parental leave policies
 

Your math is right. The primary caregiver is a way of saying, look, we aren't discriminating between man or woman, and if the man is going to be a primary caregiver, he gets the additional time off. Of course, any woman going through labor gets the time. My wife had STD at her firm for bedrest, but not for pregnancy.

Lot's of double talk, and my impression is the rules apply mainly to staff and less well thought of associates -- a well thought of associate, and someone figures out how to bend the rules and give them as much as possible. And when it's time to take vacation at Christmas, is there a law firm anywhere that doesn't consider you working if you book a little time whereever you are? And don't all of us book a little time most days on any vacation?

The original question was paternity leave, and there I think the answer is, 2 weeks unless you can make a primary caregiver argument, then 6.

Nannies
 

The law in my state is clear that nanny cams are totally legal. The audio portion however has not been tested and is a bit of a grey area I suppose considering the federal wiretap laws regarding telephones. Should I be sued in a civil action about it, I don't really care. I know that sounds strange.

I called the Nanny on Saturday morning with my Dad on the phone (also an attorney). At first, only I spoke. I very nicely told her that I was sorry but I would be making other child care arrangements and that I'm sorry, but I'd be terminating her employment. She was pissed. She told me "You have to give me notice." I told her I was, right then and there. She railed how she had left her old job, etc., and at that point my Dad piped in and said, "Hi. I am Vietmom's father and also an attorney. You are being terminated because of the results of the security camera in the home. Please do not pursue anything further or we will pursue things as well." Then we both hung up and that was it.

As for her working as a Nanny again, I just got off the phone with an emergency nanny service to get me someone this Monday and Tuesday while I work from home until new Nanny starts. They told me they have someone that JUST called them this past Saturday night and they are interviewing her Monday so maybe she could care for my child on Tuesday or after the interview Monday. I asked for her name. They gave it to me. Yep. It was her. I said I would call back another time and of course I won't be calling back.

For Billmore: mild physical stuff, like rapping Vietbabe's hands when Vietbabe was caught playing with the electrical cord (which I watched her play with for one hour while the Nanny slept on the couch; the Nanny awoke, saw Babe with the cord and then rapped Vietbabe's hand and yelled at her, then went back to sleep whereupon Vietbabe continued to play with the cord.)

Another time, she woke up from sleeping in a chair and saw Vietbabe on the couch and yanked Vietbabe off the couch by her shirt for no reason (she just didn't want her on the couch). The rest of the tape was Vietbabe trying to get the Nanny to hold her or Vietbabe giving her a book for the Nanny to read to her, and the Nanny yelling at her to not go near the Nanny, to leave her alone and that she is a spoiled child. She'd pick Vietbabe up and put her in a corner and tell her to stay in the corner, then would go back to sleep on the chair or couch. Vietbabe spent the day slumped in the corner weeping. Half the day she wasn't even in the living room where the Nanny spent the ENTIRE day. She was obviously on the second floor b/c I couldn't hear her on the tape. The Nanny continued watching TV or sleeping. She had no idea where Vietbabe was.

She did not feed Vietbabe lunch or dinner. Instead, the Nanny ate Vietbabe's food (like Mac and Cheese) while sitting on the couch watching TV. She tossed V-babe some crackers (on the floor where Vietbabe was sitting as per Nanny's instructions all day) but when Vietbabe finished them and was still hungry, she went towards the mac and cheese the nanny was eating and the Nanny pushed her hands away and said "No!!": When I got home, she told me about all the Mac and Cheese Vietbabe had eaten and (to explain the absence of the one pack of crackers I had left on the counter) she said, "Vietbabe is sure a snacker; she ate all the crackers for desert".

The whole day she did not look at Vietbabe. When Vietbabe stood in front of her with upstretched arms, she would cross her own arms and shake her head in annoyance like "Ugh. What a pain in the ass." When Vietbabe put her hand on the Nanny's thigh with a stuffed animal to have her play with it with her, the Nanny yelled at her to stay away and then got up and went to sit on the armchair which is small enough so that Vietbabe would not be able to climb on it to bother her. When Vietbabe went near the Nanny's legs, the Nanny would curl up her legs and sit on them so they couldn't be touched, all the while never taking her eyes from the TV.

So there it is. Actionable or not? I don't know.

VietMom

Nannies
 

From a legal ethics standpoint, could this be something that the Nanny could use to get you in trouble with the state bar? It looks like you didn't tell the Nanny at the beginning of the conversation that there was another person listening in. Moreover, could your father's prefacing his statement with the fact that he is an attorney be viewed as something that gives the "appearance of impropriety" since his statement "I am . . . also an attorney" could be considered threatening/ intimidating as used in the context of this specific conversation? To a lay person, it might have the feel of an off-duty police officer listening in on the telephone call and then piping in "I am Vietmom's father and also a [police officer]. You are being terminated because of the results of the security camera . . ."


