Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Of course, I didn't say anything was "the same" as anything else. You said the attacks were "mainly" on Jews, and I pointed out that there have been many attacks on people other than Jews. Why do you have such a hard time with that?

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

We keep having fires at mosques.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Anti-Muslim reactions are vile. But it must be noted that if that sort of thing should become a significant trend, Jews will be some of the strongest defenders of Muslims’ right to exist unmolested and in peace. Jews walk the walk.

If one doubts the Jewish commitment to freedom, recall that Ira Glasser, head of the ACLU at the time, defended the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Repugnant.

However, I have no problem with anyone doing whatever he or she likes to Hamas apologists. And there are lots of Hamas apologists out there.

The pro-Palestinians will argue that the Israeli attack kills the innocent. That’s a fair argument. The Hamas apologists will argue the extreme violence was necessitated because the Gazans had no other way to fight back. The former should be engaged. The latter should be ignored, and if they should refuse to be ignored, have their teeth scattered about the pavement on which they stand.

If you apologize for Hamas, I have a right to escalate. You’re a degenerate fool. And you should suffer physical damage.

ETA: But if I should force one of those lovely little college student justice warriors to choke on that flag because he’s blocked my ingress to a public building, that’s on me. I should be prosecuted. I’ll be in violation of a principle - free speech - observed by Israel and the US, which renders us, and all other Enlightenment-informed cultures, superior to the rest of the world.

I’ll happily pay the fine, take the misdemeanor.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

You may want to look around a little in recent press reports before making too strong statements about free speech in Israel.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Umm, it is a trend. Yes, folks like the people at Jewish Voice for Peace and Jewish Currents have come out very strongly against it; ADL and AIPAC, not so much. Once upon a time ADL certainly would have and AIPAC might have, but today, no, that's not their schtick.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

There seem to be a lot of Palestinian nationalists who are being treated as Hamas apologists. One might think you'd sympathize with their efforts to stake out an increasingly irrelevant centrism.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

I do, and I don't think theirs is an irrelevant position. Desiring a free state for Palestinians is a valid position. Those people are not at all Hamas apologists, and should not be treated as such.

There is one noxious position that seems to characterize all Hamas apologists:

"The people had no other way to fight for themselves and get attention except for doing something drastic, as they did."

That position has no validity given what Hamas did. First, it conflates Palestinians and Hamas. Two different things. Palestinians do not want war. Many of them near the border worked in Israel. If anything, they want to be free of Hamas' subjugation, and to live in Israel, or a free state like Israel. Second, it is a frivolous attempt at expansion of the almost always frivolous argument that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Third, it plainly states that murder of innocents is an acceptable political act.

If one argues that Hamas was somehow pushed to do what it did here, that person is knowingly ignoring objective reality and completely avoiding the real and obvious reasons we all know Hamas did what it did. I do not understand why anyone would seek to so obscure issues except out of bias, ignorance, or ill intent.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Speaking of obscuring, trying to explain why Hamas did what it did is not apology.

It's a little odd that we are still stuck here on the semantics of how to condemn Hamas, when Israel is killing thousands of people in Gaza and Israeli settlers are acting against Palestinians in the West Bank.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

I'm happy to condemn Hamas all day long, but, we also need to recognize that Israelis are killing civilians at a rate that exceeds the worst of Assad, and that what has been going on in the West Bank for the last couple of decades is indefensible.

And if you're wondering how to create more terrorists, what Israel is doing right now is a master class. It's a truly vicious cycle.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

All in the name of "destroying Hamas," as though such a thing is possible via violence.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Matt Yglesias is right about the way people react to anti-Semitism.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

I think you mean Maya Bodnick is right about this. With which I concur.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Waiting for Sebby to get upset about this sort of cancel culture.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Took a minute.

And Mel Gibson is still making movies.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Really just in his youth, in his later years more of a Phalangist.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Yeah, I don't go to them anymore. I'm not sure why anyone does.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

What? Not sure what you mean.

I mean Hollywood should have fired Sarandon a long time ago.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Huh? Don’t go to his movies?

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

I’ve actually been arguing for two weeks with a buddy who thinks this stuff is fine. I see a split among supporters of Israel here. Half think this stuff is acceptable, great even (caveat emptor). Half think this is de facto squelching freedom of speech, and if we embrace this, we shit on the most cherished rights of free expression which liberal democracies, like Israel, seek to uphold.

I’m with the latter. In fact, I go one step further. I think the cancellation of Tlaib’s college campus speech, and the efforts of those outside her district to donate money to a challenger to knock her out of office are problematic.

Tlaib, and the rest of the Squad, are idiots. But nothing - nothing even conceptually - is gained by shutting them up. One has a right to be an idiot. And if one’s constituents want idiots to speak for them (See also, Gaetz, MTG, Boebert) they have that right.

