Jesus.
 

Special forces don't mess around when they see what they think is the enemy.

Jesus.
 

even Ty's blog doesn't claim that as a fact. but. okay, he was murdered because (even though no one had heard of him before he died) once he came back he was going to have a press conference and denounce the Iraq war.

Do you guys not see how you degrade the memory of the man?

Jesus.
 

That evidence suggest that either our special forces guys are really, really good, or really, really bad at what they do. I'm not sure which gives me more comfort.

Jesus.
 

It's an AP story quoting Army documents.

Huh? Neither the blog Ty linked nor the AP story says these things, far as I can tell. You been trolling on Kos again?

Jesus.
 

I tend to agree with you that the murder angle seems unlikely, but "no one had heard of him before he died"? It was national news when he enlisted.

Jesus.
 

no. it's blog, linked to another blog, that quotes an article. an the article says that "it appears" the bullets were fired close based upon how close they were. it also explains an investigation happened.

but if you goal is objectivity, why not link to the article in the first place?


huh? the blog Ty cites is Kos/DU. go back and read it.

Jesus.
 

No, Alberto, it's not.

Jesus.
 

Nor did I. The question mark indicated that I was raising the possibility. If he was murdered, which I tend to doubt, we'll probably never know.

Jesus.
 

Because I trust you and others on this board to make sense of sources which quote and link to other sources.

Jesus.
 

yeah, but like, how is your post different than say a Penske-style "clinton killed 26 people" post?

Jesus.
 

that's weird. whenever I find a story on lgf, I always link the story to cut away from the commentary. maybe that's why I'm generally seen as pretty credible here?

Jesus.
 

I don't have his Photoshop skills.

"When you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche.

Bush Lied!
 

My take-away from the conversation here is that Hank doesn't want to talk about it. I assume Spanky has sent him the talking points from Rove.

Now the question is, do they not want to talk about because the Tilman case is all about Bush administration members lying right and left, and the "Bush lies" theme hits home, or is it because something bad happened over there, where an enemy attack caused grown men to cower in fear but left no visible sign, no spent shells, no dings in the equipment, no indication that any attack had occurred other than three holes in the head of one person that turned out to have been put there by U.S. ranger fire?

Bush Lied!
 

It's not clear to me that there's much of a political angle to the Tillman thing. To my mind, it's more about the mililtary's propensity for PR, and preference for myth-making over giving civilians good information.

Bush Lied!
 

But is there an angle to Hank's posts? They look suspect to me. More of the same.

Jesus.
 

"A man looks in the abyss, there is nothing staring back at him. At that moment he discovers his character. That keeps the man out of the abyss."

-- Lou Mannheim, Wall Street

You know, you're semi good-looking.
 

"I've been to the edge. And there I stood and looked down. You know, I lost a lot of friends there, baby. I got no time to mess around."

-- David Lee Roth, Ain't Talkin' Bout Love

Bush Lied!
 

you're right. To be fair to Ty, he is not the most Penske-like of you guys. thanks for bringing me back to earth G.

You know, you're semi good-looking.
 

Come go, I will fall prostrate at his feete,
And neuer rise vntill my teares and prayers
Haue won his grace to come in person hither,
And take perforce my husband from the Abbesse

--Wm. Sh.

You know, you're semi good-looking.
 

Off my corner, ho.

Jesus.
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ensign Monk: Bud, give me a reading from your liquid oxygen gauge.
Virgil: [typing] 5 minuts worth
Lindsey Brigman: [shocked] What?
Alan "Hippy" Carnes: It took him *thirty* minutes just to get down there!
Lindsey Brigman: Bud! Do you hear me? You drop your weights and start back now, Bud. The gauge could be wrong. Do you hear me? Just drop your weights and start back now. The gauge could be wrong! The gauge could be wrong, you drop your weights and start back now!
Virgil: [typing] Going to stay awhile
Lindsey Brigman: No, you won't stay there, do you hear me, you drop your weights! You can breathe *shallow*, do you hear me? Bud, please listen to me, *please*, goddammit, you dragged me back from the bottomless pit, you can't leave me here *alone* now, please...
[sobs]
Lindsey Brigman: Oh God, Virgil, please... please...
Virgil: [typing] Don't cry baby. Knew this was one way ticket, but you know I had to come. Love you wife.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Virgil: [over the phone] Brigman here. Yeah, Kirkhill, what's going on? Yeah, I'm calm. I'm a calm person. Is there some reason I shouldn't be calm?
[long pause, then... ]
Virgil: [furious] WHAT?

