more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

I have a crush on you. Can you confirm it's a mancrush? (Avatars can be deceptive, and I've been burned before.)

God Bless RWR and godspeed to the pearly gates
 

Does this mean they will be going to hell, or just a reference to gonorrhea?

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

The ball that floated by you a few posts ago was an attempt at understatement. (I've also written about this elsewhere on the boards, so I assumed this was more or less general knowledge).

To the extent that it matters to have this discussion, I was born, raised, and went to school in, the South. You? We can compare our dirt-road cred if need be.

The reason that I found your declaration silly was the proposition that Southerners' love of God and country (while certainly true in itself) somehow overpowers their taste for pork, and that they're less interested in pork than in other areas of the country. Ain't so.

Were it so, we wouldn't have Southern politicians so skilled at, and dedicated to, acquiring it for their constitutents, and trumpeting it to the heavens. Strom Thurmond is one prototypical example:
Were we so inclined, we could Google and read about the space center and facilities in Houston and in Alabama, the freakin' TVA, the naval base in Charleston (may she rest in peace), and any other number of examples of pork. Whether in the form of a barrel stuffed with federal dollars, or pulled and doused in vinagar on a bun, Southerners like their pork as much as anyone.

Gattigap

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

Dang, thought I was talking to a guy from Boston. Whose the liberal from Boston? Is that GGG?

I was born elsewhere (Dad in military), but raised and went to school in the south. Live in CA now.

I think this is so.



[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gattigap
Were it so, we wouldn't have Southern politicians so skilled at, and dedicated to, acquiring it for their constitutents, and trumpeting it to the heavens. Strom Thurmond is one prototypical example: I didn't say they weren't interested in it at all.


Liking pork doesn't mean that they don't vote more for bigger principles. I didn't say that they hated pork barrel spending.

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

Heh. No, after the Tiannamen Square incident on FL, he's retired and sipping bourbon at Rowan Oak.

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

You forgot the hot sauce.

Great story - for more than one reason
 

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBLBPU0BVD.html

• Lutheran Minister Who Said God Doesn't Exist Is Suspended Again
  
  COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) - The Lutheran minister who proclaimed last year there was no God or afterlife was suspended for a second time Thursday for ignoring church orders not to repeat those beliefs from the pulpit.
  
  Helsingoer Bishop Lise-Lotte Rebel suspended the Rev. Thorkild Grosboell, pastor of Taarbaek, and handed his case to the government "requesting that it take the necessary steps."
  
  In Denmark, Lutheran ministers are employed by the state and only the government can fire them and only with a recommendation from their presiding bishop. Rebel oversees the diocese that includes Taarbaek, a small town north of Copenhagen.
  
  Grosboell has been under Rebel's strict supervision since he first was suspended after a May 2003 interview in which he said "there is no heavenly God, there is no eternal life, there is no resurrection."
  
  About 85 percent of Danes belong to the state Evangelical Lutheran Church, though just 5 percent attend church services regularly.
  
  Grosboell eventually retracted his statement and apologized for what Rebel had termed "provocative" remarks. His suspension was lifted.
  
  Yet, he repeated those beliefs in past weeks.
  
  "I expected he would change his mind," the bishop said in a statement Thursday.
  
  Grosboell "again has spoken in a strongly provocative, hurting and confusing way," Rebel said.
  
  She cited an undated but recent sermon in which Grosboell allegedly said, "God had abdicated in favor of his son, hence in our favor. Therefore there is no longer a heavenly guarantee or an interfering might, there is only the godly kingdom (on earth) that is achieved by us and between us. So if it fails, there is nothing."
  
  The sermon was "clearly incompatible with the state church's faith," the bishop said.
  
  Rebel concluded that Grosboell "had disregarded the state church's basis for belief, undermined his duty's respect and confidence, disregarded the official order (and) caused a deep confusion about the state church."
  
  Grosboell responded by saying he was puzzled.
  
  "Basically, I can only say that I still don't understand what she means and talks about," he told The Associated Press, adding there was "nothing concrete" in her order. He did not deny giving the sermon.

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

No, you said that they like the Republican plan for America as much as, and probably more than, pork barrel spending.

If we wish to take the discussion beyond the "well, I just think so" level, I'm all ears if you have an idea for how to measure it, other than your original reference to sacrificing pork in pursuit of these loftier goals.

