Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

What an excuse to do nothing or to let sanctions go on for so damn long. Because bad stuff is all over the place and Gee it's so hard to draw lines. You modern day liberals are such pussies.

How NICE of you to not disagree with that notion. Pretty sad that you even have to qualify that statement with so many words.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

I was going back to the conversation we were having last week. I am not going to tell you that civilian casualties in Iraq are higher recently than they were before the war. I don't know whether that's true or not. But since you were lamenting civilian casualties as a general matter, I made the related point that our tactics in Iraq are causing more civilian casualties than other tactics would. I take it you don't disagree, but don't want to talk about it either.

No, I don't think I would have. Not because I didn't see a problem, but because it's not clear to me that in the long run we're going to have done much to make things better. In that respect, it's another Somalia. I suspect that -- for various reasons -- it will take a relatively brutal regime to exercise power in Iraq, with all that entails. The alternative is a failed state, with all that entails. Maybe, if things go well, we'll end up with an authoritarian regime that is less repressive than Hussein was. For the same reason, I don't favor invading Zimbabwe -- I don't see good odds of making a bad situation better.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

No -- it suggests that we'll get more done if we use tools other than hammers. E.g., modern-day liberal pussies brought you the Peace Corps. You don't have to invade these countries to find ways to help them.

I'm Pleased
 

And the GOP's justification for not funding birth control for the poor is?

The only way you're going to slow/stop abortion is by making birth control cheaper and easier for everyone who might have trouble affording it. You can forget about stopping abortions among the people with money - that ain't going to happen for reasons I articulated yesterday. So tell your GOP pals... get those pills, condums, patches, etc... flowing.

I'm Pleased
 

Yesterday it was against taxes, today it's for free markets. A good week indeed.

I'm Pleased
 

2. And I'd add sex education.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

But this is murder we're talking about. How can we just rationalize letting it happen?

Like I said... "once you're born, go fuck yourself."

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

I appreciate the "first do no harm" approach, and I also recognize the possibility that the new regime in Iraq may not be immune from human rights abuses. Where we differ is that I believe the scale of inhumanity had reached an intolerable level so that these risks outweighed the benefit of continuing for another 15 years as is.

I'm Pleased
 

I was waiting for that. But it shows why a comparison to 1990 ain't exactly what I'm lookin for sweetie.

Battle of the Bulge
 

This picture is from the second debate. WTF?

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/blo...Bush_Bulge.jpg

Battle of the Bulge
 

Looks like a bullet proof vest to me.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

These are difficult questions. In North Korea, I suspect more people are dying, but a war would be much more costly. OTOH, I suspect the future of a united Korea would be much brighter.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

LOL. Modern day liberals did not bring us the Peace Corps. Read your history.

I'm Pleased
 

Actually, I articulated those reasons yesterday, so there. You were busy telling me that I was saying something else. But see the conversation above for reasons why abortion becomes scarcer in a post-Roe world. I can't guarantee it, but I stronly suspect that abortion was legal somewhere-or-other even before Roe. Which is fine. I just don't want to live there if I don't have to.

Hello

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

I can never keep up with the way that epithet changes.

I'm Pleased
 

Huh? If any comparison you'll get doesn't take into account actual numbers, what good is it?

So, given that abortions will take place no matter whether they're legal or not, you'd rather that there be a substantially increased chance that the woman will die during the procedure.

Compassionate conservatism at work.

I'm Pleased
 

I started the complaint with reference to our modern Great Society and its resultant ills. I pointed to abortion and noted the activist courts and the silver-spoon cheering section. 1973 ring any bells in this context here?

RT came back with charts showing declines in murders (from the peak years during the crack wars) and in teenage birthrates and abortion rates from something-like 1990. I point out that I'm looking to drive rates back to where they were before the G promised to fix everything. You point out how obviously correct my point is, even with a "Duh"! Now you say my comparison doesn't take into account actual numbers. I simply don't agree that no comparison can be made with pre-1973 numbers, although some of the pre-1973 numbers are estimating illegal abortions.

And yes, if people get illegal abortions, I understand they will be taking risks with their lives. If you and Sebby's purported majority care so much, y'all can fly em to California to have the abortions. I think criminals should be shot.

I'm Pleased
 

Let's teach them to masturbate.

Battle of the Bulge
 

He heard taxwonk was going to be in the audience.

I'm Pleased
 

Abortion is illegal in Saudi Arabia.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

If you and bilmore* could please start loudly demanding the tripling of our armed forces (with an even larger increase in troops versed in nation building)** to accomodate all of the necessary activities embodied in your position, I'd appreciate it. Some minimal consistency is required, and given our recent history in enlisting the UN and others who can help throw requisite resources at the problem of rebuilding the can after we've kicked it over, it seems to me like this is place you guys need to start.

Explaining how we'll afford to do this by (I would assume) dramatically increasing spending on soldier pay, etc -- because we know that GWB will never, ever institute a draft --- would be a nice complement to the discussion, too.

Because otherwise I think that this moral indignation of calling everyone else pussies (including, BTW, many of your GOP colleagues who are still somewhat dazed after embracing realpolitik for decades) is a bunch of happy horseshit.

Gattigap

* And anyone else on this board currently embracing the neocon wet dream of Righting Wrongs Everywhere

** Because, let's face it, one thing that our Iraq experience has taught us is that if we stiffarm the UN and try to rebuild the place ourselves, it's probably a good tactical move to plan accordingly, don't you think?

I'm Pleased
 

The "duh" was because the "skyrocketing" was not (at least not entirely -- and I don't believe you can tell to what extent) due to the illegality of outlawing the procedure, but because the reporting was (more) accurate.