As for whether this stuff is actionable, have you consulted with a social worker or a lawyer who specializes in such matters?

Nannies
 

I could be wrong (I often am), but it doesn't seem problematic to me unless they knew the nanny was represented by counsel.

Vietmom, I wish you well in your search for child care.

Eavesdropping Laws/Attorney Ethics Violations
 

I can't imagine I could get in trouble with the state bar over this, and to be honest, my Dad was actually pretty cool in the conversation. It was only when she got hot-headed and started implying I couldn't fire her and demanding angrily why she was being fired that my father very simply (and oddly, almost politely) told her "you are being fired because of the results of a security camera in the home. Ok, [my name] let's hang up now."

As for the legality of a person listening in to a call -- my understanding of my state's law is that during a phone conversation, one of the parties to the call is free to tape the call (or allow someone to eavesdrop in on it) without the other person's knowledge. The rule is that one person to the conversation must consent to the taping. In that case, the person doing the taping or allowing the evesdropping (me) would be giving the consent. So it's legal. This may sound like not much of a law protecting conversations, but it is when you consider a conversation between two people (like mob bosses discussing a crime) and the feds wiring into the call to listen to it without either of the mob bosses knowing about the eavesdrop. In my case, I consented to the eavesdropping by my father. I suspect Bilmore may have a better idea on the general law in this area though I do think it is to some extent a state by state issue.

As to my father's potential attorney-ethics issue, I would think it would be entirely proper to want my own father on the phone call wherein I fired the crazy woman and asked her not to come to my home anymore. It was important to me to have someone else on the call not just for moral support, but so that someone else heard me be clear about my wishes for her to stay away. (Think here about if I were married and called her and then my husband piped in. Maybe she would have originally thought it was just me on the phone but probably wouldn't be surprised if my husband chimed in. When a wife calls someone especially concerning care of their child, would it be illegal if she didn't announce in the begining that both parents were on the phone line?)

When she started saying I couldn't fire her without notice (presumably she meant "advanced notice" as I was surely giving her notice) and badgered me why I was doing this and such, I think it was ok for my Dad to simply say she was being fired due to the results of the security camera (which is slam dunk legal in my state). He probably didn't need to say he was an attorney but I think he was in his own way letting her know that it was legal to have taped her and fire her as a result of it. Not sure what you mean by the perception of intimidation. Dad's a civil attorney (transactional) and the Nanny knows it. The only attorney that could do her harm would be a prosecutor. Unless of course, we were planning on a civil action for monetary damages against her which we are not. Not even if she had a deep pocket.

I guess I have a hard time thinking my state bar would have a problem with what I did. I simply called and fired (without yelling or anything) the lady to whom I had paid $150 for her to fail to supervise and cruelly neglect my child, and had Dad on the phone b/c the whole thing was upsetting. She had the nerve to ask why she had been fired and I think it was ok for Dad to tell her it was b/c of the security cam and to stop pursing this line of suggesting I can't fire her without advance notice, blah blah blah, lest we pursue it further ourselves.

Now, maybe I'm just too close to all this to see the potential attorney-ethics violation here. To me, it doesn't seem like a problem. But I'm more than open to thoughts otherwise. I sure don't want my license yanked. Boy would that suck.

Well, the only lawyers I know who "specialize" in this type of stuff would be a prosecutor. I am having it looked at by a solo-practitioner in my town (a generalist) whose overall judgment I trust and depending on what he says we both might call the prosecutor and simply turn the tape over to him/her and say "here's a tape of a Nanny; if you think it warrants charges, fine. If not, fine."

If it were you, what would you do? And what about the knowledge I have that this lady picked up the phone hours after I fired her to try to get another child care position? At this point, on the topic of this whole terrible episode, I am inclined to (besides posting long annoying messages here) simply turn the tape over to "someone" and be done with it. Perhaps others would actively try to warn other parents about this woman. My goal is to at least try to stop this from happening to another child, but not so actively that I risk pissing this unstable person off and having her show up with her husband's gun (he's a cop) and blow our brains out or something.

Vietmom (Going to Florida with the Babe to visit the Rents)

Law in state/Consent on Behalf of Minors?
 

In my state, it looks Nanny cams with both video AND audio are allowed. I'd need to get the actual case though.

http://www.knowyournanny.com/LANDMARK%20PAGE.HTM

On the audio issue, regarding the verbal interaction between the Nanny and Vietbabe, the law clearly says that taping is ok if one of the parties to the verbal interaction consented to the taping. In this case, can it not be said that as a minor, I consented to the taping on behalf of Vietbabe?

