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ltl/fb 01-25-2005 03:10 AM

Ukraine
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
Because I got yelled at by a Ukrainian a few weeks ago: "Ukraine," not "the Ukraine."

The Soviets tacked "the" in front of Ukraine to linguisticly foster the notion that it was a mere territory or region of the soviet union. Ukraine is the name of the sovereign nation.
This has been bugging me for days, but only just got around to tracking down the post. How could Russians, whose language has no articles, have tacked "the" in front of anything?? Did they deliberately do it in languages other than Russian, but not Russian itself?

Does Ukranian have articles?

There's no "the" there.

That is all.

Tyrone Slothrop 01-25-2005 10:53 AM

Ukraine
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
There's no "the" there.
FBOTD.

Secret_Agent_Man 01-25-2005 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Sounds like that's what actually happened, at least on the record (or whatever the proper term is). This is a non-issue, and NW is grasping here.
Look, the whole "jury service" incident itself isn't a big deal, but lying to Congress (if he did so) is supposed to be a big deal.


It seems hard to believe that Gonzales would have so faulty a memory of the only time he went to Court for Bush, but it was years ago -- and in any event he is undoubtedly smart enough that everything he said was literally true.

I think, however, that "misleading" a Congressional committee who is reviewing your nomination should itself be grounds for defeat as a nominee.

If you think that lies to Congress (or misleading Congress) to protect the President from embarassment are OK so long as they match with the "record" you're endorsing a remarkably low standard of conduct for our public servants. Some Clinton nominees were sunk for allegedly lying to the FBI (Cisneros was one -- though he lied to protect himself from embarassment, not out of loyalty to his "padrone"). Any Bush nominees who mislead Congress or the FBI should suffer the same fate.

Of course, given the track record of this Administration . . . .

S_A_M

P.S. Hear about the new request for another $80B for Afghanistan & Iraq? Looks like Larry Lindsey was right in the ballpark about the cost of the war, just as Shalikashvili was about the numbers of troops which would be required for the aftermath. They were, however, way off of the party line. God Bless the USA.

sgtclub 01-25-2005 11:59 AM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
The last time I posted on politics, I think I posted the precursor to this. Basically, google "abortion" and "Roemer" in the google news section and you'll get the background over the last 6 weeks. Lots of surprising names come up in support of tolerance on the position.

I'm not positive, but I think part of the impetus was Kerry's people saying he was surprised at the number of conflicted D constituents who would be a lot less conflicted if the party's position was a bit less strident on this issue.

And then there is the pro-life D Senate minority leader. Its gonna be interesting to see who comes out as the DNC chair.

Hello
There is certainly a movement in the DEM party away from the absolute pro-choice position, which is a good thing for both the DEMs and the country, but I don't think this will become the party orthodoxy without a fight.

sgtclub 01-25-2005 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Look, the whole "jury service" incident itself isn't a big deal, but lying to Congress (if he did so) is supposed to be a big deal.


It seems hard to believe that Gonzales would have so faulty a memory of the only time he went to Court for Bush, but it was years ago -- and in any event he is undoubtedly smart enough that everything he said was literally true.

I think, however, that "misleading" a Congressional committee who is reviewing your nomination should itself be grounds for defeat as a nominee.

If you think that lies to Congress (or misleading Congress) to protect the President from embarassment are OK so long as they match with the "record" you're endorsing a remarkably low standard of conduct for our public servants. Some Clinton nominees were sunk for allegedly lying to the FBI (Cisneros was one -- though he lied to protect himself from embarassment, not out of loyalty to his "padrone"). Any Bush nominees who mislead Congress or the FBI should suffer the same fate.

Of course, given the track record of this Administration . . . .

S_A_M

P.S. Hear about the new request for another $80B for Afghanistan & Iraq? Looks like Larry Lindsey was right in the ballpark about the cost of the war, just as Shalikashvili was about the numbers of troops which would be required for the aftermath. They were, however, way off of the party line. God Bless the USA.
Here's what I think happened. They asked him about it. It was ten years ago, so he had to refresh his memory by reading the transcript. The in chambers stuff was not in the transcript and he forgot it happened.

sgtclub 01-25-2005 12:08 PM

Good News
 
  • With the Shiites on the brink of capturing power here for the first time, their political leaders say they have decided to put a secular face on the new Iraqi government they plan to form, relegating Islam to a supporting role.