This is all so silly. There's just no having a discussion with someone in your 10% -- those who would outlaw abortion in all circumstances. There's 10% on the other side (no limitations whatsoever), with whom it is equally futile to have a discussion (I don't count myself among that 10%, if that matters) and then there's 80% in the middle, who think abortion should be available, but with varying degrees of restriction. I think everyone is clear where the parties stand -- what do you say we end this pointless conversation?

I'm Pleased
 

Hmph. You're just buttering me up after making me do the wrong research project.

Since abortion was illegal in a lot of states, I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were considerably lower. I imagine, also, that medically, abortions are easier to perform now than they were prior to 1973. Advances in modern medicine and all that. I guess we'd have to find a state that had legal abortions prior to 1973 and was tracking numbers. California maybe? Looking at the CDC report that I posted earlier, the big difference is from 1970 (193,491) to 1971 (485,816). From 1972 (586,760) to 1973 (615,831), there wasn't as a dramatic of a change. I wasn't alive then, but I imagine that the abortion debate must have alterted pregnant women to the option. Also, these numbers aren't tracking illegal abortions.

BTW, teen birth rates have steadily been declining since the 1950s. When was government aid made available?

Yes, I agree things are bad out there, and people are miserable. I'm not certain, though, that things are continuing to decline and some of the numbers have suggested a turnaround.

Also, you get a special place in hell for making me go and look at stuff like "Table 1.3—SUMMARY OF RECEIPTS, OUTLAYS, AND SURPLUSES OR DEFICITS(–) IN CURRENT DOLLARS, CONSTANT (FY 2000) DOLLARS, AND AS PERCENTAGES OF GDP: 1940–2009" today. (http://a255.g.akamaitech.net/7/255/2...5/pdf/hist.pdf) Your 1945 number was the wrong one to choose. 41.9 percent, though I guess it was better than the prior two years (43.6 percent). We're at about 20 percent right now, and the data doesn't go further back.

I'm Pleased
 

UGH. "Edit" not "Quote". Sorry.

Battle of the Bulge
 

That's my guess too. I guess he was worried that Kerry would just shoot him.

I'm Pleased
 

So you're proudly a regressive thinker. Wonderful. Call me when you figure out time travel. In the meantime, I'll be with the "moral relativists" in the present tense.

Oh, and if you find your Norman Rockwell utopia, tell all the other angry white guys I said hello. And don't forget to bring lots of pron and lube. there's agoing to be alot of ass fucking in your Mayberry, because there sure as hell aren't going to be any women following you.

What the hell is the "shooting criminals" line about? You think people who have abortions should be shot? You sure you're Catholic and not Wahhabist?

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

Okay.

I DEMAND THAT WE TRIPLE OUR . . . .

(I'd pay for it by banning all local stadium subsidies, mohair setasides, Lawrence Welk Museums, ceiling fan supports, foreign tax setoffs, caterpillar-sex-life studies, grants to public media, arts supports, public transit capital funding, public official junkets studying city water fountains in Beijing, and, of course, deductions for loss of goodwill.)

I'm Pleased
 

In Nigeria they would stone the woman to death for fornication, but only after she gives birth. (saw the link yesterday-its true).

I'm Pleased
 

Maybe Hello can tell us what's wrong with this.

I'm Pleased
 

Oh. oh. oh. I know this one.

It's because the most effective - and not to mention only morally acceptable - form of birth control is free. Abstinance is the answer.

I'm Pleased
 

I'll take it for him: The government pays for the stones.

I'm Pleased
 

Well it worked in the war on drugs.

I'm Pleased
 

Apparently there was "insufficient evidence" to convict the men in question for the same crime. I guess they don't know what a paternity test is in Nigeria. Not sure what the punishment is for the man involved, in any event.

I'm Pleased
 

Nothing, so long as the people of Nigeria have decided to punish fornication in this way?

I'm Pleased
 

In some ways, these people annoy me less. If someone genuinely believes a fetus is a life and ending it is murder, then I think it's understandable they might also believe the life shouldn't be snuffed out due to someone having been raped. It's the ones who attempt to speak from anywhere but the heart and try to spin their beliefs in terms of federalism or other such concepts that it gets really tortured.

I'm Pleased
 

Silly. The GOP has thought of this too. Abstinence (and I'll spell it right this time) is the answer.

I'm Pleased
 

Wrong. Just so long as society within the "state" of Nigeria in which the stoning takes place voted for it. Any federal interference - unless that intereference supported Hello's Mayberry moral sensibilities - is forbidden.

Speaking of Abandoned Children
 

And they are furry.* Yuck.

*based on sample size of one (1) guy in college.

I'm Pleased
 

A quick check shows that abortion was legal in CA for five years before Roe. At the time of Roe, abortion was legal in NY and KS also. I'd suggest the upward trajectory in CA started sometime after it became legal. Thus, 168K in 1970, 400K in 1971 (or something like the numbers you posted). If thats what CA wants, thats what CA gets.

On a slightly different note, the Georgia Right to Life Committee (GRLC.org) or something like that, notes that the Federal government was tracking deaths (of all types) in 1960 and even included numbers for legal and illegal abortion. 24 and 39 respectively, though I'd obviously concede that others may have died who were misreported.

I can't guarantee when gov't aid really swung into high-gear (teen-births), but I know public housing was available en-masse somewhere in that period. It didn't really get crazy until Johnson and Nixon though. At least, that's when people remember Chicago getting seriously crazy.

Hello

PS What is with that 1945 budget outlay? I'm willing to exempt the entire Roosevelt era as a comparitive marker in an effort not to completely misrepresent a fair comparison. But the % of the GDP that was budgeted federally? Holy Jesus is that ever not exactly a good marker for the Great Society.

I'm Pleased
 

WWII