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Diane_Keaton 12-02-2004 04:34 PM

Warm and Fuzzy Holiday Moment #1
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
During this Holiday season, I find it appropriate to share stories of warm family moments throughout the world. [IMG]
I THINK this is a warm family moment. Though I can't say for sure.
http://smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpictur...camel-01,0.jpg

Tyrone Slothrop 12-02-2004 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
You can start your list with Chirac, Galloway, Nader, . . .
Those of you -- you know who you are -- who assumed that Scottish MP George Galloway was guilty of being in the pay of Saddam Hussein, based on the stories about him back during the war, owe him an apology. He just won a 150,000 Pound judgment for libel against the Daily Telegraph for the stories.

[Also posted this in a closed thread, sorry.]

Gattigap 12-02-2004 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Those of you -- you know who you are -- who assumed that Scottish MP George Galloway was guilty of being in the pay of Saddam Hussein, based on the stories about him back during the war, owe him an apology. He just won a 150,000 Pound judgment for libel against the Daily Telegraph for the stories.

[Also posted this in a closed thread, sorry.]
I hadn't heard that. You know, there are few emptier feelings than the realization of missed opportunities for scorn, ridicule and hatred. Think of all the golf and whiskey we could've banned!

Tyrone Slothrop 12-02-2004 05:27 PM

Question
 
If Iraq is a sovereign country, why is Bush the one to decide if Iraqi elections will happen in late January? Isn't he showing tremendous disrespect for Allawi by doing this? Doesn't it hurt our efforts to win the war to have the President making public statements indicating that Allawi is a puppet?

sgtclub 12-02-2004 05:31 PM

Question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If Iraq is a sovereign country, why is Bush the one to decide if Iraqi elections will happen in late January? Isn't he showing tremendous disrespect for Allawi by doing this? Doesn't it hurt our efforts to win the war to have the President making public statements indicating that Allawi is a puppet?
No. Allawi is for January elections as well.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-02-2004 05:50 PM

Question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
No. Allawi is for January elections as well.
Oh. So when Bush said, "Well, first of all, the elections should not be postponed. It's time for the Iraqi citizens to go to the polls, and that's why we are very firm on the January 30th date," what he was really just trying to express support for whatever Allawi decides.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 12-02-2004 05:55 PM

Question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If Iraq is a sovereign country, why is Bush the one to decide if Iraqi elections will happen in late January? Isn't he showing tremendous disrespect for Allawi by doing this? Doesn't it hurt our efforts to win the war to have the President making public statements indicating that Allawi is a puppet?
As a sovereign nation, we can pull our troops out when we begin to think a nation is sticking it to us.

ltl/fb 12-02-2004 05:56 PM

Question
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
we can pull . . . out when . . . [someone] is sticking it to us.
god, you are so hot today.

Sidd Finch 12-02-2004 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
On a historical note, foster kids, espeically foster kids that won't be going back to their parents and are unlikely to be adopted have been great research subjects, because they are generally in controlled conditions, so it's easy to compare and contrast.
Plus no one quite cares enough to complain.

Seriously -- I know nothing about medical research beyond that it involved nude mice (heh-heh). Is this sort of thing -- testing drugs on children without them knowing about it -- normal? Who consents on behalf of a foster child?

I am reminded of the Tuskegee syphillis experiments. Is that wrong?

Tyrone Slothrop 12-02-2004 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I am reminded of the Tuskegee syphillis experiments. Is that wrong?
If I were fringey, I'd be miffed that you picked that moment to mention it.

ltl/fb 12-02-2004 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If I were fringey, I'd be miffed that you picked that moment to mention it.
What moment?

Since the state is their legal guardian, I believe the state would consent, yes?

Replaced_Texan 12-02-2004 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Plus no one quite cares enough to complain.

Seriously -- I know nothing about medical research beyond that it involved nude mice (heh-heh). Is this sort of thing -- testing drugs on children without them knowing about it -- normal? Who consents on behalf of a foster child?

