Discuss
 

Not working for the Israeli military, I don't have a "plan." Nor do I think that this is solely an Israeli concern. Do you?

Discuss
 

Genocide by white people is better?

Discuss
 

Why did you take Gattigap's post as sarcastic? How does Israel "destroy" Hezbollah without, at minimum, doing what he said?

Well you asked for a discussion
 

I don't think anyone could disagree with that


It is true that dismantling the settlements does not accomplish anything positive for Israel. However, it might accomplish something positive for the settlers. Settlements in Palestinian majority areas are about the dumbest idea of all time. If you are going to make the West Bank part of Israel expel all the Palestinians and make it Israeli. But to put a bunch of Jewish settlements in the midst of a bunch of Palestinians has got to be one of the dumbest ideas of all time. It is a half ass measured that exposes a lot of Israelis to danger and accomplishes nothing (except angering the Palestinians even more).



True


Probably true


I would phrase it that goodwill gestures do nothing because the ultimate goal of all these people is the destruction of Israel.


True. See above


Terror would exist without the settlements. Whether they are there or not, there will still be terrorism. All the settlements do is expose a lot of Israelis to danger and they accomplish nothing.

The terrorism will exist as long as Israel exists. The occupation doesn't really affect it either way.


I agree


True


True. That is because in many ways Israel is acting like an apartheid regime. As long as Palestinians from Israel proper are not allowed to return to their homeland, and any Jew in the world can immigrate to Israel, Israel is implementing apartheid like policy (and definitely a racist policy). However, such racist and apartheid like policies are necessary if Israel is going to continue to exist.


This seems like B.S. but I don't know enough to comment


This makes sense.


If they are like our left - probably


True


These people do not think that Israel has a right to exist.


True

True


Not true - this doesn't make any sense. I don't think people will hate Jews any more because Israel is pursuing the peace process. I do think the creation of Israel has created a great deal more anti-Semitism than existed before.


True

Usually true

True

True

True

True - but why would you expect any "Israeli" Arabs to support the existence of Israel?

If Israel is like America, this is true.

True.

I don't think most of the Western Media focuses on Israel that much.

True

They expect America to do the same

True

If that were true then I am an Anti-Semite, and I don't think I am (because I believe there is a difference between Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism). Support of (or a lack of support of) Israel is a very different issue from anti-Semitism. Sometimes they are related but often they are not. I would say that Zionism has caused a great deal of anti-Semitism throughout the world.

Maybe

B.S. They are a people. They lived in that area for Generations. They are as attached to that land as the Normans are to Normandy. Just because the Normans are also French does not mean they also don't have a right to Normandy or can be moved to another part of France.

B.S. The Golan Heights were part of Syria and Israel took the Heights away.

I don't know if this is true. I can't stand Noam Chomsky and many of his opinions but I have no idea if he is anti-Semitic.

I really doubt this. I would say that they have one of the toughest jobs on earth.

Just like the American left, so probably true.


This is ridiculous. Does anyone disagree that this is ridiculous.

Way overstated. I agree that it is sometimes necessary to kill civilians when terrorists are hiding among them, but the statement above is way to sweeping to be accurate.

True

I don't even know what this means. I think it was wrong for Stalin to expel the Sudeten Germans from the Sudetenland after WWII. However, the Sudeten Germans were part of a country that had committed unspeakable crimes, so some could make the argument that they had it coming. I don't think there is anyway to argue that the Palestinians deserved to lose their land.

True

Probably true. But in this case there are probably no military solutions

The use of the term "fair" here is ridiculous. What has happened to the Palestinians is unfair no matter how you slice it. There can be no "fair" solution to this problem.

True - they all want to destroy Israel.

True

True

True. However, I would put it like, you are never going to get people to accept (or believe or agree that it was justified) the loss of their homeland through trade concession etc.

The only thing that will stop terrorism is time (and that may not work either). Killing Terrorists is not going to stop terrorists because there will always be someone to take the dead terrorists place. You simply need to accept that terrorism will continue and be prepared for it.

Well you asked for a discussion
 

I was all set to mock you for attempting to take that load of crap on point by point, but, by pure accident, happened to read this last part, which ruined all my fun.

Discuss
 

It will totally screw up the balance of the board if you go from being one of the most liberal members to its most conservative. Take back what you said.

Well you asked for a discussion
 

It was very considerate of him to put it at the end instead of in the middle of that post, which is a part of the internet I will never read.

Discuss
 

I thought everyone would be excited by the fact that Wonk finally dropped the mask of compassion to reveal the slavering fascist that you just know all of us elitist, condescending, uber-PC liberals have lurking inside. Way to go, Wonk.

Well you asked for a discussion
 

You should read the rest of it. Everyone will disagree (probably violently) with at least one of my opinions. Should be fun.

Discuss
 

Not solely, no. I do think that Hezbollah in particular is special to Israel, though. They're camped out across the border, have dug more warrens than a pack of rabbits, and like tossing missles into Northern Israel.

That's unacceptable, of course, and Israel needs to do something, and I don't pretend to know what the optimal solution is. I do see, though, that the slogging is much tougher than Israel anticipated, and I suspect that another long term war and occuption, while maybe necessary here, is not at all what Israel had in mind.