    The senior leaders of the United Iraqi Alliance, the coalition of mostly Shiite groups that is poised to capture the most votes in the election next Sunday, have agreed that the Iraqi whom they nominate to be the country's next prime minister would be a lay person, not an Islamic cleric.

    The Shiite leaders say there is a similar but less formal agreement that clerics will also be excluded from running the government ministries.

    "There will be no turbans in the government," said Adnan Ali, a senior leader of the Dawa Party, one of the largest Shiite parties. "Everyone agrees on that."

sgtclub 01-25-2005 12:13 PM

And I Thought Bush Needed a New Communications Director
 
  • "We have declared a bitter war against the principle of democracy and all those who seek to enact it," a speaker identified as Zarqawi said in an audio tape on the Internet.

    "Those who vote... are infidels," he said.

Bad_Rich_Chic 01-25-2005 12:19 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub But then she offered warm words to opponents of abortion and said that faith and organized religion were the "primary" reasons teenagers abstained from sexual relations.
This is obviously idiotic. The absolute far and away primary reason teenagers abstain from sexual relations is they can't find anyone they are willing to have sex with who is willing to have sex with them.

Distant also-rans are (i) fear that one's father/the girl's father will kill them, (ii) difficulty purchasing reliable birth control without parental knowledge, without a car and/or on one's allowance, (iii) vague romantic notions fostered by movies and PG-13 rated romance novels that sex should always be "special" and involve champagne and unicorns and Justin Timberlake and no icky fluids, (iv) abject fear that the object of one's crush will see one naked and laugh and laugh and laugh, and (v) closely related to (iv), fear that you will do it wrong because you have no clue what you are doing. Then comes fear that everyone will find out and think you are a slut, and then, maybe, comes religious conviction.

edited for grammar

sgtclub 01-25-2005 12:22 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
This is obviously idiotic. The absolute far and away primary reason teenagers abstain from sexual relations is they can't find anyone they are willing to have sex with who is willing to have sex with them.

Distant also-rans are (i) fear that one's father/the girl's father will kill them, (ii) difficulty purchasing reliable birth control without parental knowledge, without a car and/or on one's allowance, (iii) vague romantic notions fostered by movies and PG-13 rated romance novels that sex should always be "special" and involve champagne and unicorns and Justin Timberlake and no icky fluids, (iv) abject fear that the object of one's crush will see one naked and laugh and laugh and laugh, and (v) closely related to (iv), fear that you will do it wrong because you have no clue what you are doing. Then comes fear that everyone will find out and think you are a slut, and then, maybe, comes religious conviction.

edited for grammar
Wow! Great list. You seem to have given this a lot of thought. High school not very fun for you?

taxwonk 01-25-2005 12:24 PM

frivolous lawsuits
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Do car companies fight these suits through extended litigation?
Why, yes. In fact, they do. And in some states, they make smaller claims like this even less economical by promoting changes to statutes and court rules requiring the use of expert testimony to prove up virtually any damages for which the plaintiff can't produce a receipt for an out-of-pocket expense.

In other words, don't cry for me, Argentina.

sgtclub 01-25-2005 12:38 PM

frivolous lawsuits
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Adder
And then there is Milberg...
This was my thought exactly. The securities class action bar is a real problem, especially with deriviative actions where there is no fraud. Yes, the shareholders receive some compensation, but it is at the expense of their investment because these suits often times have a crippling effect on companies. The lawyers get phat though.

Replaced_Texan 01-25-2005 12:52 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
There is certainly a movement in the DEM party away from the absolute pro-choice position, which is a good thing for both the DEMs and the country.
Why is this a good thing for the Dems?

Secret_Agent_Man 01-25-2005 01:14 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Why is this a good thing for the Dems?
Because, as John Travolta (as Bill Clinton) noted in the movie "Primary Colors" -- "You have to get elected first, to do anything." (Paraphrase)

Triangulation works. Clinton was a master of it, and Bush II works it well enough to soften the hard, lunatic edges of the GOP. The Democrats need to do more of it to win in 2008.

Al Gore f-d up the 2000 election with a terrible campaign, and one big part of his problem was his effort to become a progressive/populist. "The People Versus the Powerful." What bullshit. Anyway, I think that the tiny margin of defeat in 2000 was horrible for the Democratic Party because it made them think that a lefty-type populist campaign could win. The Dems would be better off now, as a party, if Bush had won in 2000 like he won in 2004.

