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Tyrone Slothrop 08-29-2007 04:37 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I don't get why pleading guilty to a misdemeanor is resulting in the Senate Republicans calling for an ethics inquiry into the allegedy horny allegedly homosexual senator from Idaho.

Is it because it's a crime of moral turpitude, or whatever?
Two possibilities:

Did he fail to comply with a Senate ethics rule requiring him to report the conviction?

He's said that he lied under oath, in essence, in pleading guilty.

Both of these seem like pretexts, though.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 08-29-2007 04:54 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I don't get why pleading guilty to a misdemeanor is resulting in the Senate Republicans calling for an ethics inquiry into the allegedy horny allegedly homosexual senator from Idaho.

Is it because it's a crime of moral turpitude, or whatever?
Romney turned on the guy faster than you can say "Hester Pryne".

I must say, Craig made himself into a bit of a joke, but I've got more respect for Hank's misguided defense of the guy at all cost than for the Republican leadership's stone-casting contest.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 08-29-2007 05:16 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Two possibilities:

Did he fail to comply with a Senate ethics rule requiring him to report the conviction?

He's said that he lied under oath, in essence, in pleading guilty.

Both of these seem like pretexts, though.
What else can they do besides call for an inquiry? Calling for an inquiry is the action that expresses the sentiment "we think you're a bad person and shouldn't be one of us", which in itself seems not to be sufficient for voters.

ltl/fb 08-29-2007 05:32 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
What else can they do besides call for an inquiry? Calling for an inquiry is the action that expresses the sentiment "we think you're a bad person and shouldn't be one of us", which in itself seems not to be sufficient for voters.
It just seems like there is not much about which to inquire, other than details about his personal life. Which I guess at least makes them consistent.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 08-29-2007 05:37 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
It just seems like there is not much about which to inquire, other than details about his personal life. Which I guess at least makes them consistent.
To be sure. The guilty plea means the facts are presumed established.

It really seems that the proper inquiry is whether he remains fit to serve in the senate. That determination is up to the senate and/or voters.

SlaveNoMore 08-29-2007 06:14 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

ltl/fb
I don't get why pleading guilty to a misdemeanor is resulting in the Senate Republicans calling for an ethics inquiry into the allegedy horny allegedly homosexual senator from Idaho.

Is it because it's a crime of moral turpitude, or whatever?
Good point.

Were he Democrat, Reid, et. al. would probably honor him with a standing ovation and a rose garden ceremony.

ltl/fb 08-29-2007 06:18 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good point.

Were he Democrat, Reid, et. al. would probably honor him with a standing ovation and a rose garden ceremony.
Just shut the motherfucking hell up and stop being such a jerk.

Hank Chinaski 08-29-2007 06:19 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good point.

Were he Democrat, Reid, et. al. would probably honor him with a standing ovation and a rose garden ceremony.
I know you or I would get yelled at if we made the "jacking off to Boy's Life" reference the Dems did here.

ltl/fb 08-29-2007 06:19 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I know you or I would get yelled at if we made the "jacking off to Boy's Life" reference the Dems did here.
You too.

SlaveNoMore 08-29-2007 06:24 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

ltl/fb
Just shut the motherfucking hell up and stop being such a jerk.
Mom?

Hank Chinaski 08-29-2007 06:30 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Mom?
do I have to put up with that sort of abuse? really?

Spanky 08-29-2007 11:01 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good point.

Were he Democrat, Reid, et. al. would probably honor him with a standing ovation and a rose garden ceremony.
Is there no violent crime in this jurisdiction? We are in a war on terror with fanatics threatening to kills millions of Americans and our internal security forces our hanging out in bathrooms? American soldiers are risking their lives to make us safer, and these so called peace officers being funded by our tax dollars are making us safer by playing footsy in a bathroom stall.

My father attended Stanford Law School in the 1950s. The cops raided the bathrooms at the Palo Alto train station where I guess the homosexuals were hooking up. Some of these guys rounded up were in his law school class and he never saw or heard from them again. I remember when he told me that story when I was in school; I was thinking I am so glad that I live in a much more "enlightened" time. Boy was I a naive kid.