And we should keep these idiots in the public sphere. Because they remind us all that this country is filled with idiots, and what idiots think (say, biological men should be allowed to swim against women, the election was stolen, etc.) does not disappear because the voices of idiots are silenced.

Cancellation of anyone for his or her decision to support either side here offends every principle on which this country is based. If you think it’s okay, you violate the axiom that sunlight is the best disinfectant, and that weakens a pillar of liberal democracies, like Israel and the U.S.

I’ll laugh at Tlaib, who is a goddamned fool, all day. But I’m an enemy of anyone who seeks to shut her up.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Except that his assessment fails to prove that Musk was retweeting GRT. Saying that Jews supported open immigration isn’t saying they unwittingly support GRT.

That’s an example of a tactic that the right and left (and I’m surprised Yglesias would do it) frequently use to create strawman. You take the statement made, then affix it to the most extreme position nearest it. Example: If a person says he’s pro-Palestinian but fails to articulate the breadth of his position, you make him pro-Hamas, and if you’re really ambitious, you make him pro-Jihadist. Voila! You’ve made an anodyne statement into something atrocious and bigoted. Or, if the statement is potentially impolitic, like Musk’s, you’ve dialed it up from controversial to repugnant!

Musk’s position in that retweet is at best opaque. He’s also an insomniac whacko who frequently tweets incoherently. But hey… why view it in that light, or the less controversial light we ought, when instead we can ascribe the most extreme meaning to it.

Because it’s all about the gotcha. About signaling that someone is not virtuous. Scoring points using words out of context, or in a made up context.

This is why no one reads or trusts most media these days. And again, I’m surprised Yglesias did this. But then, journalism today is all about the clicks, and the man needs to dance for his dollars.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Benedict was a member of Nazi youth in his childhood, before and during WWII.

His fascist leanings continued throughout his life, though more in the mold of the Francoists, for whom fascism and Roman Catholicism served the same ends.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

A schoolmate of my son, a Palestinian, and two of his friends, also Palestinian, were shot yesterday in Brattleboro Vermont, on the edge of the UVM campus.

I think it's obvious that calling everyone you disagree with an antisemite, a Hamas supporter, etc. enables this kind of terrorism. Regardless of whether we learn the shooting was done by a MAGA terrorist who hates everyone or by a Zionist terrorist whose hatred is focused on Palestinians and their supporters, the cancel culture encourages this. And Palestinians aren't safe at schools and elsewhere because of it.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Wasn’t Hitler youth membership mandatory “before and during WWII?”

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Yes, and he claims to have been unenthusiastic and anti-Nazi, but there is controversy over that and there are competing stories.

Frankly, what he did at 14 in Germany (we've all seen JoJo Rabbit) is a lot less relevant than what he did in later life. It's his pre-papal writings, when he was a theologian and then when he headed the inquisition that tend to be on the frightening side. He was one of our scarier Popes.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Today really really sucked.

First I had to figure out how to tell my son, after he woke up, that someone from his school had been shot. And the boy slept until noon so my wife and I kind of obsessed over it. Then I learned one of my partner's spouses died, someone who has been fighting the same cancer as me. Then I learned my foster sister's brother had died and she was pretty bummed. He had been very troubled his whole life, and was in a supervised living setting, but he got covid and went very very quickly. The way he landed in supervised living was kind of comic - he had gotten really drunk and went to an apartment he used to live in and tried to break in, thinking it was still his. But he was an ex-con and the system didn't want him out in the world any more, and I think it left him pretty depressed.

Sorry to vent. It's just been one of those days.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Life during Covid for me is whack a mole- up and down. Sorry your today was so fucked, hope tomorrow or someday soon is up. Or I guess whack a mole analogy, hope tomorrow is down? anyway better.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Tomorrow will be better.

Part of today was that all three of these things came out of the blue. I really thought my partner's spouse was going to make it. I hadn't heard about my foster sister's brother in years. And who would have anticipated that shooting?

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

The Church's "look the other way" and sometimes, "let's see if we can share in the spoils" behaviors during the Holocaust haven't been given the Scorcese level Hollywood treatment they deserve.

A flick on par with the excellent Conspiracy, detailing the Wannsee Conference, recreating known meetings the of Church hierarchy regarding the Holocaust is overdue.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

The incoherence of the aggressive actors here is more depressing then the polarization. Sadly, everything is now polarized, so I expect that. Our media, our social media, feed us the world in binaries.

And while I'm of no religion, I must admit - the absence of religion is felt. That sounds odd, of course, given the current mess in the Middle East accrues significantly, historically, from religion. And it seems fairly certain the greatest bigotries we'll see here will be from the most religious (most notably, aggressive Christians, is my guess). Nevertheless, the fervency, the extremism, and the vehemence of responses to the Israeli/Palestinian situation, indicate a desire among many to belong to something. To be part of "a side." And this is proven by the ignorance and incurious nature of the loudest involved in the war of words and actions over here.