The grasses are still flattened from this well-trod trail, but as one example, Thurmond switched from Dem to Rep, so maybe it was his Republican Plan for America that convinced people to start voting for him (whoops! continue voting for him.) Or, maybe it was his legendary attention to his consituents, and his skill at obtaining pork.

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

I can confirm I am a man. I'm sure Hank will chime in that while he believe I may be a male, he's seen no evidence that I'm really what you'd call a man.

That's okay, because I can post his shit up all day and cram his week ass shots back down his throat.

Why isn't AG talkin' bout this?
 

Y'know, you've said that phrase a thousand times, but I have yet to see an article from any newsworthy source (Rush doesn't count) saying that "panties on heads" was the limit of what US soldiers did at Abu Ghraib...... or even that they used this method of interrogation at all.

So, cite please. And I'll match that cite with the cites about the torturing to death of a uniformed Iraqi officer (uniformed meaning undoubtedly entitled to the protections of the GC) -- y'know, the one the Army first classifed as "natural causes" (I guess it is entirely natural that, if you are bound and gagged in a sleeping bag and beaten on for a few hours, you'll die. That's probably what they meant).


And one more question -- one that I'll keep asking until the Repubs here start answering it -- what would your reaction have been if Pfc Jessica Lynch had been stripped naked, gagged with her own panties, and dragged by a leash through the streets of Baghdad? Fraternity prank, or evidence of Iraqi barbarity?

The Harare, the Harare.
 

Ty, that's just not true. Huge portions of the black populace were starving, or were severely malnourished because Zimbabwe's farmland was devoted to tobacco or to corn (and people cannot survive on cornmeal). Why do you think people were demanding land reform if food was plentiful.


No dispute there. Nor do I dispute that Mugabe denied food to the Ndebele (I've never heard that claim before, even from Ndebele partisans, but I don't particularly doubt it). Nor do I dispute that this is genocide.

But, again -- what would you do? It seems that your answer is "there wasn't any problem to address," yet I cannot believe that you are so ignorant.

The Harare, the Harare.
 

No one has claimed that it was.


Either when the whites did it, or when the blacks did.

Iron Lady
 

She looks good compared to what you've been looking at lately?



Note: Someone stole my login and typed that.

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

He is, but that's just a front. Gatti was born and raised and remains in Saskatchewan, or however you spell that.

Duck!!!
 

One word. Kevlar.

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

I invented claiming a poster was from an obscure Canadian Province.

btw its budhists who are offended by having bare feet pointed at them, I believe I said muslems yesterday.

Duck!!!
 

Concur. If Ty doesn't frag him first, after that "I cannot believe that you are so ignorant" line.

Apropos of nothing, I learned in college that with 50 lbs of pressure and a quarter-turn, a man's ear comes right off. Show a man his ear, fight's pretty much over. A word to the wise is sufficient.

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

Arabs, Hank. The word you're looking for is Arabs.

Duck!!!
 

"AON," my butt.

Do you sell nun-chuks from the trunk of your car, too, just in case someone's got an itch they need to scratch?

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

To quote my lovely daughter, "You don't know the World"

Actually I was aware of Thai buddhists being offended. You can't wear shoes in temples, but you have to wear socks. If its Arabs also, I wasn't aware. that's just an additional reason the avatar is inappropriate.

The Harare, the Harare.
 

Cite, please. Then compare it to, e.g., this article from The Economist in 2002 titled "From breadbasket to basket case" or this report from the State Department titled "Zimbabwe's Manmade Crisis" ("Zimbabwe exported food and imported some of Africa’s brightest young minds. Today, Zimbabwe cannot grow enough food to feed itself and a bankrupt treasury cannot finance critical imports of food and fuel."). Export crops like tobacco bring in money that can be used to pay for food. Many more blacks have lost their jobs than whites have lost their farms in the last few years.

I didn't say that there isn't any problem to address. For the first several years he was in power, Mugabe had found a way to accommodate whites and blacks, to a remarkable degree. This changed when his hold on power started to slip. A more gifted leader would have tried to find a more pragmatic way to address the legitimate push for land reform, but we all know this is not what Mugabe was after.

I don't know what we can do. I'm the one who is skeptical, on practical grounds, of U.S. intervention to depose foreign despots. Bilmore, OTOH, presumably thinks we should be invading Zimbabwe to stop Mugabe from killing his own people, and yet he would rather recycle his old talking points about Josh Marshall.

Duck!!!
 

Come out to SF. There are some real hotties here, as I'm sure you would agree.