At the same time this idiot's hypocrisy makes me sick. To condemn others for (and to profit from) actions one does on their own in secret is just beyond pathetic. It shows a complete vacuum of character and integrity. If this guy got run over by a truck, it wouldn't bother me for a second.

This whole episode is just sickening from about thirty different levels.

sebastian_dangerfield 08-29-2007 11:21 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I know you or I would get yelled at if we made the "jacking off to Boy's Life" reference the Dems did here.
I made that reference and I am not a Dem.

sebastian_dangerfield 08-29-2007 11:25 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good point.

Were he Democrat, Reid, et. al. would probably honor him with a standing ovation and a rose garden ceremony.
Were he a Democrat there would be no issue, since he would not have taken a strident stance against gay marriage to pander to a base. It would be an embarrassment, but not much else.*

Unless he were some freak like Edwards who wants to sweep the thin Archie Bunker sector of the Democratic Party (union sorts with "traditional values," the old "Catholic Democrats," etc...).

*You probably won't do well if you run through the barn door I appear to open there. Arguing the Dems are a morally bankrupt party who'd see nothing wrong with Craig's behavior isn't a strong position right now.

Hank Chinaski 08-29-2007 11:34 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I made that reference and I am not a Dem.
if you're not with the President 100% you are a dem.

sebastian_dangerfield 08-29-2007 11:36 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Is there no violent crime in this jurisdiction? We are in a war on terror with fanatics threatening to kills millions of Americans and our internal security forces our hanging out in bathrooms? American soldiers are risking their lives to make us safer, and these so called peace officers being funded by our tax dollars are making us safer by playing footsy in a bathroom stall.

My father attended Stanford Law School in the 1950s. The cops raided the bathrooms at the Palo Alto train station where I guess the homosexuals were hooking up. Some of these guys rounded up were in his law school class and he never saw or heard from them again. I remember when he told me that story when I was in school; I was thinking I am so glad that I live in a much more "enlightened" time. Boy was I a naive kid.

At the same time this idiot's hypocrisy makes me sick. To condemn others for (and to profit from) actions one does on their own in secret is just beyond pathetic. It shows a complete vacuum of character and integrity. If this guy got run over by a truck, it wouldn't bother me for a second.

This whole episode is just sickening from about thirty different levels.
Pathetic is pitiable and Mr. Craig is not pitiable. Mr. Craig voted to impeach Bill Clinton.

His statement "I am not gay" at his news conference today will haunt him, and soon. Rumor is, four men are about to come forward and say otherwise.

sebastian_dangerfield 08-29-2007 11:38 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
if you're not with the President 100% you are a dem.
So we don't have enough Republicans to have a flag football league? Shit.

ltl/fb 08-30-2007 12:43 AM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Pathetic is pitiable and Mr. Craig is not pitiable. Mr. Craig voted to impeach Bill Clinton.

His statement "I am not gay" at his news conference today will haunt him, and soon. Rumor is, four men are about to come forward and say otherwise.
It is splitting hairs, no? He didn't come out and say he's never done sexual things with other men.

sebastian_dangerfield 08-30-2007 01:19 AM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
It is splitting hairs, no? He didn't come out and say he's never done sexual things with other men.
Nor did he deny being bisexual.

Fugee 08-30-2007 01:32 AM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
if you're not with the President 100% you are a dem.
You're not serious?

If you're either for or against any politician 100%, you're a lemming.

Atticus Grinch 08-30-2007 01:55 AM

Not news: Tucker Carlson grabbed a man's weener when in high school.
News: Because he wanted to hold onto the guy until the cops arrived.

Tyrone Slothrop 08-30-2007 09:24 AM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
He didn't come out and say he's never done sexual things with other men.
Apparently he did open his press conference on Tuesday by saying, without apparent irony, "I want to thank you all for coming out today."

Hank Chinaski 08-30-2007 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Not news: Tucker Carlson grabbed a man's weener when in high school.
News: Because he wanted to hold onto the guy until the cops arrived.
  • CARLSON: I went back with someone I knew and grabbed the guy by the -- you know, and grabbed him, and -- and --

    ABRAMS: And did what?

