Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

Our tactics in Iraq caused *more* dead kids than what, Ty? Than sanctions? Are you out of your mind?

I'm Pleased
 

yes. I know it isn't fair, but we are stuck with this Medicare monster at least in my lifetime and we have to figure out a way to pay for it. The only other way will be to increase taxes on those who are working now and paying the medicare tax. Given the fact that there are fewer and fewer workers per medicare recipient as the baby boomers age, there would be devastating effects on the economy to keep upping the medicare tax.

Anyone else have any better ideas for how we are going to be able to pay for the baby boomers medical care?

I'm Pleased
 

You are better informed than I am. I can't stand to educate myself about the subject because it's all so fucked up.

Happy Wednesday!
 

It certainly is a happy Wednesday. With all the momentum Kerry has gained from the debates, W will have to make a spectacular showing tonight in order to prevent his defeat. Not much chance of that happening, though I'm sure he's working really, really hard to prepare.

I'm Pleased
 

True, but you could regulate the insurers more.

I would not be for the government directly providing it. Just look at the VA system if you need more of an explanation for why.

As for indirectly providing it, we do that already through medicare and medicaid. There is just a gap in there for the working poor. I'd be for a tax increase to provide vouchers for the working poor to buy healthinsurance - but only as much as is necessary. And if it includes mandatory purchasing of heatlh care to get these young people who have the money to buy it but choose to spend their money on other things into the system.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

Our tactics have caused more civilian casualties than other tactics -- like those used by the British -- would have. I understand and sympathize with the impetus for force protection, but I don't see how we can defeat the insurgency when (for example) we're dropping bombs on suspected safe houses in Fallujah.

I don't really see much point in arguing about the body count of the sanctions. First, Hussein was doing his best to make it look worse to win international sympathy. Second, every course of action has costs and benefits -- we can't intervene in Darfur right now because our military is tied down in Iraq, right -- and I think we all agree that the ultimate end served by our foreign policy is not humanitarian, not that those goals aren't worthy.

I'll look for your posts about the civilian casualties since the war started.

I'm Pleased
 

Puhleeze, I've never said its not a matter of us each deciding when murder begins. Your crocodile tears for others don't weight my crocodile tears for others. I'm not a woman? You ain't a fetus.

To answer your question though, I personally don't have any problem all the way through morning after pills. But murder is when society says it is, not when a court says its okay for us to say when it is. So I'll take the position where the people in my state do.

Hello

I'm Pleased
 

At the risk of sounding libertarian, market-based solutions usually function better, which is to say, better to structure the market to give better incentives before the fact, rather than relying on government regulation to police compliance ex post.

That's why I said "directly or indirectly." But why make people pay? Let them sign up with basic coverage with whomever, and the government can pay the provider. You'll get better coverage than you would with vouchers, and you can still preserve consumer choice.

Happy Wednesday!
 

This debate is crucial for both of them. It will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Happy Wednesday!
 

Bush did better once he got rid of the earpiece. I predict another draw.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

The narrow topic was the number of child casualties caused by the sanctions versus the number of child casualties caused by our forces in Iraq. It was not the number of child casualties caused by utilizing Tactic A during the Iraq invasion/occupation versus utilizing Tactic B during the Iraq invasion/occupation.

Bush Lied. Now Unicef Lied. And Mass Graves Lied.

You have it backward. The ultimate end would be humanitarian. (At least for starving children that is) even if the impetus for our actions was non-humanitarian.

And I'll look for evidence you knew or cared from such time as the sanctions started, as opposed to when the politics started.

I'm Pleased
 

Which is easier to prosecute? Who's going to get convicted first?

Happy Wednesday!
 

It was an Ipod. He was listening to the Dixie Chicks to get himself stoked.

I'm Pleased
 

Giant step backward? You really are glum about the world, aren't you?

Murder: According to a Justice Department report called Homocide Trends in the US, homicide rates recently declined to levels last seen in the late 1960's. I'm not sure if they included 9/11 in their numbers.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/totals.gif

Abortion: According to the CDC, who has been monitoring legal abortions since 1969, the number of abortions in the US has been declining, and this is not accounting for changes in the population size. In a November 2003, MMWR article interpreting the data from 2000 the CDC reported that "From 1990 through 1997, the number of legal induced abortions gradually declined. In 1998 and 1999, the number of abortions continued to decrease when comparing the same 48 reporting areas. In 2000, even with one additional reporting state, the number of abortions declined slightly."