Eavesdropping Laws/Attorney Ethics Violations
 

If I had been in your position, I would have gotten angry enough to inflict unspeakable horrors on the Nanny.

Given that this is not an option, I would have immediately made an appointment with an attorney who specializes in such matters -- primarily to ask him/her what is actionable, what my rights are, the legality of what I have done in gathering information (i.e., the Nanny-cam), etc. Then I would call the Nanny, on my attorney's speakerphone, wherein at the beginning of the conversation, I would tell the Nanny that I have my attorney listening in. At the end of the conversation, I would advise the Nanny to get an attorney of her own if she had any problems and wanted to challenge my actions.

Did the Nanny have a written employment contract with you? If so, did the contract say that she could be dismissed at anytime with or without reason?

As for this Nanny taking another job, I would not take any further action until I have consulted with a lawyer. Indeed, she might get the police dept. to harass you, or she might sue you for frivolous reasons just to make your life miserable. Just report her to the social services people and let them take care of it; there is no reason for you to take on the burden of saving the world.

Eavesdropping Laws/Attorney Ethics Violations
 

You shouldn't need to go thru a prosecutor. Most states have reporting laws for suspected child abuse or neglect, under which the DSS (or your state's equivalent) will take confidential reports and are required to follow up, without revealing the reporter's identity. Unlike initiating criminal charges, it takes you out of the process once you have made the report and given the agency information. There are also lawyers who specialize in child protection matters- mostly the ones who "prosecute" absue nd neglect work for the state, then there's a bar of lawyers who take court appointed work representing the parents accused of same or their children. There's no reason you couldn't hire one of those to look over the tape and give you advice- they may have a "defense" slant to things, but its a very different practice than criminal law, and lots of these folks have represented moms, dads, and kids at different times, and been on different sides of the "was there abuse or neglect" question (i.e., if they are appointed to represent a child and conclude they agree with the DSS position).

Your state's reporting law might give you some indication as well whether you are free to share this information with nanny agencies, such as the one she called right after you fired her.

Again, good luck. Don't lose sleep over the bar ticket. Even if it were technically improper (which I still don't see), I can't imagine the bar overseers doing anything of consequence under the circumstances.

Eavesdropping Laws/Attorney Ethics Violations
 

Stop thinking like a lawyer here. Or rather, step back and think like a lawyer - clearly there is cause here, so regardless, termination is appropriate, even if it were the case that there was a problem in recording without consent, which apparently there isn't.

She's fired. That's it. End of story.

Viet-mom, I do wonder about the part of your tale where you mention that the temp agency was about to send the same nanny to you. Did you not tell them that you just had the same nanny? It seems unfair to the agency and to the next family that gets her. I don't think you need to be explicit; but I do think you should tell them that she was your former nanny and that she was unacceptable.

In most states (all that I'm aware of, but then I haven't canvased the entire US), statements by employers about former employees in the context of a recommendation enjoy a limited privilege against defamation claims. This would cut short any potential action against you.

I echo the recommendation to go to Social Services. They have the best chance of getting her out of the system. They have the best chance of documenting any pattern. If you don't call now, then when the next family calls, DSS won't see a pattern. It would be horrible if the first indication DSS had of a problem was some kid's injury or death.

While you're on the phone, you might ask if they provide information on nannies to the public (i.e., can you check your next nanny with them to see if she's got a complaint). No idea if anyplace does this, but I'm curious.

Nanny nightmares
 

My mother and I have been fighting of late over my decision to put the Brazenette in day care rather than at home with a Nanny.

I think I'll have her read the recent posts in this forum to make her understand why I chose to go the way I did.

VietMom, I am so sorry for what you and the Babe have been through. Hug her extra tight, and remember that you have always tried to do what is best for her.

Nanny Nightmares
 

So sorry to hear about the nanny issues; and perhaps others are right in suggesting day care.

I want to speak up for the good nannies, though. We hired a woman when my first child was a newborn. All I can say about hiring her is that she felt right when I saw her with the baby.

She was our first and only nanny, who took care of the kids for 10 years until they were both in school. They didn't watch TV, but spent a lot of time at the local park, hanging out with other kids and nannies. And nanny was truly a good and patient person - better than I am at playing baby games for hours on end.

The hardest part of their relationship was that the kids and nanny truly loved each other, and the eventual separation was emotionally difficult, although they still visit from time to time.

I know other families here with similar stories, so it isn't impossible to find the right nanny.

Babysitter Blues
 

First, I am so very sorry to hear of your bad experience, and I hope things go vastly better in the future.

On the childcare issue you raise -- we use a day care provider who has just a couple of children at a time -- seems to be working wonderfully. She is an employee, essentially, of a network of day-care providers in the area. The network (which is a franchise of a national operation) screens providers, ensures that back-up providers are always available, and imposes certain standards. We get a little written report every day on food eaten, diapers, and activities. The woman has no TV. Our toddler _loves_ her. Good deal. It is pretty expensive for "day care" -- about half of what you said you were paying the first Nanny.