The hard-core Democratic base of the 1970s and 1980s doesn't exist anymore in sufficient numbers to win a national election. Absolutism is just as obnoxious coming from the left as from the right.

Also -- on an entirely separate point, that F-in Osama bin Laden really screwed the Democrats by giving Bush a reason to matter, but that complaint, while true, is petty and unseemly.

S_A_M

sgtclub 01-25-2005 01:18 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Why is this a good thing for the Dems?
Because the country as a whole does not believe in absolute abortion rights. A majority of the country agrees with the Clinton formulation ("safe and rare") and that limited restrictions like parental notification with judical review are appropriate.

Replaced_Texan 01-25-2005 01:27 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Because the country as a whole does not believe in absolute abortion rights. A majority of the country agrees with the Clinton formulation ("safe and rare") and that limited restrictions like parental notification with judical review are appropriate.
Most people in the country are pro-choice, though.

BTW, parental notification is very expensive.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 01-25-2005 01:33 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Most people in the country are pro-choice, though.

Sure, but it's the middle ground supporting limited abortions, with additional restrictions, that you have to get. So far, it appears the republican absolutist position has more appeal to a larger percentage of that group than the democrat absolutist position. Moving to the middle helps garner support.

Replaced_Texan 01-25-2005 01:38 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Sure, but it's the middle ground supporting limited abortions, with additional restrictions, that you have to get. So far, it appears the republican absolutist position has more appeal to a larger percentage of that group than the democrat absolutist position. Moving to the middle helps garner support.
I guess that I don't see the Democratic, pro-Wade, pro-health-of-the-mother position as absolutist.

What's the middle ground?

ltl/fb 01-25-2005 01:41 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I guess that I don't see the Democratic, pro-Wade, pro-health-of-the-mother position as absolutist.

What's the middle ground?
Oh, you know, nothing onerous. Special licensing for the doctors, a one-week waiting period, permission of the source of the sperm, parental and grandparental and sibling notification, aversion therapy. The usual.

Sexual Harassment Panda 01-25-2005 01:49 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Oh, you know, nothing onerous. Special licensing for the doctors, a one-week waiting period, permission of the source of the sperm, parental and grandparental and sibling notification, aversion therapy. The usual.
There's room for exorcism and dunking in there too.

Hank Chinaski 01-25-2005 01:52 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I guess that I don't see the Democratic, pro-Wade, pro-health-of-the-mother position as absolutist.

What's the middle ground?
No one is saying the Dem's position isn't horribly hypocritical and destined to cause a huge vote for a liberal 3rd candidate in 2008. People are just saying the Dems are making this move for this wrong reason now.

Sidd Finch 01-25-2005 01:57 PM

frivolous lawsuits
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
This was my thought exactly. The securities class action bar is a real problem, especially with deriviative actions where there is no fraud. Yes, the shareholders receive some compensation, but it is at the expense of their investment because these suits often times have a crippling effect on companies. The lawyers get phat though.
The securities class action bar demonstrates the power of the Law of Unintended Consequences. Milberg was always strong, but got a lot stronger after the PSLRA was passed.

sgtclub 01-25-2005 01:58 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Most people in the country are pro-choice, though.

BTW, parental notification is very expensive.
The other side would argue that abortion (with or without notification) has its costs as well.

Shape Shifter 01-25-2005 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Here's what I think happened. They asked him about it. It was ten years ago, so he had to refresh his memory by reading the transcript. The in chambers stuff was not in the transcript and he forgot it happened.
I know you're just a transactional type, but how fucking gullible are you?

Hank Chinaski 01-25-2005 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I know you're just a transactional type, but how fucking gullible are you?
Last night fringey PM'd me to ask me to post something funny. At first i was really complimented, then I found out she also asked nfh, so then I was devastated that she saw us as equals. i now found out she didn't even PM you.

sgtclub 01-25-2005 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I know you're just a transactional type, but how fucking gullible are you?
I wasn't the one that fell for Ty's chinanigans . . .

ETA: Seriously, can you even remember things you worked on in 1996? I can't even remember 2003.

ltl/fb 01-25-2005 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Last night fringey PM'd me to ask me to post something funny. At first i was really complimented, then I found out she also asked nfh, so then I was devastated that she saw us as equals. i now found out she didn't even PM you.
He wasn't around.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 01-25-2005 02:15 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I guess that I don't see the Democratic, pro-Wade, pro-health-of-the-mother position as absolutist.

