How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

I don't think miracle is the word you're looking for here.

But congrats on getting laid. Kudos as well for its being fabulous.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

No, I realize miracle was the wrong word. "Miracle of bad luck," maybe.

I believe a poll may be forthcoming on the FB.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Nope -- not exploring anything at all. I believe in this very firmly. (eta: SOmetimes, club, when people say they disagree with you, it's not to make conversation, and it's not dishonest, and it's not motivated by some ugly hidden ideology. You consistently seem unable to grasp that.)

If my daughter (hypothetical at the moment, but not for long) wanted an abortion, I hope to hell that she would talk to me about it.

But if I'd been born a girl, and I had to have an abortion, I would not have told my parents. And if I had been required to, I don't know what I would have done -- but the chances are good I would have been thrown out of the house, if they had found out. Or forced to keep the baby I didn't want.

Or, I could have gone to a judge and hoped to prove, somehow, that although I'd never reported any physical abuse by my parents I had in fact suffered such abuse, and that such abuse was particularly drastic when my parents began to think I might be having sex, and if you threw pregnancy and abortion into the mix it would be a particularly explosive situation. And maybe the judge would believe that from a 16 yo pregnant girl about her well respected, professional parents (who just happened to have some dirty laundry that never got washed out in public).

If I'm a shitty enough parent to put my daughter in the position where she doesn't feel she can or should discuss this -- or any other major decision -- with me, then that is my problem, and probably my fault. I don't think the government is capable of fixing that lack of communication, trust, whatever in my family. And I don't want the government to try.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

ding ding ding. We have a winner.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

I guess this all comes down to how mature we each view this hypothetical teen. You, RT, and Fringe all seem to think that her failure to consult with you or your wife is based on faulty parenting. I think there are a whole host of reasons why this could be the case, including, that she is just embarassed about it bringing it up, but would really like to have the support/discussion anyway. I am also concerned that, even if the capacity is there, that a teen may not be getting enough information upon which to make an informed decision. I don't trust planned parenthood or any of the various right to life groups to give her that information on an honest basis.

Again, I am not a parent, but I have been around children, and it is often necessary to prod them to talk about even mundane topics, let alone topics as important as abortion. As a parent, I would like the option to do that prodding.

I also think that there is a tremendous difference between a 17 year old and a 14 year old. I am not as concerned with the former as with the latter, and maybe that is what is driving our respective views.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

You are willing to sacrifice her health for an opportunity to prod? You can prod all you want. If you are that close to your theoretical kid, you should be able to figure out that there is something wrong.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

FWIW, I agree with this. The younger the kid, the more likely I'm supportive of parental notification. My clients regularly treat 12 and 13 year old moms to be. Some of them are not old enough to understand that they're pregnant, much less make decisions about the pregnancy.

FWIW, this is the fact sheet on abortion for minors from Planned Parenthood in Houston. I think it's pretty good. It's also useful that PP offers prenatal care if the kid decides to go through with the pregnancy.

http://www.pphouston.org/site/PageSe...ntnotification

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Who said anything about sacrificing health? This is particularly annoying because I think by my posts you can see that I'd take a thoughtful and sensitive approach to this, why you got to go to the extremes on me? As to your second point, you are obviously not a parent.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

You aren't a parent either, according to you.

If for whatever irrational reason she does not trust you, and hides the pregnancy from you for some extended period of time, do you think that carrying a baby to term is healthy for a 13-y-o? Or that it wouldn't be safer to get the abortion earlier rather than later, after she works up the courage to talk to you?

Luckily you will have the perfect relationship, and she will come to you as soon as she first has sex, even if she is molested by her teacher who has convinced her it's her own fault.

And since the system will work for you, it should apply to all girls.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Hunh. And here I thought you just wanted the ability to go shoot some doctors.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Can't one just keep a good count of the Tampex each month?

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

KILLING DOCTORS KILLS PHYSICIANS!

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

You're going to start me on my rant about how tampax should be free and plentiful in bathrooms throughout the land. At the very least, it should be exempt from sales tax.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

That is an excellent idea, Hank. Thanks.

See club? You don't need to be notified. Just keep the sanitary materials in a locked cabinet. If she hasn't requested the key in four weeks, start grilling her.

It helps to lock her in a cold, dark room and withhold food.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Ain't no right to sanitary napkins in no prenubra of no fucking amendments.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

What if the girl notifies the parents and they force her to get an abortion. Are you cool with that?

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Once again, I am done with you, because you can't have a rational discussion without making those that don't agree with you into villians.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

That is a very interesting question, that I hadn't thought of. Let me think about it, but something certainly bothers me about saying yes.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

What would she notify her parents of? Simply that she's pregnant?