    CARLSON: Hit him against the stall with his head, actually!

the hitting thing could be read two ways

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 08-30-2007 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski


the hitting thing could be read two ways
as justified assault or unjustified assault?

Hank Chinaski 08-30-2007 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
as justified assault or unjustified assault?
which head. either way it was unjustified assult. I suppose under those facts it's like the free hit the defensive linemen get when the offense jumps offsides.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 08-30-2007 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
which head. either way it was unjustified assult. I suppose under those facts it's like the free hit the defensive linemen get when the offense jumps offsides.
Anyway, my guess is Tucker's problem is he keeps showing up at the public bathroom in his bowtie and preppie clothes. That's more blatant than a wide stance.

Tyrone Slothrop 08-30-2007 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Anyway, my guess is Tucker's problem is he keeps showing up at the public bathroom in his bowtie and preppie clothes. That's more blatant than a wide stance.
My guess is that if someone ever hit on Tucker in a bathroom, he awkwardly declined, and then wished later he'd dealt with the situation in a better way, leading him now to share a little fiction about returning and hitting the guy. 'Cause his story just doesn't sound right at all.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 08-30-2007 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
My guess is that if someone ever hit on Tucker in a bathroom, he awkwardly declined, and then wished later he'd dealt with the situation in a better way, leading him now to share a little fiction about returning and hitting the guy. 'Cause his story just doesn't sound right at all.
Agree. His story sounds a bit like Costanza coming up with the witty comeback a few hours later, except then pretending he had it while there.

(I'm surprised a gay rights group hasn't come after him already for basically assaulting someone--it's not like he grew up in Wyoming)

If a guy whipped it out on me, there's no way I'd grab ahold.

Gattigap 08-30-2007 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
My guess is that if someone ever hit on Tucker in a bathroom, he awkwardly declined, and then wished later he'd dealt with the situation in a better way, leading him now to share a little fiction about returning and hitting the guy. 'Cause his story just doesn't sound right at all.
True. Still, I think the Scarborough bit about Carlson loving his wife, and FTR Scarborough not being gay, either, compensates nicely for any factual flaws contained within the overall narrative.

Tyrone Slothrop 08-30-2007 12:56 PM

The continuing health-care crisis.
 
Let's not adopt the Chinese system:
  • In the absence of government funding, hospitals . . . have been turned into pharmacies on steroids, with more than half their recurrent funding from the sale of drugs. Much of the rest comes through diagnostic tests, which explains why some Chinese hospitals have better equipment than in the west.

    The system has in-built incentives for everyone to sell as many drugs as possible, including doctors, whose salaries are tied to prescription targets. As a result, rich China gets good hospitals, while poor China is lucky to get a clinic. It would be easy to blame the hospitals for shaking down their patients at the front door, but they have to grab money where they can. . . .

    The most common prescription is for antibiotics, with devastating effect. The health ministry announced the results of a survey this week showing about 70 per cent of child pneumonia patients were resistant to drugs used to treat the disease, because of overuse of antibiotics. In three children's hospitals in Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou, the country's wealthiest cities, the figure climbed to 90 per cent.

    . . . A Chinese journalist visited 10 hospitals this year and, pretending to be a patient, provided tea in the place of a requested urine sample. Six of the hospitals said they had discovered "blood cells" in the "urine" and immediately prescribed drugs.

FT

taxwonk 08-30-2007 01:47 PM

Ethics
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
It is splitting hairs, no? He didn't come out and say he's never done sexual things with other men.
I agree. If I were about to get tossed out of the Senate for looking to smoke some cock, I'd be fucking depressed, not gay.

Secret_Agent_Man 08-30-2007 02:48 PM

The Emporer is Jerking Off to Boy's Life
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
he was a man ruined for nothing. he was a dedicated senator who was forced to resign since his diary indicated he convinced an aide to fuck him. at long last do you have so little empathy that you can call him a gnat?
You are somewhat late in realizing that SD is not all broken out with empathy.

S_A_M

Spanky 08-30-2007 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

If a guy whipped it out on me, there's no way I'd grab ahold.
No straight man would ever do that. But a bow tie wearing, self loathing preppie with homosexual tendencies would.

