How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

And presumptively so scared to tell a doctor about it, even in total privacym, that doctors feel they have to ask twelve different ways. What does that tell you about the actual real-life feasibility of having to get parental consent or get up in front of a judge?

ETA I am fine, utterly and completely fine, with even a few HOURS of counseling on STDs and birth control and stuff in connection with any abortion, though it seems silly if the abortion is, say, for the health of the mother and the baby was actually wanted.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Never mind. I googled it. Apparently in several states, even partial emancipation includes the right to make decisions about a pregnancy. Emancipation is a pretty gray area.

(maryland, for example).
http://www.peoples-law.org/children/...tm#What%20does

Classic Response
 

That's a good response.

It appears they dumped the guy who encouraged them to sue Al Franken.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

In Texas, children who have had the disability of minority removed (isn't that a great term of art) do not have to have their abortions reported to their parents.

I forgot in my list above, that kids can consent to some of their own counseling.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

And I'm curious why club is not giving any response about how those kinds of consent are different from consenting to abortion.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Whatever happened to the San Francisco grocery bag debate?

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Yep.

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It makes sense if you understand that I plan on educating all my kids about sex very early on and often, so I would have already had ample opportunity to shape her decision making process on sex, birth control, etc.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

But their friends who have not had the benefit of such excellent parenting?

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Oh I see now. Is that really an option? I always thought it was a scare tactic.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
So you'll go to the gyno with her to get the pill? And weigh the pros and cons of Rickey over Johnny? How sweet.
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And if she doesn't want to talk to you about those decisions, you want the gov't to require her to?

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

I don't understand your question.

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What about them? I was asked I want to play a part in the abortion process but not the sex process.

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That's one way of dealing with any concern contrary to your position -- write it off as a scare tactic.

In your world, parental consent laws lead to happy shiny kids, whose parents always talked with them openly about sex like you plan to, getting sage and kindly advice from mom and dad about the abortion -- advice they never, ever would have sought out without the firm hand of government telling them that they had to before they could seek medical treatment.

Gotcha.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

If I can have sex without parental notification* (and, if I'm over about 14 or so, and the guy isn't too much older than I am, without there being any crime involved), and I can get medical care for my pregnancy without parental consent or notification, and I can get treated for drug and/or alcohol dependency without parental notification, why can't I get an abortion from without parental notification?

*for "notification" read "notification or consent"

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Well, the policy reasons for these sorts of treatment are similar to what we're arguing about abortion. If the kid can't consent for him or herself and has to have a parent involved, he or she may not seek treatment that the state thinks is more important to receive than the consent. Drug and alcohol. Pregnancy. Communicable diseases the kid may have obtained having sex. Suicide counseling. Kids can hide all of these things (including pregnancy in some cases, definitely when pre-natal care is a good idea) from their parents, and the state thinks it's better for them to go ahead and go to the doctor without their parents' involement than not at all.

On a side note, it's frustrating as hell when a pregnant kid wants to skip school. She schedules a physician's appointment, gets the confirmation note and hands it to the school for a legitimate excuse, and she never shows up for the appointment. Her mother calls because kid is having truancy issues, and the clinic has to figure out how much they can tell mom (everything) and whether or not mom can make appointments for pregnant kids that kid has to keep (grey area).

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I want to be notified. I can't force her to talk to me.

Frankly, I can't believe that my position is more "parental" than yours, given that I have no kids. My guess is that you are exploring something here.

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After all this fabulous parenting, you don't trust her? I think Sidd figures that if after all his parenting, she is STILL afraid to tell him or her mom that she is pregnant, he'd rather have her get the abortion if she doesn't want to be pregnant than to end up with an unwanted child just because she wasn't able to talk to him/her mom about it.

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Plus the whole life-endangering aspect of an immature body carrying a baby to term. Hard to get a baby out through small, underdeveloped hips. Hard to have a healthy baby when you are trying to stay skinny so that no one will guess you are pregnant (though, the undernourished kid is easy to slide out through the teensy hips).

