Smokin' Stork
 

I wouldn't see myself having a "brat" either. That being said, others' children should be seen and not heard, and I'm tired of doting parents constantly reminding me of how "their child" is clearly the greatest child since Mozart or Jesus.

But I find myself getting off point...

Actually, there was a pile-on and "shock and awe" for someone daring to suggest that having a drink was ok.

Isn't it apparent? But let me add the "daddy brigade" to this lest I be accused of being sexist.

I actually recall Multo and perhaps GWINK being the only people to do so.

Oh, right, actors and actresses shoved in our faces and who use their bully pulpit to express their views are NOT role models. OK, Charles Barkley.

But you WOULD purport to tell establishment owners and paying customers what they can and cannot do? I see.

And you thought there was racism on AI
 

And the folks who criticize Tiger for being aloof in his refusal to address race issues have shit for brains. Tiger's and Jordan's wise decision to simply eliminate race from the equation makes race a non-issue. Racist whites and race-card playing non-whites can only affect their negative goals if people address their firebrand comments.

I understand that the race issue can never really go away, but there has to be someone who says "It ain't relevant" at some point, otherwise the emphasis on racial differences, which is counterproductive, will persist.

Of course, I recognize that Tiger and MJ could only play this issue so coyly due to the luxury of their supremely elevated status. Most other folks are forced to deal with race. Nevertheless, TIger and MJ's lead is a refreshing start in the right direction.

S(I also appreciate Barkley's no-nonsense "Race persists because dumbasses insist on bringing it up" comments)D

There's No Need to Fear . . .
 

Caped Crusader Saves the Day in English Town

LONDON (Reuters) - A masked and caped do-gooder has been sweeping through an English town, performing good deeds and scattering terrified bad guys, a local newspaper reported.

The Kent and Sussex Courier said Friday it had received letters from "stunned residents" of the town of Tunbridge Wells, southeast of London, who saw the man in a brown mask and cape scare off hooligans and return a woman's dropped purse.

Full text: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...nm/crusader_dc

Kids
 

I don't have kids either. But I'm intelligent enough to realize that kids have short attention spans, and that parents can temper such situations by making sure they have on hand plenty of toys, crayons and a cookie in an attempt to keep the brats preoccupied.

not7yS

Kids
 

It's amazing to me how suddenly children aren't annoying after people have them and become used to shrill screaming. Taking turns taking the kid out of the dining area is an appreciated response of parents with children who behave inappropriately for a restaurant. I certainly don't expect you to "beat them senseless" but just because you have become inured to the noise doesn't mean everyone else is.

Again, if you are at a restaurant that is clearly "family friendly" other people shouldn't expect the kids to be seen and not heard. They assumed the risk. But if the behavior is really unreasonable, someone should take the kid outside.

Airports and airplanes (etc.) I figure I've assumed the risk. I hate it when there's a screaming baby on board, but if I wanted to insulate myself from screaming children I should charter a plane or something. Misbehaving kid with parent making no effort to correct it is a different story.

Women
 

"Again, you're always right and I'm always wrong."

This was the one-line email from SO. You women are sneaky. Especially when right/wrong wasn't the issue.

If I agree, then I'm an asshole.

If I disagree, then I strenously agree.

There's No Need to Fear . . .
 

Townshend got community-controlled sanctions, eh? :D

Parent w/ spirited kids
 

Actually, I think you should have controlled your kid. And I think the management should probably have asked you to do it when they first had a complaint from another patron; if one's complaining, others are probably thinking it. Though the guy was an idiot for refusing a quiet table (unless it was in a back room or something), I have sympathy for the view that patrons who aren't disturbing anybody shouldn't be the ones making concessions.

It's a general rule of good manners. Intrusive practices in the presence of others are OK only if everyone consents, but once you are intruding on someone who isn't a willing participant, the person preferring the non-intrusive option (quiet, no smoke, no running, etc.) always takes precedence. Unless, as someone said, the nature of the place itself meant he assumed the risk. Patons of very casual restaurants can reasonably expect to eat in peace, too. While they can surely expect to encounter parents still actively trying to teach their kids manners and control, it is reasonable to expect those parents to be actively trying to keep the kids under control or from disturbing others. The only restaurant in which someone assumes the risk of children actually running around freely or playing in the aisles or screaming is Chuck-E-Cheeze & the like.

So unless the awning advertised "kids run free!" or "kid friendly!" or something, he was, frankly, acting appropriately to ask the management and then you to prevent the disruption. But after the management refused to do anything he found acceptable, he really should have simply said "this is unacceptable" and just left refusing to pay. The management is obviously willing to lose customers over this, so that would have satisfied everyone.