On the nanny subject --

We've never had a nanny, but one of my best friends has been a professional Nanny for about 23 years, and through her I've met several. The deal is that good, experienced Nannys are quite expensive - are rare in most parts of the country -- and are for the most part people who have chosen child-care as a career _because_ they love little kids. You're absolutely right that the system is rife with possibilities for abuse -- and I view every adult as a possible abuser -- but it is far from inevitable.

S_A_M

P.S. If the woman abused your child, my advice would be to report her to the police (in addition to firing), assuming that the Nanny-cam was legal.

Eavesdropping Laws/Attorney Ethics Violations
 

I have no problems with firing her for cause. The general rule in most states is that all employment is at-will, unless there is a contract indicating the contrary. But most lay people don't know this -- they think that they can be fired only for cause and with notice, etc.

I think having something written down which explains both parties' rights and obligations is a Good Thing, mainly because it educates the lay person employee of what is expected of him/her and what rights (or lack thereof) he/she has (or lacks). And if the Nanny-cam is completely legal in your jurisdiction, I would include a clause in the contract which says: "In accepting employment, you hereby consent to being recorded," which puts the Nanny on notice. The existence of such a clause might even prompt some unfit Nannies to avoid working with you.

p(This may be overkill or whatever, but I would NOT hire a Nanny without her having signed a contract. But maybe I'm a freak who needs everything in writing. Heck, while taking property during my 1L year, I was inspired to negotiate a very, very minor modification to my lease -- I typed up an addendum to the lease, presented two copies of the attachment and had the landlord sign and date each one, and gave one copy to my landlord and kept one in my file cabinet. The landlord, who was a grandmotherly type, thought that it was cute that I was being "all-lawyerly" and gladly went along with my fussing.)c

Eavesdropping Laws/Attorney Ethics Violations
 

Now I see where you're going. You want to have the fight up front, instead of at the end.

I find it wiser to simply leave things be when they are to my advantage. Let the nanny go try to hire a lawyer to sue me. It isn't going to happen.

I understand the concept of making sure everyone understands their rights and responsibilities going into a contract, but I think in this context it is overlawyering.

Epilogue
 

I can't thank you all enough. This is a damn good forum for the combo childcare/lawyering advice I've needed so sorely this week. I thought you'd all get a kick out of the "end" of the story.

Having obviously fired the Monster on Saturday, I now needed childcare for this week until new gal starts Monday. I immediately phoned a highly advertised service that provides Nannies on an emergency basis. I paid for a Nanny for Monday and Tuesday (yesterday and today). Nanny showed 1 hour late on Monday, then heated the chicken nuggets in the microwave for 10 minutes wrapped in a papertowel instead of 10 seconds. The towel caught fire. Fireman and all at the house. Meanwhile, I had woken up with the stomach flu so I was barfing all day. Badly.

The next day (today), nobody showed. Instead, my phone wrang off the hook from 7 am onward -- the owner of the emergency nanny company calling to tell me she didn't think the nanny would be at my house today because she's discovered the nanny is not really responsible and will be fired by the company, and it's not the company's fault, and trying to tell me her life story. Meanwhile, the Nanny herself is phoning me at the same time telling me what a "psycho" the owner of the company is, yada yada yada. And I'm holding a kid and running to barf. LOL!!!!!

Three hours later, the owner of the company shows up sobbing at my door and wants to tell me why her business is so great and this is all such an anamoly (which I spelled wrong I'm sure). [I don't even know this woman. Just ordered up a Nanny on Saturday via phone]. Meanwhile, I haven't even fed my kid because I'm fielding phone calls all morning (and making them too - trying to find backup childcare for my backup child care that fell through).

I tell the lady nicely that a nanny business is surely hard to run, I wish her luck, but please leave now. Later in the day I am getting hounded by phone calls from a non-English speaking person wanting to confirm my address. The phone is ringing all day. What the heck is going on? The guy finally just shows up at my house and he's carrying flowers (um...thanks for waking my kid up from her nap). Flowers are from the emergency nanny company saying sorry. I thought I ordered a Nanny for yesterday and today but instead my house is filled with ringing phones, smelly florist deliverers, fireman, BUT NO NANNY.

LOL. I give up. The house is a wreck, its still smoky from the fire and I've barfed everywhere. I called a cleaning service and am now running to Mom and Dad in Florida.

If it had not been for the Monster sitter from hell, this week would be in retrospect quite funny. Can't wait to laugh about it with Vietbabe when she's old enough to share a bottle of wine with me.

Have a great work week!!