What's the middle ground?
Obviously polling is a very inexact science, but on the spectrum of possible approaches, from always legal, to legal with restrictions, to legal with significant restrictions (e.g., first trimester only), to illegal except in limited cases (life of mom, rape, incest), to always illegal, one needs to capture that third (middle) group to have a majority of voters in favor of laws at least that liberal.

The real problem is that there's no dominant position--regardless of where the country is, there's a majority to change it, just in different directions.

Shape Shifter 01-25-2005 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
I wasn't the one that fell for Ty's chinanigans . . .

ETA: Seriously, can you even remember things you worked on in 1996? I can't even remember 2003.
96? I can still remember meetings of my torts group from then. I can remember specific times being called on in class. I can remember the Butthole Surfers "Pepper." I don't see how someone would forget what happened when he appeared in court on behalf of a governor.

sgtclub 01-25-2005 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
96? I can still remember meetings of my torts group from then. I can remember specific times being called on in class. I can remember the Butthole Surfers "Pepper." I don't see how someone would forget what happened when he appeared in court on behalf of a governor.
You haven't done enough drugs . . .

Sexual Harassment Panda 01-25-2005 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
You haven't done enough drugs . . .
Gonzales did drugs in 1996? Who knew? And he looks like such a timmy....

Shape Shifter 01-25-2005 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
You haven't done enough drugs . . .
I have never heard that before.

sgtclub 01-25-2005 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I have never heard that before.
well "enough" is a relative term I guess.

sgtclub 01-25-2005 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
Gonzales did drugs in 1996?
Remember, he was working for Bush . . .

Sexual Harassment Panda 01-25-2005 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Remember, he was working for Bush . . .
Bush was doing drugs as late as 1996? Amazing what comes out after the election....

Replaced_Texan 01-25-2005 03:31 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
The other side would argue that abortion (with or without notification) has its costs as well.
That's all very well and good, but the study I cited suggests that parental notification laws and erosion of confidentiality regarding reproductive rights increases teenage pregnancy (hi hello!) and abortion rates.

We should be on the same side here.

sgtclub 01-25-2005 03:33 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
That's all very well and good, but the study I cited suggests that parental notification laws and erosion of confidentiality regarding reproductive rights increases teenage pregnancy (hi hello!) and abortion rates.

We should be on the same side here.
Is that surprising to you?

Replaced_Texan 01-25-2005 03:34 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Is that surprising to you?
Not in the least.

Diane_Keaton 01-25-2005 04:09 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
...that limited restrictions like parental notification with judical review are appropriate.
It has always amazed me that people could so lazily view parental notification as a "limited restriction." That's a big fucking restriction and the only purpose behind it is to hope that a teenager who is knocked up will be too scared her parents will find out she will abort, so she doesn't. Or that the teen who gets preggers and wants to abort will have a pro-life Mom and Dad who will pressure her not to abort. Aborted fetuses don't care whether the aborter's parents have been told, unless the notification is going to change the outcome. It's a shameful restriction that preys on a teen's fears of her parents and reputation, and pits teens and parents against eachother. There is no legitimate reason to narc on a girl getting an abortion. It's not a "middle ground". Just a cheap way to infringe on the right to choose. You can choose, but we're totally going to tell your Dad and Mom. Some fucking limited restriction.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 01-25-2005 04:22 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
That's a big fucking restriction and the only purpose behind it is to hope that a teenager who is knocked up will be too scared her parents will find out she will abort, so she doesn't. Or that the teen who gets preggers and wants to abort will have a pro-life Mom and Dad who will pressure her not to abort. .
Yeah, it's terrible that we might expect a person under 18, with respect to whom in nearly all aspects of life we assume is too young and immature to make fully informed decisions, also to have to consult with her parents on one of the more difficult and gut-wrenching decisions anyone might make.

Diane_Keaton 01-25-2005 04:42 PM

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Yeah, it's terrible that we might expect a person under 18, with respect to whom in nearly all aspects of life we assume is too young and immature to make fully informed decisions, also to have to consult with her parents on one of the more difficult and gut-wrenching decisions anyone might make.
If she wants to abort, then what is the point of requiring her to "consult with her parents"?


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