Diane_Keaton 08-30-2007 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
If a guy whipped it out on me, there's no way I'd grab ahold.
I would grab it and smoke it, even.

EXCEPT NEVER IN A GUY'S BATHROOM. For the life of me, I can't figure out how anyone could fool around in the men's room. Buzz. Kill. I've had to use unisex bathrooms with urinals in them a handful (eh) of times, and Good God that shit smells like the homeless. Ain't no urinal cake gonna make it better either.

Atticus Grinch 08-30-2007 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
No straight man would ever do that.
I'm not a big movie trivia guy, but I'm pretty sure it's a move that's been used by putatively straight action stars. I think Arnold did it in something. Total Recall?

Hank Chinaski 08-30-2007 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
I'm not a big movie trivia guy, but I'm pretty sure it's a move that's been used by putatively straight action stars. I think Arnold did it in something. Total Recall?
you know, I gave you one of the better set-up posts ever yesterday, and you didn't even respond. search pizza and porno and you'll focus right in.

Spanky 08-30-2007 08:29 PM

What September Won't Settle

By George Will

Come September, America might slip closer toward a Weimar moment. It would be milder than the original but significantly disagreeable.


After the First World War, politics in Germany's new Weimar Republic were poisoned by the belief that the army had been poised for victory in 1918 and that one more surge could have turned the tide. Many Germans bitterly concluded that the political class, having lost its nerve and will to win, capitulated. The fact that fanciful analysis fed this rancor did not diminish its power.


The Weimar Republic was fragile; America's domestic tranquility is not. Still, remember the bitterness stirred by the accusatory question "Who lost China?" and corrosive suspicions that the fruits of victory in Europe had been squandered by Americans of bad character or bad motives at Yalta.


So, consider this: When Gen. David Petraeus delivers his report on the war, his Washington audience will include two militant factions. Perhaps nothing he can responsibly say will sway either, so September will reinforce animosities.


One faction — essentially, congressional Democrats — is heavily invested in the belief, fervently held by the party's base of donors and activists, that prolonging U.S. involvement can have no benefit commensurate with the costs. The war, this faction says, is lost because even its repeatedly and radically revised objective — a stable society under a tolerable regime — is beyond America's military capacity and nation-building competence, and it is politically impossible given the limits of American patience.


Every weekday NewsAndOpinion.com publishes what many in the media and Washington consider "must-reading". HUNDREDS of columnists and cartoonists regularly appear. Sign up for the daily update. It's free. Just click here.

The other faction, equal in anger and certitude, argues, not for the first time (remember the transfer of sovereignty to Iraq, Iraqi voters' purple fingers, the Iraqi constitution, the killing of Saddam Hussein's sons, the capture of Hussein, the killing of Zarqawi, etc.), that the tide has turned. How febrile is this faction? Recently it became euphoric because of a New York Times column by two Brookings Institution scholars, who reported:


"We are finally getting somewhere" ("at least in military terms"), the troops' "morale is high," "civilian fatality rates are down roughly a third since the surge began" and there is "the potential to produce not necessarily 'victory' but a sustainable stability."

But the scholars also said:

"The situation in Iraq remains grave," fatalities "remain very high," "the dependability of Iraqi security forces over the long term remains a major question mark," "the Iraqi National Police . . . remain mostly a disaster," "Iraqi politicians of all stripes continue to dawdle and maneuver for position," it is unclear how much longer we can "wear down our forces in this mission" or how much longer Americans should "keep fighting and dying to build a new Iraq while Iraqi leaders fail to do their part," and "once we begin to downsize, important communities may not feel committed to the status quo, and Iraqi security forces may splinter along ethnic and religious lines."

The rapturous reception of that column by one faction was evidence of the one thing both factions share: a powerful will to believe, or disbelieve, as their serenity requires. Consider the following from the war-is-irretrievable faction:

Rep. James Clyburn of South Carolina, House majority whip, recently said that it would be "a real big problem for us" — Democrats — if Petraeus reports substantial progress. Rep. Nancy Boyda, a Kansas Democrat, recently found reports of progress unendurable. She left a hearing of the Armed Services Committee because retired Gen. Jack Keane was saying things Boyda thinks might "further divide this country," such as that Iraq's "schools are open. The markets are teeming with people." Boyda explained: "There is only so much you can take until we in fact had to leave the room for a while . . . after so much of the frustration of having to listen to what we listened to."