This is an entirely different question, closely akin to whether men should be able to force women to get abortions if they don't want the child and aren't willing to support it. Get BRC here before we start up with that one.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

I think it all comes down to whether government should assume the role of parent. Or whether government should presume that all parents -- including those of 14 yo girls who get pregant and don't want to talk to their parents before getting abortions -- are really good parents. (Burger -- I think -- suggested this, and said it was a rebuttable presumption. I suppose he will support providing paid representation for the 14 so that she can marshall her evidence and presentation to the court, right?)

Does this 14 yo really want to talk to her parents, but needs a push to do so? That may well be the case, but if I'm a good parent who is involved with her life then there will be opportunities for her to talk to me, or for me to see something is wrong and give her a push. The idea of government forcing her to talk to me -- something she really, truly may not want, and may have very good reasons for not wanting (but not sufficient evidence to convince a trier of fact, especially when appearing in pro per -- is what I think is wrong.

My sister was not particularly mature when she was 15. If she'd gotten pregnant and had an abortion, she would have been absolutely nuts to discuss it with my parents. Yet, I doubt she could have convinced a court to waive the requirement. Perhaps an abortion provider, or some other counselor, should have suggested that she really should talk to her parents. But she should not have been forced to do so.


eta an important missing phrase.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

If she does not abort, the parents will be constructively notified soon enough.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

What further information? How fast the zygote will fly through the tube? I have not heard anyone articulate what further information a parent would have on the abortion. And whoever on here said he'd shoot the person who gave his daughter an abortion without first asking his permission: it's a little late for the shotgun unless you are planning a shotgun wedding. Get used to the idea that your kids may go and do something legal (yes, abortion is legal) without your permission. You can't force your daughter to bear a child full term so your "permission" is futile. It sucks not having 100% rights over your property, but that's how it is (in states with no parental consent requirement). If you really want your kids to have some sort of additional information about abortion which you claim is so important that they have -- so much that you support parental notification for this reason -- then sit her down now and tell her everything you want her to know about abortion. Renew the discussion every year so it's fresh. Then when and if she ever decides to go for an abortion she'll have all this knowledge already.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

I'm really backward. I think a woman's place is in the cave.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Surely a 14 year old is not, and should not be, capable of consenting to raising a child, right?

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

I like this idea best of all. Let's require that all parents have the conversation they want to have with their kids if their kids get pregnant, whether or not the kids are pregnant. Then when a minor gets pregnant, we can just assume that they have had the benefits of parental advice, and skip the notification step.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Um....whiff. But that's ok. :)

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Well, my concerns about child labor in asia have been mollified by this debate.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Nah - with paper abortions, men can be free of unwanted children without the woman having to get an abortion. (Sidd, have you had the opportunity to use the phrase with a assoc. yet?) That sidesteps the question of whether people should have a right to control whether they have biological offspring, regardless of their parental responsibilities thereto, but nevermind.
2. In fact, you can skip the requirement. The discussion should be presumed. If it hasn't occurred, we can determine conclusively that the parents are bad parents and should have their parental rights terminated, meaning they wouldn't get notification anyhow.

FWIW, I seem to recall reading that, back in the day when abortions were generally illegal but for the health of the mother, a not uncommon "health issue" was the mother being suicidal at the idea of being pregnant & having a kid. So in some cases women could get abortions by asserting that they thought they just might kill themselves if they had to stay pregnant. I wonder if a kid can be excused from current notification requirements on the grounds that they'd rather kill themselves? In any event, it would seem to be a possible escape hatch - until you get the busy-body who then decides that what you need is involuntary incarceration in the looney hatch because you are a danger to yourself instead of an abortion. Given the number of deaths pre-Roe from botched illegal, unprofessional or self-induced abortions, I suspect that escape hatch wasn't very useful, anyhow.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

This is lame, and is primarily the kind of viewpoint Hilary Clinton wants to overshadow in order to remove abortion as the Achilles heel of the Dems. This all-out devotion to the idea of "choice" at the expense of logic leaves you looking fanatical and unrealistic.

You have a minor who wants a medical procedure performed on her, which can have long-lasting consequences both emotional and physical. Many states don't allow her to get her ears pierced without parental permission, but your blind service to "choice" warrants an exception here? I think not.

As a law student, I clerked for the only judge around who would hear the bypass motions. We did about forty per year. He would ask why they needed to keep this from their parents. Generally, the answer was "well, like, my mom and dad would be really pissed at me". He'd ask them about violence - past, present, fear of - and there would be nothing. (Believe me - the very few times when there was a real danger, the accompanying PP social worker would be all over it - "father has been reported to the police in the past for screaming at daughter", "father has been accused of slapping daughter" - so, it's not that the judge just wasn't getting a response.) He'd almost always sign off on the request. My impression was usually that, if the parents got notified, the kid would simply accept it and move on, but the PP worker would have a flaming cow.