Ron and Mikhail's Excellent Adventure
 

Ron and Mikhail's Excellent Adventure: How Reagan won the Cold War

Something in here for all sides.

The Harare, the Harare.
 

Yes and no. The government's inability (by treaty) to do land reform was a huge problem for many in the black population.

As for people starving? Saw them. Met the people who worked with them. Cites from the Economist are not particularly compelling -- I like the magazine but it tends to elevate the ability to produce commodities over the ability tof feed and employ people. Zimbabwe exported corn to Mozambique and Botswana, primarily. That did not enable it to feed its people.

Best and brightest minds coming to Zimbabwe? Yes and no. Many of those minds stayed in Zimbabwe because they were forbidden from going into South Africa (pre-Mandela). Zimbabwe also had the burden of an enormously high level of education and literacy without any jobs or viable industries to put those people to work.

Huge agrarian population with no viable farmland to work? 1% of farmers owning 80% of arable land in a country with virtually no industry (save a few coal mines)? I don't know the solution either. Yes, it's not having a corrupt despot take the land for his cronies. Nor, though, is it the Takings Clause.

Duck!!!
 

Oh, that is so sweet. Thank you, Ty. And here I thought you were mad at me. Muuuwah!

Ron and Mikhail's Excellent Adventure
 

Even the most passionate of Reagan lovers (Hi Hello!) would admit that Gorby played a role. The relationship between Gorby and RR was no secret. But Gorby played a role because Reagan convinced him to.

Ron and Mikhail's Excellent Adventure
 

I'd say that comes as close to getting it right of all articles I've read recently.

The Harare, the Harare.
 

Here ya go.


http://www.fao.org/docrep/W0078E/w00...#P12174_715136


A report identifying average calories per day as of 1992. Zimbabwe is on a par with Angola (if you know anything about Africa, you will understand what being on a par with Angola in 1992 means) and below Sudan.


Are things worse now? Abso-fucking-lutely. But that's not the question I was trying to ask.

The Harare, the Harare.
 

[confidential to Sidd]Sit tight. I have it on good authority that once we stabilize the middle east, asia and africa are next. Just keep voting Republican, DYKWIM?[/confidential to Sidd]

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

And wasn't it Phil Gramm who once bragged that he brought home so much pork that he was in danger of getting trichinosis?

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

Indeed. And even Newt stopped attacking New York for sucking on the federal welfare tit after Moynihan (?) pointed out that New York has been subsidizing Georgia for 200 years.

The Harare, the Harare.
 

Um ...... hoooooooo'kay.

As an aside, though, remember that your neocons aren't doing so well these days:

Keep the faith (Feith?), fellas. But look out for that cow!


http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictur...il/lavache.jpg

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

You say subsidization. I say War Reparations.

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

Fucking Georgians. I blame Shevardnadze.

The Harare, the Harare.
 

Check the news lately? Things in Iraq are going pretty well now.

The Harare, the Harare.
 

Well, the quote was from today's paper.

more evidence of Reagan's cunning and determination
 

We went to war with Georgia 200 years ago?


Obviously you aren't talking about the Civil War -- the South started that one. To the victor, the spoils.*




*for better or worse, as GWB is learning.

The Harare, the Harare.
 

Morning edition or afternoon?

Ya gotta keep up to keep up, Gatti.

times have changed
 

Andrew Sullivan posted this excerpt from a 1982 press conference. This sort of exchange would be inconceivable now.

• Q: Larry, does the President have any reaction to the announcement from the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta, that AIDS is now an epidemic and have over 600 cases?
  MR. SPEAKES: What's AIDS?
  Q: Over a third of them have died. It's known as "gay plague." (Laughter.) No, it is. I mean it's a pretty serious thing that one in every three people that get this have died. And I wondered if the President is aware of it?
  MR. SPEAKES: I don't have it. Do you? (Laughter.)
  Q: No, I don't.
  MR. SPEAKES: You didn't answer my question.
  Q: Well, I just wondered, does the President ...
  MR. SPEAKES: How do you know? (Laughter.)
  Q: In other words, the White House looks on this as a great joke?
  MR. SPEAKES: No, I don't know anything about it, Lester.
  Q: Does the President, does anyone in the White House know about this epidemic, Larry?
  MR. SPEAKES: I don't think so. I don't think there's been any ...
  Q: Nobody knows?
  MR. SPEAKES: There has been no personal experience here, Lester.
  Q: No, I mean, I thought you were keeping ...
  MR. SPEAKES: I checked thoroughly with Dr. Ruge this morning and he's had no - (laughter) - no patients suffering from AIDS or whatever it is.
  Q: The President doesn't have gay plague, is that what you're saying or what?
  MR. SPEAKES: No, I didn't say that.
  Q: Didn't say that?
  MR. SPEAKES: I thought I heard you on the State Department over there. Why didn't you stay there? (Laughter.)
  Q: Because I love you Larry, that's why (Laughter.)
  MR. SPEAKES: Oh I see. Just don't put it in those terms, Lester. (Laughter.)
  Q: Oh, I retract that.
  MR. SPEAKES: I hope so.
  Q: It's too late.