Regarding the mixed signals thing, though - either the kid needs to get consistent signals that running around disturbing strangers is not OK, or the kid needs to GET mixed signals so he can start to learn about context. The same behavior isn't appropriate every place - what is bad about the kid being made aware of that? Just as it is not appropriate for the kid to run around in a restaurant, it is not appropriate for him to sit in Chuck-E-Cheeze quietly using a knife and fork on his pizza. Learn the phrase and love it: "There is a time and a place for that sort of thing, young man."

Parent w/ spirited kids
 

RP,

I didn't mean to imply that you agree - I only responded to your post because it was the most recent.

I hope other parents get the hint that when their kid comes over and starts playing with a toy in front of me or addresses me while I'm wearing sunglasses and reading the NYTimes on Sat morning in shorts, flip flops and a T-shirt, I'm obviously hurting from the previous evening and do not think you kid is cute. Perhaps later, when I'm feeling better, I could find your kid cute, but not early on Sat morn. Parents should recall that we kidless folks have the luxury of being able to stay out late and indulge and might be feeling a wee bit under the wind. They should assume that when we are clearly struggling to keep our food down and are wearing a hat pulled down over our eyes with our head down that we will not find bleating children amusing. So PLEASE, mom and dad, if your bundle of joy is jumping all over a table where a younger looking person is minding his/her business, don't hesitate to remove the kid ASAP. We may smile back at you to be polite or even pretend to be interested in your kid, but we're really just looking for private time alone to ponder what the hell we did last night.

S(And new parent friends - don't ask a 32 year old male to hold your newborn - I'm scared shitless of dropping the kid and don't want him spitting on me... If I wanted one, I'd have one - take the hint)D

Women
 

Oh, you are well and truly fucked. This line is always a show-stopper, because it twists a lawyer's brain into a pretzel. Of course I'm always right! Would I intentionally choose the wrong position? And if I were to discover I was wrong, I would immediately change my position and become right again, with no hard feelings! What the fuck to women want us to do, persist in holding a mistaken belief long enough for them to score points by showing us that it was wrong, and only then conform our beliefs to that which is right?

Criminy.

Good luck to you, Coltrane.

Parent w/ spirited kids
 

Just to give you some good feeling about it all - revenge is it's own best reward, after all - consider the plight of the normal first-time new parent who is still not used to the idea that three bottles of scotch on a Friday night might now be excessive, who has made it to bed at 2:30 am, and then has to stumble back out of bed with the massive overhang with the pounding head, dry mouth, and queasy rolling stomach at five to change a really smelly diaper on a kid whose last meal was strained carrots, peas, and mashed roast beef.

With that picture in mind, you can just look at the parents and laugh.

Kids
 

I think you've taken me out of context. I just think I have become more sympathetic to how difficult it can be to "make children behave." Children do not automatically come into this world knowing appropriate behavior, and parents cannot teach it overnight. I don't automatically blame parents anymore for being awful parents when their kids are misbehaving. And I don't automatically view every child as a brat until proven otherwise, as it seems many here do. Clearly, I don't bring my kids into Le Cirque, but there are occasions where we hit the Mexican Restaurant down the street, or bring them on planes, or even into fairly nice stores (with nothing breakable at toddler height of course.) Some people are increasingly intolerant of kids though -- and surprisingly, it is the 20 to 30 somethings as often as the old folks. In fact, many older folks love seeing little kids around.

I'm not sure whether you expect them to suddenly emerge from their homes at age 18, fully formed and ready to have tea with the queen. They have to learn behavior, and the only way to do so is to get out in the world with adults.

That being said, all good parents, ourselves included, should have a low tolearnce for children that repeatedly annoy others or interfere with other people's enjoyment of a meal, flight, etc.

Physician, heal thy_____
 

This guy was saying your kids shouldn't be there so he didn't have to watch HIS OWN behavior? So he's obviously an idiot, just as a parent implying that a quiet normal patron shouldn't be there so his kids can freely run wild is an idiot. (If it wasn't a titty-bar or a stockbroker hang-out or something. Those who go into expensive steakhouses take their chances.)

I guess it's sort of nice that he'd be concerned for corrupting the youth, in a weird way. I'd just go ahead and swear like a sailor.
I agree, tough beans.
I suspect we are, and I always love a good rant.

Parent w/ spirited kids
 

If I ever have a child I will be sure to send the little cutie over to your table. "Honey, go say hi to that nice couple, they look hungover and could probably use some cheering up." Then my hubby and I would laugh and laugh at our little revenge ... and then the laughter would fade as we wistfully looked forward to our next carefree bender -- 14-16 years hence.

Physician, heal thy_____
 

He was in the Kirby Pucket memorial restaurant, after all. Bilmore, was he seated anywhere near the restroom?