They're kids. There are adequate safeguards for when they have good reason not to go to their parents. We don't nudge the parents out of the picture merely to serve your social causes. It was dangerous, back in junior high, to tell your parents that you got caught with a joint - but they didn't give us the secrecy option for that. I think you value this "choice" concept higher than you value the lives of all the kids who need parental presence in this situation.

(ETA - I should have STPed before posting. Looks like all this ground got covered yesterday. Never mind.)

I love fafblog
 

I love fafblog
 

Is it true the Kennedy family lobbied for a Supreme Court ruling that passengers are not "alive" until they leave your vehicle?

International Tax
 

International Tax
 

I take it you admire his bold vision and his willingness to try new solutions involving internation cooperation to solve international problems?

Anti-Semitism
 

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

If I'm 17 and want an abortion, who is some stodgy Legislator to tell me I need to go tell some old judge who will then decide whether narc'ing to my parents is a good idea and whether my reasons are "adequate" for wanting to keep it from them. If my parents cannot overrule my decision then what's the point? And knock it off with the "getting caught with a joint" stuff. Smoking dope is illegal; abortion is not. And I don't get what you mean by: "We don't nudge the parents out of the picture merely to serve your social causes." Did I miss the law that prohibited kids from talking about their abortions with the parents? Who is the "we" that you contend are nudging parents out of the picture?

The pregnant person should decide whether they want to discuss the issue with the parent. And if I don't want to tell my parents that I will be getting an abortion for the reason that they will be "really really pissed", fuck your old judge if he thinks that is not a "good enough" reason. Maybe I think that apprising my parents that I got pregnant and aborted will negatively affect my relationship with my parents for the rest of my life and I don't want that to happen. If so, who are you to second guess me? And do you really think picking up the phone and calling a parent to say ,

"Hi. Your kid is going to get an abortion and there's nothing you can do about it. Just callin, Mr. Smith, to let y'all know that, eh?"

is going to help in the parent-child relationship, you're smoking dope (NTTAWWT). And as I (and Ty) have said before, if you are so concerned about a parent being able to provide info to a kid about abortion, why not do it now?

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

PS: Speaking of "looking fanatical and unrealistic", how realistic is it to compare ear piercing laws to abortion notification laws? I don't think ears are pierced by medical doctors (usually). I also don't think getting one's ears pierced carries with it the same emotional charge that may cause a pregnant person to want to keep their abortion private. In any event, where did you hear that I have sponsored or supported a state ear piercing notification law? I have not, so there is no hypocrisy in my views.

This means war!
 

Honest question, no underlying inuendos:

Is Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11 of the Constitution obsolete? Why doesn't Congress declare war anymore?

I always sort of wonder if a little more precision should be made when I hear government officials say "we're at war..." etc. without there ever having been al declaration of war from Congress.

ETA: I understand the War Powers Act and relevant court rulings, but I'm still not sure why Congress isn't in the war declaring business anymore. It also bothers me that a specific, relatively unambiguous clause in the Constitution is so readily ignored.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

17? Maybe. The average age I saw in chambers was 13. I would have rather not told my parents about joints back in those days, too - it would adversely affect my relationship with them! But, still, I was a kid, and they were my parents.

We have a Constitutional right to free speech, too, but no one ever questioned my parents' right to forbid me from publishing anti-Catholic tracts.

So, who am I to second-guess my kid? Um, one of her parents. I think that we just profoundly disagree on the role of parents in a kid's life.

This means war!
 

Speed, efficiency, and the willingness of Congress to grab a deal that allows them to NOT get criticized for allowing war. (i.e., the WPA.) Without the WPA, Congress would have had to vote on the Iraq invasion. Can you imagine the scrambling they'd do to avoid that vote?

Heck, we do unconstitutional delegations of power all the time. (Look at federal regulatory agencies acting administratively.) That's all the WPA (arguably) was.

How Will This Play and What is Going on Here?
 

Tats and ear rings she can get later, once she is 18, if you refuse now. That abortion thing is time sensitive. And if a parent refuses medical treatment (see Christian Scientists) for their kids, the State will step in.

I mean I see your point, and for any decent parent the devastating thing wouldn't be the pregnancy news, the devastating thing would be to learn she didn't think she could tell you. But abortion is different then the examples you bring up- if for no other reason that it is so emotionally charged an issue (which was one of your original points).