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I agree. There is no doubt at all that if they have to work to pay for the kids themselves, they are more careful about getting pregnant.

Things would really improve if men were thrown in jail more often for failing to pay child support.

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Oh. My. God. All corruption comes from the heart of the Democratic party, but that ain't Boston. Dat's da fadda uv da curran mare.

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I would say you are too slow to follow the conversation, but I'm going to settle, instead, on too emotional.

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Al Capone was the mayor of Boston?

It may have been quoted by any number of mayors, but the saying originated on the South Side of Chicago. Back in the USA. Back in the Bad Old Days.

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Um, fact check please.

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Yeah, that'll go over better. :rolleyes:

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That can't be right. If I'm a U.S. citizen resident in Italy, I pay Italian taxes on my income, but why would I pay U.S. taxes as well?

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If you are a US citizen living in Canada, you pay both sets of taxes (Canada taxes based on residency, not citizenship) and the US-Canada tax treaty makes sure that you are not double-taxed - i.e. exempts one set of taxes so in effect, you only pay Cdn tax. I imagine Italy and the US have a similar treaty in place.

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Um, no. It was James Michael Curley, Mayor of Boston, who said it first. I know that Chicagoans like to take credit for creating political corruption, so think of it as convergent evolution.

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Interesting. It would seem to me that the U.S. government exercises jurisdiction beyond its own borders in a whole host of ways that strike me as overreaching. I don't see how it should be able to tax income earned in another country, but I'm no tax lawyer.

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I believe that the similar dynamic occurs amongst states, relevant in our circumstance for GPs that are Ps within a multistate firm. You've gotta pay state tax for not only the state in which you live, but also the other states in which the firm is situtated.

Many states, I think, have tax treaties that allow credits of one set of paid taxes against those owed in the other jurisdiction.

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Dude, I just said what you just said. Its associated entirely with Da first Mare Daley. Put the quote into google (in quotes) with Chicago and get more than 2000 hits. Put it in the same way, except with Boston, and there are a bit more than 700. Anyway, I just said what you just said. That ain't factual enough for you or do you just not speak Chicagoanese?

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But there the firm is, in some sense, a resident of both states. If you spend six months of the year in California, and then move to Nevada, California can't tax the income you earn in Nevada. Only Nevada gets to do that.

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It's different among the states - less in the way of treaties and more in the way of constitutional questions. There's a general policy in the tax code of providing credits for foreign taxes paid on foreign income, but we often disagree with other countries as to what constitutes "our" income and "their" income, and treaties try to solve that.

But it's the same with many laws - as US citizens we are bound to act in accordance with our countries' laws, whereever we go. If only the US government were required to provide due process whereever it went...

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Everyone thinks Chicago's nickname as "The Windy City" is meteorogical, not political, but they're all wrong.

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Uh, "Vote Often and Early for Curley!"Edited to add: STP, Not Bob. Anyhoo, read "The Rascal King" by Jack Beatty to learn all about the guy.

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The "intuitive is crap" part is dismissable, but do please explain how the rape exception would work.

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If you live in Italy, earn money in Italy, and give up your US citizenship, you (probably) won't have to pay US taxes.

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Hey, it wasn't me who placed the 2000+ votes for Chicago to beat your 700 votes for Boston. Take it up with Google!

eta... check out "Boss" by Mike Royko to learn more about our guy. Maybe the two knew each other.

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Why should your citizenship have anything to do with it?

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Why shouldn't it? If you don't want to pay taxes to the US, you don't get to be a citizen of the US.

Are you a closet federalist libertarian small-gov't freak? Wow. I think I have to go lie down.

ETA, there are tax treaties with the vast majority of countries in which US people might work, so people don't end up double-taxed very often. I believe that for most Western European countries, a US citizen who worked overseas for a non-US employer wouldn't end up paying US taxes at all b/c European rates are higher. Or, they end up paying the same (higher) amount as they would have in the European country, but part goes to the US. I'm not really a tax person.

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Because that's the basis for taxation. Many (I think most) countries tax based on residency. The US taxes based on citizenship and (for people like me) residency.

eta - I'm not sure if your question was philosophical or asking for the legal basis. I went with the latter. Not sure what the answer is from a philosophical pov.

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The government taxes income from non-citizens in the country. I have no problem with that. I just see the justification for the taxation as relating to economic activity within the sovereign's jurisdiction, not a claim on the sovereign's part to reach into the wallet of its citizens wherever they may travel in the world. If I'm a U.S. citizen living in Milan and working in a factory there, I don't understand why the U.S. government should have a claim to take part of my wages. Italy, yes -- the U.S., no.

eta: I'm not hung up on the prospect of double taxation -- I just don't get the justification for the exercise of U.S. jurisdiction. What power should the government have to claim a share of economic activity in another country, simply because one of the participants is a U.S. citizen? I have the same problem with the idea that the U.S. government can send you to prison for deciding to smoke a Cuban cigar when you're in Brazil. Borders mean something, don't they?