I am reminded of the Tuskegee syphillis experiments. Is that wrong?
Whoever is the guardian consents on behalf of the children. My guess is that it's generally a foster-parent, who has competing interests (especially if there is a chance of an accusation of child-abuse for withholding consent). I haven't seen the documentary, so I'm not sure if consent is given by individuals or a system.

The thing is, clinical trial research should never be presented to anyone as beneficial to the subject. If I am testing out a new anti-depressant, I should go into the study aware that I'm not taking the drug to be treated for depression. I'm merely testing the drug. It may work, it may not work; and I shouldn't rely on my being part of the clincial trial for my treatment (though I may have to alter my treatment in order to test out the drug). If I suffer adverse effects from testing, I should be discontinued from the study and then treated for depression in another way. Meaningful consent has not been given if the subject thinks that they will benefit from participating in the study.

Some human subject research on foster-children is probably a good idea, especially public health and education research (all of that would generally have to go through an IRB for approval first). So if some researcher wanted to look into, say, the exercise habits of foster children or their relative general health, I'd have no problem with the study going forward. It's also possible that this particular population is the only population that can test pediatric HIV drugs. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if kids with HIV are more likely to be the offspring of IV drug users who ultimately lose custody. (Though my guess is that the demographics of HIV positive people has changed dramatically in the last five to eight years. My public health announcement of the day: use a condom. HIV infections are on the rise in the straight population in the US.) If there's no other population to test potentially beneficial drugs on, then it makes sense to go ahead with clincial trials, under very controlled circumstances. If I were sitting on an IRB approving this type of trial, I'd be looking for all sorts of protections on the kids. The BBC synopsis made it sound like adverse events were not being reported as such, which is just bad research.

ltl/fb 12-02-2004 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Whoever is the guardian consents on behalf of the children. My guess is that it's generally a foster-parent, who has competing interests (especially if there is a chance of an accusation of child-abuse for withholding consent). I haven't seen the documentary, so I'm not sure if consent is given by individuals or a system.

The thing is, clinical trial research should never be presented to anyone as beneficial to the subject. If I am testing out a new anti-depressant, I should go into the study aware that I'm not taking the drug to be treated for depression. I'm merely testing the drug. It may work, it may not work; and I shouldn't rely on my being part of the clincial trial for my treatment (though I may have to alter my treatment in order to test out the drug). If I suffer adverse effects from testing, I should be discontinued from the study and then treated for depression in another way. Meaningful consent has not been given if the subject thinks that they will benefit from participating in the study.

Some human subject research on foster-children is probably a good idea, especially public health and education research (all of that would generally have to go through an IRB for approval first). So if some researcher wanted to look into, say, the exercise habits of foster children or their relative general health, I'd have no problem with the study going forward. It's also possible that this particular population is the only population that can test pediatric HIV drugs. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if kids with HIV are more likely to be the offspring of IV drug users who ultimately lose custody. (Though my guess is that the demographics of HIV positive people has changed dramatically in the last five to eight years. My public health announcement of the day: use a condom. HIV infections are on the rise in the straight population in the US.) If there's no other population to test potentially beneficial drugs on, then it makes sense to go ahead with clincial trials, under very controlled circumstances. If I were sitting on an IRB approving this type of trial, I'd be looking for all sorts of protections on the kids. The BBC synopsis made it sound like adverse events were not being reported as such, which is just bad research.
Do the kids in question have foster parents? I would think it might be more difficult to find a foster parent for an HIV-positive kid.

Anyway, sounds like good times!

Hank Chinaski 12-02-2004 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Some human subject research on children is probably a good idea,
On Mom and Dad board Fringe admitted that she was a subject in the studies that would eventually prove electro-shock shouldn't be employed on the pubescent. She wasn't a foster child though.

ltl/fb 12-02-2004 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
On Mom and Dad board Fringe admitted that she was a subject in the studies that would eventually prove electro-shock shouldn't be employed on the pubescent. She wasn't a foster child though.
No I didn't. Grow up and learn to flirt directly -- stop with the pigtail pulling.


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