NYT - time for a complete boycott
 

So then I take it that personal freedom and the respect thereof is not part of your universal moral code?

NYT - time for a complete boycott
 

1. We are the only nation that comes close to doing an adequate job of respecting and protecting civil liberties and an intrusive government. No other nation on the planet comes close.

2. You tell me. Is the right to be secure and free in your person and property a moral right or not? Cut it out with the relativist bullshit.

Hamdan
 

And the sweetest part of the whole thing is that it's your Court. See, even a few conservatives still respect the rule of law.

Hamdan
 

Are you actually calling Kennedy a conservative?

Hamdan
 

Now that Bush's approval ratings are down, conservatives have decided that he's not a conservative. Listening to you guys hit this note is like listening to die-hard Reds explain that Marxism was never put into practice.

WMD
 

An update on these so-called "WMD":

• FOOL'S GOLD. Folks may remember the newly declassified discoveries of WMDs being touted by Rick Santorum, Curt Weldon, and others. The haul amounts to about 500 munitions which include sarin and mustard gas components and they are very, very scary. At least if you're a common household insect. That, at least, is the opinion of folks who actually know what they're talking about. Salon's Michael Scherer went by the congressional hearings meant to ascertain the potency of these armaments. The testimony, if it weren’t disproving the lies that led us into war, would've been funny. David Kay, the nation's top weapons inspector, explained that:
  
  As far back as September 2004, the CIA had disclosed the discovery of the old chemical munitions from Iraq's war with Iran. The CIA also explained that these weapons were not the ones the Bush administration had used to justify the invasion of Iraq. What's more, Kay said, the decades-old sarin nerve gas was probably no more dangerous than household pesticides -- and far more likely to degrade at room temperature. "In terms of toxicity, sir," Kay told Weldon at one point, "I suspect in your house, and I know in my house, I have things that are more toxic than sarin produced from 1984 to 1988."
  
  True to form, Weldon yelled at him. And the hearings got no better from there. Two Defense Intelligence Agency experts came to testify, explaining that the munitions were too corroded to be of use, and their embedded chemical weaponry was probably inextricable. The Committee's Republicans, somewhat pathetically, were reduced to protesting that these weapons do, indeed, fit the "category" of chemical weapons, even if they were no longer useable. Watching all this, Ike Skelton, the ranking Democrat, mocked his colleagues by comparing them to prospectors who come across a shiny nugget of fool's gold. "Well, old-timer," Skelton said, "that's a piece of pyrite." He then read aloud "a list of the vast quantities of chemical weapons that the CIA, and the Bush administration, had expected to find in Iraq. This laundry list, as described in the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, included between 100 and 500 metric tons of chemical weapons agents, most of which had been allegedly produced after 1991. As Skelton put it, 'The goalposts seem to have been moved.'"

Do you feel safer knowing that Santorum and Weldon are writing this nation's laws?

WMD
 

To be fair, your list is about 533 names short.

WMD
 

Do you feel safer knowing that Santorum and Weldon are involved in writing this nation's laws?

WMD
 

That list is still 533 names short.

WMD
 

I feel better knowing that Jim Leach and Olympia Snowe are involved, to take two examples. Craig Enzi and Randy Pombo, no so much. I wasn't asking about the other 533. Weldon and Santorum are jokes. With any luck, we won't have them to kick around after November.

Gitmo Justice
 

Well, at least once the detainees get their military tribunal, it's a fair hearing, right? Remember, it's the bush administration we're talking about.

I swear, does the administration even dimly understand that this shit does more harm than good? All the talk about "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about" is out the window. It will take years to undo the damage these buffoons have caused.

Gitmo Justice
 

What damage? Among the college faculty, Upper East Side and - gag - UK Guardian reader set?

However, you are correct. We should do like Putin. Kick out the media and shoot them all. Bye, bye story.

Gitmo Justice
 

Mostly I was thinking of all those Iraqis who were going to greet us with flowers. The ones you describe already knew the bushies were a bunch of buffoons.

You and I have different views of what America means, comrade. Perhaps you would be more comfortable in a dacha outside Moscow, hanging with Pooty-Poot?

Gitmo Justice
 

Complete this sentence without googling: "When an Iraqi you've never met before suddenly gives you flowers, it's ______ !"

Gitmo Justice
 

Mmmmmm. Fantasy.

ETA Or, on a less happy note, probably an IED.

Gitmo Justice
 

Mesopotamian Impulse?

Gitmo Justice
 

Are you fucking kidding me? What world do you live in where's it's OK to do what they're doing to this guy? If his defense is true, he was helping us. ("Mr Haider, the former defence official, said Mr Mujahid had contributed 30 soldiers to a major operation against al-Qaida in March 2002. 'He is completely innocent,' he said.") Leave alone the "damage" that when you screw people over, other people find out and think less of you. How about the possibility that we were screwing him over for the wrong reasons?

Cartoon Justice
 

Yes, apparently, this "damage" you speak of has affected the suits at Warner Bros. - because Superman now stands for "TRUTH. JUSTICE. AND ALL THAT IS GOOD."

Apparently, the "AMERICAN WAY" is now bad, bad, bad.

Cartoon Justice
 

No. It just isn't all that American any more.

Cartoon Justice
 

Maybe they want people in other countries to pay to watch it.

Cartoon Justice
 

You're right.

We now live in a country where half the politicians care more about illegal immigrants receiving benefits than about the tax payers supporting them.

We live in a country where our soldiers are declared imperialist murderers and sympathy for our enemies is encouraged.