Incarceration: The rate has increased significantly since 1980, but it appears that it is leveling off.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/incrt.gif

Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics

ETA on the government expenditures: I'm still looking at deficit and surplus numbers, but preliminarily it looks like federal outlays as a percent of GDP have been falling considerably since 1990.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

That may have been your topic, but that's not what I was talking about. The original topic was the success of containment in dealing with the threat posed by Hussein to us (i.e., WMD), not the threat he posed to his own people, but you have dropped that one like a hot rock.

I'm not opposed to acting out of humanitarian concerns, but I think the ultimate end of our foreign policy should be national security. I usually have this discussion with bleeding-heart lefties, so it's something of a shock to hear this sort of earnestness from the right.

Does anyone disagree that Hussein was a bad man? No. The world is full of them. Robert Mugabe, for example, has been starving his own people for years. Unfortunately, there are real limits to our ability to effect social change in other parts of the world. The question is rarely, how bad are things, but, what can we do about them?

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

I'm sort of convinced that the only real limit on our ability is the one imposed by our will, or lack of will.

Well, about 20% of it is your money. But I take your general point.

What was it? Charlie Rose went nuclear?

Happy Wednesday!
 

I don't get this theory. Given that the CIA has been Bush's lapdog already (or Cheney's), couldn't they find a slightly less obvious receiver-pack? Or am I just believing too much of what I see on TV and the movies--I mean, telephones that fit in your pocket don't exist, do they?

Frontline.

Followed by Nightline, which was a one-hour blow-out against drug companies, and the presidents they buy.

Man, I hope they play that Kerry docu five times before the election. As long as there's no shame one way, let's make it even.

I'm Pleased
 

I'd say those tears weigh about the same, so in a wash, you err on the side of leaving the options open - choice.

As to your second paragraph, sounds pretty arbitrary.

And you really don't want to know what society thinks about freedom of choice, because it will upset you. Right now, the polls are dominated by a vehement minority who actually gives a shit because they're fighting an uphill battle. Women will be quiet now while abortion is legal, but if it becomes an issue for the states and is thrown up to votes, you'll see women come out in droves for the pro-choice side. If the pro-lifers get the battle they're looking for, they're going to get killed. They're underestimating a much more sizable, but quiet opponent.

You know... I might be tempted to agree with you. Lets flip Roe and lets have it all be decided by statewaide referendum. But what will the pro-lifers do when they lose? Will they promise not to seek an amendment to the constitution or throw their own reverse version of "Roe" at the Court? I doubt that.

I'm Pleased
 

One would also have to address the fact that, without the collective purchasing power of employers or the state, insurance companies would simply refuse to insure many of the people most in need. For example, I could not purchase private health insurance. I have a heart condition and diabetes. No company would cover me. Without employer-provided health insurance I would be destitute and, ultimately, dead, due to an inability to pay the costs of my health care out of pocket.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

Why aren't we intervening in Darfur and Zimbabwe right now? On some level, it's a question of will. We don't have the troops, but we could add them if we really cared. But what would they do once they were there? Superintend refugee camps? There are a lot of failed states in the world, and it's not like anyone really knows how to fix them.

I'm Pleased
 

This is what I meant by "cream skimming, to the detriment of many of us," but you said it much, much better.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

Actually, if we had the will, there needn't be any refugee camps. Bring the people back home, and then level the other people who are forcing them to be refugees. But we're too afraid of seeming to judge the killers - heck, there's two sides to every genocide, right?

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

The United Imperial States of the World?

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

The Living Residents Of Darfur?

I'm Amazed
 

No one seems to be talking about this great new tax bill that Bush and the GOP have pushed through - why not? I mean, I assume that with the economy struggling the idea of a tax bill is to really jump start things, and that a lot of deep thought about economic policy has gone into this. And, let's face it, Bush had to push this through both the House and the Senate at a time when the R's have the majority, and his ability to set economic policy under such conditions is surpising. Yet, here he has done it, and crafted a bill of which everyone can be proud - What Leadership!

So, Bilmore, Slave, Club, what do you think of this tax bill? Isn't it great! I understand there is something for everyone in it.

I'm Amazed
 

"Everyone" is exactly right, which is why it got bipartisan support, from all the pork-whores on both sides.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

I don't disagree with the notion that it would be good if we did something. I don't even necessarily disagree with your statement that we could do something if we had the will. But where do we draw the line? I think we have to draw it somewhere.