- The Abyss (1989)

Jesus.
 

People really hated Bidwell for taking them to Phoenix.

Jesus.
 

None of us know for sure, but --

(A) They were Rangers, not SF, and they are really good at shooting at things

(B) The public story said Tillman and an Afghani ally were up top on one side of a ravine taking fire from Rangers in vehicles below, and that -- after setting off colored smoke and other identifying signals to no avail -- he raised up from behind cover shouting "this is Pat F-ing Tillman."

That story is consistent with his being shot in the forehead, and three quick rounds closely grouped are well within the capability of a Ranger who fired before identifying his target. [That was a big issue the shooters were reprimanded for in the initial report.]

(C) That distance is an estimate -- and must be a bit imprecise -- but isn't really out of line with the official story as I understand it.

(D) Hank was referring to two comments made on the blog -- but he is nuts to say that no one had heard of Tillman before he died.

S_A_M

efs

Bush Lied!
 

Ding, ding, ding! They did also kill one or two of the Afghani soldiers attached to the unit.

Having never been in a combat situation myself, I won't criticize their reactions except to say that its widely acknowledged as not a fine day for the Regiment.

S_A_M

Jesus.
 

Does that sentiment extend to his mother?

• Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

Jesus.
 

FWIW, the AP article indicates otherwise:

• "The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.
  
  The doctors _ whose names were blacked out _ said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

All very odd and sad.

Bush Lied!
 

No doubt that was just part of the cover up. Have they been autopsied? How far apart were the bullet wounds?

Jesus.
 

Sorry, as far as Tillman goes, I can't stop thinking caveat emptor. He could have made an impact a thousand different ways. I don't want to speak ill of him, but there's something undeniably queer about someone doing what he did. And I don't mean that in the cynical sense. His history inidicates that of a guy who walked to a very strange and contrarian drummer. Nothing wrong with that. But sometimes that shit'll cost you.

Here it did. He's gone, and it was a waste.

I've no doubt he annoyed many people. Doesn't sound like one to be reasoned with.

Jesus.
 

Not exactly.

• The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.
  
  It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.
  
  But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.
  
  The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

Jesus.
 

if there were no other bullets, just 3 clean to tillman's head, what was O'Neal scared of? honestly, you guys can't think past your bush hate at all.

Jesus.
 

I'm not sure. Let's have some hearings and find out.

Jesus.
 

I don't see Tillman's death as having much of anything to do with Bush -- the "Bush hate" myopia here is all yours.

Bush Lied!
 

Why would a general cover up fragging? Don't they usually fear they're next?

Or can I not handle the truth?

Jesus.
 

Why not just an independent investigation outside the glare of the C-SPAN cameras?

Bush Lied!
 

After what they did to Meg Ryan, they're capable of anything.

Jesus.
 

What I said is true.

What you are saying is that these documents say that the official story is wrong.

Did O'Neal confess to the killing? Or was it his pal who heard the insult over the hail of gunfire, realized it was Tillman, and decided to finish that damn Tillman off once and for all?

To address many points at once--

Seems unlikely to me it was intentional. I guess it Could have been -- but a frenzied fuck-up seems more likely. It is hard to belive that an entire platoon would be complicit in the murder of one of their own, and concoct and stick to a basically consistent story, which is what the conspiracy theory would require.

If it were a murder, of a famous soldier, a General might conceivably want to cover it up for PR reasons, etc.

OTOH the fact that Army lawyers were pleased that they forestalled a criminal inquiry pending the Army's investigation is hardly conspiracy fodder.

S_A_M

Jesus.
 

Or perhaps the fodder that TNR has been peddling under its "Shock Troops" articles, as imagined by a snivelly private married to a current TNR staffer.

Plame, anyone?

Jesus.
 

Indeed. The way the right-wing blogosphere is sliming this guy -- who is in Iraq serving his country, unlike most of them -- is entirely reminiscent of what they did to Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame.

Jesus.
 

Nah. Though an ass, at least Wilson actually existed.

Remember, this kid is fictitious! Just a figment of the imagination of the TNR, which was all part of Franklin Foer's secret plan to move the pro-war TNR to the left. Not by stopping its publication of pro-war pieces, but instead by publishing articles about troops killing dogs in order to make the US look bad.

Or something like that.

Jesus.
 

I make these posts solely to see whether you or I are the bigger joke.

Your response proves that you are, yet again, my superior.

Salut!