisons that I just don't get. I do not care if there are more deaths from road accidents than Soldiers killed in Iraq or than people killed at the World Trade Center.

Terrorism and War are decisions by people to kill others, and have to be dealt with on their own on that basis. We are a country that cherishes the individual and the individual's achievement and liberty; we should not bury ourselves in statistics to minimize the horor of any one individual killing another individual.

Security v. police state
 

While I am anything but an originalist, I usually think anything that both Hamilton and Jefferson would have objected to can't be good. I believe both Hamilton and Jefferson would have objected to random stops and checks.

Of course, we know that Adams would have insisted that he had the right to wander the streets of Boston dressed like an Indian without those damn British soldiers stopping him. Do you think Adams would have liked the Village People?

Security v. police state
 

I do patent work for a company that makes remote keyless entry systems (key fobs) and garage door openers. People steal the signals so they can break in- Why go through all that bother- two words CROW BAR.

We also do work for a company that makes security systems for ATMs.

You wouldn't believe the shit crooks do. There is a wave in Canada where they hide tiny cameras in the ATM vestibule to learn your PIN. brave new world.