I don't know which part of this is the worse.
 

Brad DeLong posts an e-mail from a friend who saw Seymour Hersh (note to conservatives here: if you're just going to dismiss what he says because of who he is, save the electrons and stop reading now) speak at Chicago and who reports:

• Seymour Hersh spoke... at the University of Chicago.... I took some scattered notes. The remaks will be disjoined--as will be the notes--but chilling. He asserted several things that he says he didn't have nailed down enough to write, but that he was confident of....
  
  He then turned to the 40th president, referring obliquely to 138 names, then began to list them, saying those with long memories will catch on: they were the Reagan administration figures accused, indicted, or convicted of wrongdoing....
  
  He talked about Carl Levin (though he didn't use his name) telling him about high officials lying to him in closed hearings, and how frustrating it was to be lied to, in classified settings, when the liars know the senators know they are lying. Levin said he'd never seen such brazenness in Washington....
  
  He waits after the My Lai story broke mid November 1969, one week, two weeks--then, by Thanksgiving 1969, other correspondents finally write about the atrocities THEY had seen in Vietnam: an outpouring that made him feel strange that it took little old him, the police reporter who had flunked out of law school, 11 years after winning his B.A. in English, to unleash this outpouring of truth....
  
  From My Lai, the transition to the current scandals was seemless. He connected the dots, and spoke of the CIA secret prisons we haven't heard about yet: "We're basically in the disappearing business." He made the first of several criticisms of our humble profession: "there's no learning curve in America. There's no learning curve in the press corps."...
  
  Unsurprisingly, he flagged the extraordinary importance of the WSJ memo revealing the government's plans to torture, including its assertion that it's not against the law if the president approves it, and mocked the New York Times headline "9 Militias Are Said to Approve a Deal to Disband," suggesting in its stead, "Bush Administration Offers Hoax in Hopes of Convincing U.S. There's Some Peace." His assessment of the postwar settlement: "It's going to come down to who has the biggest militia will win."...
  
  Then a story from one of his intelligence sources, whom Hersh says didn't find it an unflattering story: some time in 1986 or 1987, Reagan was given a long chart presentation of what actually happened with Iran/Contra and began sleeping five minutes in to it, then snoring on Nancy's shoulder. After twenty minutes it was over, the helicopter was fired up for the Friday trip to Camp David, Nancy aroused him, he awoke with a start, glanced at the charts, and asked, "What's that." Sy said something like "That's MY Ronald Reagan."...
  
  "NATO's falling apart in Afghanistan now."
  
  And this was one of the most stunning parts. He had just returned from Europe, and he said high officials, even foreign ministers, who used to only talk to him off the record or give him backchannel messages, were speaking on the record that the next time the U.S. comes to them with intelligence, they'll simply have no reason to believe it.... He lamented of his journalistic colleagues, "I don't know whey they don't just tell it like it is."...
  
  He said the people most horrified by the way the war was planned were the military commanders responsible for protecting their troops.... He talked about the horror of the 1000 civilian deaths in Fallujah (but was careful to note the Marines were doing their job, placing the blame with their superiors)....
  
  He talked about how hard it is to get the truth out in Republican Washington: "If you agree with the neocons you're a genius. If you disagree you're a traitor." Bush, he said, was closing ranks, purging anyone who wasn't 100% with him. Said Tenet has a child in bad health, has heart problems, and seemed to find him generally a decent guy under unimaginable pressure, and that people told him that Tenet feared a heart attack if he had to take one more grilling from Cheney. "When these guys memoirs come out, it will shock all of us."...
  
  He said that after he broke Abu Ghraib people are coming out of the woodwork to tell him this stuff. He said he had seen all the Abu Ghraib pictures. He said, "You haven't begun to see evil..." then trailed off. He said, "horrible things done to children of women prisoners, as the cameras run."
  
  He looked frightened.