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Most countries are now moving toward a worldwide system with a credit. There are a few holdouts - I think France is one and Canada may be another, but most of them are offshore tax shelter jurisdictions.

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By rape exeption I mean that even if abortion is made illegal it would not be absolute. It would be permitted for rape, incest, and other similar horrific events.

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People who live in countries where the taxation is based on residency are still taxed on their worldwide income. For example, if I live in Canada for 200 days out of the year, and yet I travel the rest of the time to third world countries as a sweatshop supervisor and make a bundle (and that's where all my money comes from even while I'm living in Canada), the Canadian gov't takes a chunk of that. Taxation based on worldwide income is the norm (I think). The US just claims a basis for taxation even if the citizen does not pass the residency test.

Anyhoo, this discussion is fascinating, but I'm going home.

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I get perverse joy in watching Ty argue against taxes

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I think of the rape exception as one that is based on both the mother and the child's interest. In regard to the mother, it would be far more of a distressing fate to have to carry the child of your rapist than it would to have to carry the child of someone with whom you had sex voluntarily. I think everyone would agree on that one.

In regard to the child, it is a very traumatic thing for a child to learn that he was conceived because his father raped his mother. I have a friend who was adopted and decided to find out who her biological parents were after her adoptive parents died. She found out she was concieved by a rape and she has been in psychological counseling and on anti-depressants ever since. It profoundly negatively affected her and she wishes now that she had remained ignorant of who her biological parents were.

If we are weighing the rights of an unborn life against the mother's right to control her own body, the psychological damage done to both the mother and child make the rape exception far more morally defensible than abortion after voluntary sexual activity that leads to a pregnancy.

As for implementing it, this could be implemented very easily. You would go before a judge and give sworn testimony that would remain sealed. If there was no reason to doubt your testimony, the judge would have no reason not to allow it. It would be an ex parte proceeding and reviewable de novo before an appellate court.

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It shocks me that you referred to me as the dumbass in this sub-part of the discussion. I mean, DUH.

The question I asked, which you said was overemotional or whatever, was how is the rape exception administered? How do you know whether someone's pregnancy is the result of rape? Same thing for incest.

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I'm not sure they do.

Should a US citizen be permitted to commit treason freely abroad? Smuggle drugs, as long as they stay outside the territorial limits?

Should US citizens have been permitted to trade with Germany during WWII, as long as they did it off shore?

I don't know of a constitutional provision that limits the ability of the government to act to its territory, and think when we are beyond our territory it is a question of whether international law restricts the ability of the government to act. I don't think it does unless the US agrees to a restriction (e.g., by signing a treaty).

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Citizenship means something too. If you are working in an Italian-owned factory in Milan, why not just give up your US citizenship?

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Like when Accenture decided it was Bermudan instead of American?

Always a good time.

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No, for the same reason I don't think slaveowners were truly evil people. That's what their society saw as the norm, at that time. That changed.

I do think they were wrong. And, as our society grows more and more into a life-embracing thing (an evolution that is still ongoing after thousands of years), I think at some point that most people are going to see abortion as wrong.

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I like Not Me's proposal above for rape. Reporting a rape to the police also should be per se proof. Incest could have the additional feature of a DNA test.

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(emphasis added)

That is ludicrous. My mom had the experience of being denied medical care (pre-Roe) when she was going through a spontaneous abortion (this is the medical term for miscarriage) because the doctor thought she was faking bleeding (using animal blood, or something) to get an abortion. She had to wait until the bleeding got much worse to get him to decide she really was in need of help. So here we had a woman with blood all over her underwear who was denied assistance with her miscarriage, and you think that it will be easy to administer a law that says you can get an abortion if you were raped?

ETA two things. (1) your "was" in the bolded part above should be "were." (2) My parents wanted the kid. It was a boy. They were very, very upset by it. Since all of this predated me, I'm glad that the medical inattention didn't result in my mom becoming infertile. Well, usually glad.

ETA again to say that the thing about my mom may be outable -- but I guess so be it. And, I would have liked to have had an older brother.

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Perhaps then, it is all the voter fraud that explains the success of the Red Sox, White Sox and Cubs.

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You think that immoral evil women who are willing to murder their own children would balk at a false report to the police?

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He he he.

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for having commented on this, I'll have to go back several pages to catch back up. normally i'd hestitate to do that. But here, i must. What the heck are you saying? this may be the worst parallel ever drawn on the board. i'm not if it is, but i think so.