We live in a country where an unelected judiciary steps all over the separation of powers doctrine and expands the scope of Treaties

We live in a country where "freedom of the press" now means "expose national security".

It really just isn't all that American anymore.

Cartoon Justice
 

Cite please?

And stop whining. People who generally agree with you control almost ever lever of power in this country. It's annoying when you mope about those people occasionally being less extreme than you would like.

Cartoon Justice
 

What about all the Republicans who care most about the businesses employing them?

(And let's get real -- immigrants pay taxes.)

What a crock of shit this is. Please.

Not a single Justice agreed with your interpretation of the Third Geneva Convention. Not Thomas, not Scalia, not Alito. It doesn't mean you're wrong -- just lonely over there on the right fringe.

So you think Karl Rove should go to jail?

Cartoon Justice
 

Bitch, please. Your soccer team won today. Your party's been running everything in the Federal Government for running on 6 years now. Lower (and unclench) your fist, go from the front yard back into your house, and have another beer.

Cartoon Justice
 

Jesus Christ. I avoid the FB to miss the spoilers, so you post them here, too?

Cartoon Justice
 

"Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry, yearning to breathe free...."

I haven't really heard that much other than a very small minority. What I hear a lot more of is "My country, right or wrong." That's bullshit. Ben Franklin said that those who are willing to sacrifice their liberty in the name of security desrve little of either."

It's called the separation of powers and it's enshrined in the Constitution. That doctrine deserves more than just lip service. When our President starts to act as though he jas been empowered to rule rather than to govern, it's time to smack his nose with a rolled-up slip opinion.

Without a free press, we have no security. If the federal government chooses to act as though it can suspend all due process in order to fight terrorism, it's the government that is creating terror.

Some of us are trying to fix that.

etft -- t.s.

Cartoon Justice
 

Didn't Murtha just declare that Bush is the biggest terrorist of them all?

Cartoon Justice
 

Wow, it's like watching FOX News. Um, by the way, what is American?

Who lied?
 

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

"There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. "[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.

Who lied?
 

George W. Bush, most notably in his State of the Union address, while trying to sell a costly and unnecessary war to the people of the United States.


What do I win?

Cartoon Justice
 

I believe Bush would like there not to be guys at Gitmo(I'm not trying to sound butch, I just know I can't spell it). He was stuck having to do something with them- with no blueprint of what to do. With a few exceptions they are people who would like to blow up your kid's school because God told them to. I don't want them on the street, Bush doesn't and probably you don't.

He came up with a plan- and the Supreme Court by 5-3 said "get Congress to make you a plan." That's all. Now you guys with your chorus of how clearly wrong it was seem to be ignoring how close the vote was. What clear guidence that he was heading down the wrong path do you really see?

This isn't some major rebuke. Those guys aren't going anywhere.

Who lied?
 

This type of back and forth just isn't productive (depending on your political persuasion, you likely already have unwavering opinions on this and can find snippets of support in the press), but someone please tell me, how much loss are we willing to tolerate to create a puppet state in the Middle East (please, no talk of democracy)? Loss can be lives or money, whichever is of more importance to you.

By the way, you get a gold star for a very thorough compilation of quotes. Wow.

Who lied?
 

You should make a strip about bored lawyers posting on blogs and making the same arguments for 5 years running.

Who lied?
 

The funny thing is, we now know that Clinton's Iraq policy worked. Iraq abandoned its WMD development after attacks Clinton ordered. Those -- like you -- who want to pretend that Clinton wasn't tough enough towards Hussein have the blood of 2,500 American soldiers and countless Iraqis on their hands. It's war for the sake of a political pose.

Cartoon Justice
 

Are you kidding? This case smashed the Administration's theory of the Unitary Executive so forcefully that they have David Addington on a 24 hour suicide watch. I don't care if it was 5-3, 5-4 or if SCOTUS had to go to Rock, Paper, Scissors. It's the law now.

I'd be more sympathetic to your characterization of the President as just a poor guy with a job to do and no blueprint to go by if the Administration hadn't spent the last 5 years telling Congress and the courts to go fuck themselves, thank you very much, because they, the grownups, have a plan, the Constitutional authority, and trust us because we don't need no fucking oversight either.

Gattigap



ETA: And it's not as if we've been saying that they had to empty Gitmo and put 450 guys on the NY subway tomorrow. Notably, a WaPo poll finds that 71 percent of folks think that the Gitmo detainees should either be given POW status, or charged with a crime.

Cartoon Justice
 

You know that and I know that. Others are apparently not able or willing to grasp the subtle dichotomy that we as Americans don't want and needn't tolerate terrorists but we nonetheless need to respect and follow the rule of law.

As Ben Franklin, a noted radical, once said, those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve very little of either.

I find it very telling that in the portion of his dissent read from the bench, Justice Thomas declared that this decision will interfere with the President's "power to rule." As I recall, our system is one where the President governs rather than rules, and he does so only at the sufferance of the People.

Who lied?
 

how come we know it worked? did Bily bob know it worked- were spank's quotes contrived?

Who lied?
 

Sure, but only if it's guaranteed that I'll move beyond 20 readers per day. My goals aren't that lofty. I'm a realist.

Who lied?
 

We couldn't be sure at the time, but it helps to have picked through the wreckage since then.

Cartoon Justice
 

You see, if Reagan, Ford and Bush I had just listened a little more to Pat Buchanan in choosing their Supreme Court nominees, we wouldn't have this problem. After all, a majority of the five justices who bitch-slapped your boy were Republican appointees.

Luckily, "W" is right there with you in Pat's court.




Edited to add elipses - because I like elipses.