In the other faction, there still are those so impervious to experience that they continue to refer to Syria as "lower-hanging fruit." Such metaphors bewitch minds. Low-hanging fruit is plucked, then eaten. What does one nation do when it plucks another? In Iraq, America is in its fifth year of learning the answer.

Petraeus's metrics of success might ignite more arguments than they settle. In America, police drug sweeps often produce metrics of success but dealers soon relocate their operations. If Iraqi security forces have become substantially more competent, some Americans will say U.S. forces can depart; if those security forces have not yet substantially improved, the same people will say U.S. forces must depart. Furthermore, will the security forces' competence ultimately serve the Iraqi state — or a sect?

Petraeus's report will be received in the context of his minimalist definition of the U.S. mission: "Buying time for Iraqis to reconcile." The reconciling, such as it is, will recommence when Iraq's parliament returns from its month-long vacation, come September.

sebastian_dangerfield 08-30-2007 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Insightful George Will article.
The debate on us leaving Iraq is a sham. We are not, lead by Democrats or Republicans, "leaving" that country en masse or anything even close to it. Whoever is in power will be forced to remain because to leave would only plunge the place into chaos and force our imminent return under worse circumstances.

This entire debate is a political theatre. The Democrats are culpable on this because they are playing it for votes knowing it is a promise they can never keep.

This is not Vietnam. It is in no way analogous.

Bush has broken the vase and we have to pay to for it now. Leaving the store has never and will never be an option, except for the shit-for-brains crowd that believes what it sees on C-Span or hears in stump speechs.

There will be 15,000 dead Americans before Iraq is close to some sort of peaceful stasis, and it will be three states tied together in the thinnest of republican organizations.


Gattigap 08-31-2007 01:24 PM

Don't stand so close to me.
 
Kudos to John Dickerson who, in an article on Romney and his reaction to the Craig story, had the best one-liner:
  • "After hearing about Larry Craig's arrest, Mitt Romney ran from his former Idaho campaign chairman as if he'd been in the next stall."

And a good political anecdote I'd never heard before:
  • Nick Gillespie, the editor of Reason, seized on the Craig affair to make a version of this [libertarian] argument in the Los Angeles Times, where he said that the GOP should get back to its fundamental principles as articulated by Barry Goldwater. Republicans should stop trying to tell people what to do in their bedrooms and bathrooms, either by stinging a Singing Senator or passing an amendment banning gay marriage. This drew criticism from the National Review's John Hood, who argued that Gillespie had misappropriated the memory of Barry Goldwater. "I'm going to go out on a not-very-long limb here and suggest that if Sen. Goldwater was still around," wrote Hood, "he'd be urging Craig to take personal responsibility for the disrepute he has brought upon himself and the Senate."

    We don't have to guess about what Goldwater would do. During the 1964 presidential campaign, he faced almost precisely the same issue. In October, the Goldwater campaign learned that Walter Jenkins, LBJ's closest aide, had been arrested on a "morals charge" in the YMCA bathroom. According to J. William Middendorf's account of that campaign, A Glorious Disaster, Goldwater's aides wanted to use the scandal against Johnson, who was well ahead in the polls. Jenkins was not only a security risk—open to blackmail— but long before he was arrested, there were allegations he'd used his influence with then-Vice President Johnson to get an Air Force general who had been busted on a morals charge reinstated. The Goldwater aides even tried out slogans: "Either way with LBJ." Goldwater insisted that they make no use of it. The story never came up during the campaign.

    This may say more about Goldwater's personal decency than it does about his governing philosophy. Jenkins had served in Goldwater's Air Force Reserve Unit, and as Goldwater later wrote, "It was a sad time for Jenkins' wife and children, and I was not about to add to their private sorrow. Winning isn't everything. Some things, like loyalty to friends or lasting principle, are more important." Mitt, you're no Barry Goldwater.

Gattigap

futbol fan 08-31-2007 01:45 PM

A short history of WWII
 
http://www.imageupload.se/files/0708...WII-Online.gif


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