After all, You have genocide of one form or another or massive repression of ethnic or social minorities going on in parts of India, Pakistan, China, Mexico, Sudan, Chad, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Niger, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Indonesia, all of the Middle East, Chechnya, Croatia, Serbia, Tibet, Brazil, Turkey, Cyprus, Korea, and too many other places to list. Surely we can't stop it all.

Where, Bilmore, where?

I'm Amazed
 

Ah, I've been waiting for this lovely little come back all day, after your little episode giving Bush full and undiluted credit for one small provision you approved of this morning.

So in the debate tonight we cannot expect Bush to claim a major bill in a Republican controlled legislature is the product of his Leadership, can we? So what is he doing right now to exercise leadership on the economy? And where does the buck stop on these things?

I'm Amazed
 

Well, I'm just glad that the vital bow and arrow industry and the makers of ceiling fans in China have finally gotten the relief they've needed for so long. I may even change my vote. Is Zippy the Pinhead a native-born American citizen?

I'm Pleased
 

I am so misunderstood (and I swear that you are one person here who I will never, ever intentionally insult, and its not because you are a moderator... more because you are like a hero).

My comparison is with the time before all of the great society programs began. I want to see all of my factors at the 1946 or 1927 levels. Comparing our crime factors to the time of our crack wars just doesn't do it for me. Similarly, comparing our abortion and teenage birth rates to any time after 1973 and the 1960's respectively, just doesn't do it for me. Even a conservative pro-choice estimate of abortions will show (I'm fairly certain I've seen several) that abortions skyrocketed after it was made legal, and teen birth generally skyrocketed after government aid was made an entitlement. I'd go so far as to say that the reasons society shies away from going after dads is because of the no-say-in-abortion decisions thing and (of course) the general availability of government aid. We have 19 year olds living in public housing with 3 kids next door to the public housing apartments where they grew up with 7 more. I don't mean to sound like I'm optimistic that all of this (misallocated incentives) gets fixed. Rather, I think this stuff gets slowly rolled back. And I'm not saying that you have not dealt with sheer human misery in this country, but if you've seen the same things I have, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Hello

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

I mentioned thousands of children dying each month and suggested that I favored the use of force in Iraq to put a stop to the killing fields and the horrific sanctions which were not, in my mind, working based on my definition of “working.” You chose to respond and said “our tactics in Iraq -- aimed at force protection -- have resulted in more "collateral damage." I do not believe civilian war casualties have exceeded the number of dead children I mentioned. So I fail to see your point.

Whatever. Shit or get off the pot, Ty. If our administration had said they were going in based on humanitarian reasons would you support it? Or will you take the weasel-ly approach and whine how the administration DIDN’T use this as the reason for going in and therefore it doesn’t matter. It matters to me. Would you or would you not have supported the war to end human rights abuses and the devastating effects of the sanctions?

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

Start with the Basques. You can't trust those fuckers.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

We can't stop it all, now, en masse, because through our failure of will, we've let it happen over the years everywhere. Had we hit these problems when they started, (a not-too-expensive proposition, actually, given some of the venues), it would have been spread over time.

Had we, years ago, taken a strong stand against bullies killing innocents, I think the threat we would present might have even kept a few of these from happening in the first place.

I can't seem to seperate this from the more basic concept - I see a guy severely beating up a kid across the street, I cross the street and make him stop. (It's a safe model, for the moment, as there is no bully we can't beat, really.) To argue that the kid isn't my responsibility seems craven.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

But they're such good cooks. Can't we just buy them all restaurants in Chicago?

I'm Pleased
 

Uh... DUH!

Perhaps because once it was no longer a crime, there was no penalty associated with admitting to it.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

The problem is that for so many years we subsidized so many of those bullies, and put more than a few of them in place. Or, even more problematic, we turned today's bullies into the savage haters they are today by propping up even worse bullies, on the theory that at least they weren't commies.

We not only let it happen for years, we supplied the bats, guns, and electrodes. To take your basic example. If we spend thirty years helping the guy beat up his kids, how can we come back and pound him now? Or, another variation, what if every Dad on the block is beating up his kid but you. Can you take them all on at once?

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

Can't disagree with any of that. Having said that, though, does that mean we shouldn't improve?