Similar deal with Iraq. Declaring that organizations must be "destroyed" led us to the shit that we're in now in Iraq, and it leads us to the rationale where we have to invade and indefinitely occupy every potential terrorist threat on the planet.

Discuss
 

I just finished "Fever Pitch" by Nick Hornby. Less loaned me his copy. Did you read it? Did you like it?

Discuss
 

What organization were we trying to destroy in Iraq?


Hezbollah as a military entity must be destroyed. Should Israel do this through a house-to-house war? No. The cost would be too high. And I don't think destroying Hezbollah as a military entity means killing every last soldier or blowing up every last tunnel (not that I wouldn't applaud that occurrence.)

But I do not see this as solely an Israeli problem or obligation. Security council resolution and all that.

Hamas is a terror organization. Hezbollah is an army. There is a very important difference.

Discuss
 

It's very good. I read it when I knew almost nothing about the game and it was still a great story. Don't be put off by the stupid hollywood movie they tried to make out of it (the Red Sox for fuck's sake). I highly recommend it.

ETA: duh. You read it already.

Discuss
 

The Terrorist Menace. Duh.

Here, you and I agree. But I think that Hezbollah appears to be very well entrenched, willing to fight hard, drawing sympathy from the Arab governments that initially condemned their actions, and uninterested in diplomatic solutions where they lay down their arms like Sinn Fein. I'm not seeing that kind of intermediate solution at the moment.

Nor do I.

Discuss
 

Not genocide. Restoring order. Just like what Israel is doing in Lebanon, but on a global scale. The idea is to stop the terror and the genocide. Then spend the time and the resources to build infrastructure, institutions, establish markets.

If we're really going to stop the genocide and the terrorism, then we have to be prepared to go all the way. Applying band-aids to those wounds we find it politically expedient to treat is like trying to stop the heroin trade one street dealer at a time.

Discuss
 

I'm sorry, you believe Northern Ireland achieved an "imediate solution?"

Discuss
 

No, which is why I said they achieved an "intermediate" solution.

You know, somewhere in between nuking Belfast, and surrendering the entire island.

Discuss
 

Whenever I get down on myself for not being able to read, or spell, you almost immediately make me feel better. I know it's not really appropriate for a Friday, but thanks.

Discuss
 

I'm actually being the ultimate liberal. We need a government so big it runs the whole world, because the people everywhere are too venial and stupid and bloodthirsty to run themselves.

Discuss
 

You know my ancestors, the Italians, had their home in Ireland and the UK, before you lot took it. You fuckers are living on my birth right, and mucking it all up growing potatos instead of spaghetti plants or grape vines.

Discuss
 

Show me where it says that in the Bible. Otherwise, we have nothing to talk about.

Discuss
 

Maybe you'd have been able to hold on to it if you hadn't been so busy killing Christ.

Discuss
 

I s'pose my view of imperialism is more negative than yours. I see it tending more towards genocide than order.

A very orderly genocide, but still.

Discuss
 

I have never heard of the movie. Who was in it?

Discuss
 

You do realize that there was 25 year period where you could have said the things about the modern IRA?

Discuss
 

Are you for real? Go to google and type "fever pitch." Seriously.

There was a UK version as well, which was miles better but still crap compared to the book.

Discuss
 

Yeah. So?

Discuss
 

I think you'd get dirty pictures if you do that. try imdb.

Discuss
 

But what kind of songs does Hezbollah have? The IRA always had some very good songs.

Discuss
 

the "passed out drunk half the time" thing also provided safe time so the housewives could get their shopping done safely.

Discuss
 

OH MY GOD: The Jimmy Fallon - Drew Barrymore movie about basefall!!!!. I had forgotten the name - obviously I never saw it but remember the ads for it. But it was an autobiography. How do you take an autobiography written by a crazed English soccer fan and turn it into a fictional account of a guy who is into a baseball team in the states?

In any event I don't see how the humor could be translated into a movie unless the movie was narrated. Its the guys observations that made it funny.

Have you read "How to Be Good". That was the first book (and only other book) I have read by Horby, but it was really good. Really funny.

Discuss
 

I didn't read that one, but "High Fidelity" was good, as was the movie, which I did see (and if you haven't you should) and "About A Boy" was also good.

Discuss
 

In what sense did we "destroy" the Nazis?

In the military sense, we can destroy them. But Hezbollah will still exist. And I think you and I are using the word "legitimacy" in different ways, too. This conversation may be more about the ambiguity of language than about substantive differences in what Hezbollah deserves.

Discuss
 

2.

Discuss
 

You think Great Britain should have stayed out of WWI and let Germany win?

Discuss
 

How about that -- me too.

Discuss
 

Then explain how you reconcile that with an Israeli invasion of Lebanon in order to root out Hezbollah.

Discuss
 

Nope. I was thinking more of his books Collossus and Empire. Like I said, I don't agree with everything he writes.

What's more, while I may believe that it would take an Imperial America to solve some of the world's more intractable problems, it doesn't necessarily mean I advocate actually doing it. It presents all manner of moral, political, financial, and logistical nightmares. On the other hand, I also don't believe that we are ever going to get out of Iraq with a measure of long-term success, nor is Israel ever going to see true long-term peace, without it.

Quite the paradox, no?

Discuss
 

You think Israel is trying to do to the Lebanese what, say, we did to the Apache?

Discuss
 

Smallpox? Blankets of mass destruction?