The strongest voices, as always, refuse to or cannot chew gum and walk at once. Israel is at fault for numerous things. Hamas is at fault for numerous things. We can differ in assessing degree and which is most at fault in this moment. The issue is incredibly complex. But the crowds don't want to hear that.

I'd wager almost none of the people holding flags and chanting "River to the Sea" have a clue about the subject. The people tearing down stickers showing hostages have no clue. The people asserting it's totally and exclusively Anti-Semitism and that there is no difference between critiquing Israel and attacking Jews generally have no clue.

The list of nuanced conversations necessary, or that at least can and should be had - even for one like me, who strongly supports Israel and thinks Hamas owns the current mess nearly 100% - is endless.

And yet... Flags in the streets. All or nothing positions. Maybe it's just our genetics, one more proof the Yeats' axiom, "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." But maybe not. Maybe everything from our domestic politics to the environment to our sexuality to our economy to race to "equality" has become black and white battlegrounds for the simple reason that people are pack animals, and they need to cleave to something bigger than themselves. And nuance won't do. It doesn't provide the certainty of blind faith, of that primordial dopamine rush one acquires from "believing" regardless of facts.

I see a tremendous amount of free floating religious idiocy in the world, applied to almost every subject. And it makes me a bit wistful for the older, simpler varieties. At least they tended to stay in their lanes.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

I think you are missing the context. It took me two seconds to find this:

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Actually, I don't think this is true at all, I think a lot of them are very well studied.

Look, I majored in Middle Eastern History, and I had no choice but to learn about this stuff, and I fell in at the time with a lot of people who became Middle East specialists of one sort or another, whether professors or government officials or NGO administrators, etc. and who keep me abreast of some of this. So I have a pretty good idea of the history, and when I talked to my kids, who have not attended any of the protests but who talk to a lot of people who have, they have not infrequently given me detail I hadn't heard before. There are smart kids in the world, much as us geezers may want to think our age gives us benefits in knowledge and wisdom.

The best history for non-expert readers I've seen on "Between the River and the Sea" is here: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-th...er-to-the-sea/ (note it is a generally pro-Palestinian publication, but most of the pro-Israeli ones are pretty rank hasbara).

In particular, I think the younger generation has come to understand how much hasbara is just pure disinformation, thanks to the fact that so much hasbara just uses the same techniques used by internet trolls and organizations like Cambridge Analytics that they have become so familiar with. They see though it. And right now many of them understand that the argument over "form the river to the sea" is not about the slogan but instead about the old trick of avoiding a reasoned debate with your opponents by seeking to discredit them instead.

When I was young, some of this was done through the refusal to suggest a "palestine" exists or that "palestinians" are a recognizable group that should have rights as such - and the suggestion that using the word "palestinian" was antisemitic as a result. This old trope is coming back in Israel. This is part of why Israel arrests people for simply displaying a Palestinian flag.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Israel currently controls Palestine, from the river to the sea. Everyone understands that one can advocate for the continued existence of the Israel state and control over that land, from the river to the sea, without also advocating for genocide. It's so obvious that it doesn't need to be pointed out.

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By the way, below are some selections from Likud's original platform, you'll see it uses the phrase, but in the sense of excluding Palestinians from any role in governing in the area, including through a Palestinian state. It may be they worry about Palestinians using the phrase the way they do.

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.
...

Settlement
Settlement. both urban and rural. in all parts of the Land of Israel is the focal point of the Zionist effort to redeem the country, to maintain vital security areas and serves as a reservoir of strength and inspiration for the renewal of the pioneering spirit. The Likud government will call on the younger generation in Israel and the dispersions to settle and help every group and individual in the task of inhabiting and cultivating the wasteland, while taking care not to dispossess anyone.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Original as in what year?

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

1977.

But it's consistent with policy of the Likud to this day. Netanyahu has used parts of the phrase relatively recently (along with his maps that show Israel covering the full West Bank and Gaza).

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

Seems like all of the angsting over a "cease-fire" is coming from concern that Israel is using excessive force in going after Hamas -- which almost everyone thinks is legitimate -- in a way that is causing unnecessary death and suffering of non-Hamas Palestinians. The problem is that a "cease-fire" sounds like a clear and concrete thing, but no one knows how to draw a line regarding excessive force, no one knows how to tell what the Israelis are actually doing, and (almost) no one trusts the Israelis to get the balance right.

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I was going to write a long response but then deleted it. There is no point. And I do like you and Ty, and I won’t convince you how wrong you are, and even if I did it wouldn’t matter off this page.

Re: Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!
 

I'd go a touch farther.

It's not just excessive force in going after Hamas, I think Israel is (a) demonstrating war aims that have nothing to do with going after Hamas and (b) carrying out operations that are counterproductive in going after Hamas. There are statements from the Chairman of the US Joint Chief of Staff pretty much agreeing with (b), and there are also reports that Biden has signaled to Netanyahu that he is concerned about (a).