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Do you really not see the difference between medical attention, drug treatment, and abortion?

Can't speak to the sex part; I thought it was illegal in most states.

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It's not about trust, it's about capacity. It's also about letting her hear that the planned parenthood counselor's view is not the only view out there.

Sidd is placing a lot of responsbility and stress on a person that likely is not suited to handle it. I don't believe that he would really handle it that way, though it makes a good argument for him.

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You are conflacting issues here. This is not an abortion debate per se.

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A 14-y-o can generally have sex with another 14-y-o. By the time you hit 16, definitely in pretty much every state. 16 or 17 is even the age of consent in most places. And, in any event, it's just ILLEGAL whether or not there is parental notification or consent.

Can you really not understand that most parents are not the perfect parents you theoretically will be?

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It's also possible that one of the parents (or another family member) is the father of the fetus.

BTW, when I was in high school, most of the girls had donated to a fund (I think it cost $272 to have an abortion back then) and we'd worked out a list of fake names and addresses to give to the clinic to send notifications. I don't know how many girls ended up using the fund. I can't imagine that kids nowadays aren't doing the same thing.

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I was making the point that Sidd may be more trusting of the way that he brings up his daughter, and more concerned about her health and the health of any grandchild that might be born, than he is about being notified of her desire to get an abortion if she finds herself pregnant at an early age.

By saying this, I am indeed implying that you are more concerned about being notified than you are about the health of your daughter or the health of the unwanted-by-its-mother grandchild that would result if your daughter wanted an abortion, was for whatever irrational teenaged reason unwilling to tell you about it, and was therefore unable to get the abortion.

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Sure, but until you start licensing parents, one ought to presume they're better than nothing. If one can show the presumption doesn't apply, then you've got a judge or a family member in many states.

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Well, fringy seems to be advocating abortions for all minors without broad hips.

I'm sure, of course, that a 17 y.o. will be thinking first and foremost when considering an abortion about the width of her hips.

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See above re: access to a court for people in sparsely populated areas.

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Fuck you. I am saying that Sidd is more worried about the health of his kid than knowing everything about her life because he doesn't truly trust that he brought her up right.

OF COURSE in an ideal world all children would trust their parents and all parents would be worthy of that trust. But what the fuck kind of fucked up kids do you think you end up with when some kid is forced to have a baby?

OK, I officially give up.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Didn't she hear your point of view over and over again when you gave her all the sex talks back in kindergarden? Obviously, if she's going to the abortion clinic behind your back, communication has broken down. Why would she be more receptive to your view only when she's caught trying to avoid it? And what are you going to do when she says "thanks dad, but I've given it a lot of thought, and I'm going to have the abortion"? Lock her in her room until the second trimester? Yell at her until she changes her mind?

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I did. what about the people in the city. yours is an "as applied" objection, not facial.

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We had that too. Abortion was illegal at the time, so we called it the "Buffalo Fund".

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I thought all females are just fetus farms.

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OK, conlaw guy. So let's have that notification rule apply only to underaged females living in urban areas. Will that pass constitutional muster?

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I don't think parental notification laws (or their lack) can be blamed for more than a few % of the fucked up people in the U.S.

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Well that's good to know. I don't think any single reason can be blamed for more than a few % of the fucked up people in the U.S. So let's not do anything about anything.

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since broader ones do, of course. But you're missing the point (or ignoring it). Your objection doesn't resolve the larger percentage of instances when getting a judge doesn't present teh same problem. You're nibbling at the fringes of the issue. At least RT is going to the core of the question, which is whether notification/consent adds sufficient value to offset its costs.

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i blame general idiocy for a lot.

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It appears I need to specifically say that I agree with everything RT has said, and I am presenting additonal reasons, not saying my reasons are better than hers. They aren't.

WHY are we having this discussion the day after I had fabulous sex? It has totally ruined the glow.

And, yes, we were very safe. But if by some miracle I am now pregnant, I will not be telling my parents about my abortion.

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To me, this is one of the many specific idiocies that combine to make general idiocy.