She Got the Memo
 

Wow. That's surprising. I see them all the time -- within my office, in getting discovery, etc. From my experience questioning people about documents they authored, or received, once the memo is initialed by the author/sender, it's a pretty safe bet that it was final and sent. It's unclear to me what else the initials could possibly mean.

She Got the Memo
 

Any number of reasons -- you decide to change instructors, you move and have to come up through the ranks in a different school/style, or you decide to learn a new style or system. For me it was a combination of these factors.

She Got the Memo
 

I think they did the many things discussed in Richard Clarke's book and The Age of Sacred Terror. I recommend both.

If you're not going to read them, you could try the 9/11 Commission's report. Check out page 174 (President Clinton "deeply concerned" about Al Qaeda), page 101 (Clinton makes chemical, biological and nuclear terrorism a priority), page 109 (Clinton establishes the "bin Laden unit"), page 358 (Clinton's management of the last weeks of December 1999), page 487 (Clinton Administration successful in arresting Al Qaeda members), or page 457 (Clarke runs mission where terrorists use a plane for a suicide mission).

Then look at page 202 (Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz argued against retaliation for the bombing of the USS Cole, saying the issue was "stale"), page 208 (Bush neglected to fill the key counterterrorism policy office in the Pentagon after the former official departed January 20), page 201 (Clarke submits memo to Condisaying "we urgently need... a Principals level review on the al Qida network" -- you've seen this memo now), page 201 (no Principals Committee meeting on al Qaeda held until September 4, 2001), page 203 (Principals Committee meetings on Iraq and Sudan held before one on al Qaeda), page 509 (32 Principals Committee meetings held on subjects other than al Qaeda before 9/11), page 200 (Rice downgrades the Counterterrorism Security Group), page 197 (12/00 "Blue Sky" memo on terrorism urges increased support to Northern Alliance and Uzbeks to fight Taliban and al Qaeda), or page 202 (White House postpones aid to Northern Alliance and Uzbeks).



Could they have done more? Both books acknowledge as much.

She Got the Memo
 

Just out of curiousity -- if I were short, what would that prove in your, um, mind?

Or is this just Detroit-style lawyering? "Yes, Your Honor, he has the facts and the law on his side, but I'm taller."

North Korea
 

From the 75 posts you've made today, that line makes the most sense.

She Got the Memo
 

You may be the first Repub to say this. Certainly the first I've seen on this Board, and probably in any context. It would seem obvious -- 3000 people died at the hands of someone who effectively declared war on the US in the 90s, does anyone think that either the guy who was President when the declaration was made or the guy who was elected nearly a year before the attacks "sufficiently address[ed]" the problem? -- yet I don't think any of your cohorts have been willing to suggest that Bush shares the slightest shred of blame.

She Got the Memo
 

It's fucking obvious. There were failures all around.

What do you mean by cohorts? I don't think I'm breaking new ground here, but maybe you just mean on this board.

Ty - when Sidd and I, sworn mortal enemies, agree, it must be true.

She Got the Memo
 

I mean on this board.

She Got the Memo
 

What sort of belts do you wear when you and Sidd rumble? Are there duels? Do you have a second?

She Got the Memo
 

It hasn't happened yet but we're discussing naked oil-wrestling. You want to be my training partner?

[confidential to club]No, I'm not serious, but work with me on this -- and pick your desired "training partner" too.[/confidential to club]

NK Musings
 

Anyone care to guess what NK actually wants? I'm not suggesting NK should get anything, but I'm wondering if there is a motivation here, or is Kim just an utter whack-job.

For awhile NK said it didn't want 6-party talks, but direct talks with the US. One has to wonder -- for what purpose?

If I lived in Seoul, I'd be thinking about relocating now.

She Got the Memo
 

Ah, so you only wear the belt. No other support garmets? I may bounce around a bit.

NK Musings
 

NK wants formal recognition by the US and a formal end to the Korean war (techinically, we are still at war with NK). They're obsessed with regime survival, and they think that formal recognition fromthe US will protect them from anyone else (or the US) fucking with them or acting to destabilize them further. They also think it would end their pariah status, enabling them to get foreign aid and support, which will help entrench the regime.

They don't want 6-party talks, because it gives the US-side additional pressure to apply (e.g.: China, which switched off Korea's gas & electricity supply some months ago to force it back into 6 party talks). If the US brings the locals into the talks, there is much more to bargain against their nukes other than formal recognition & non-aggression pacts (like food, refusing asylum for escapees, fuel, not ordering troups to the border as Russia has done in the last few days, etc.).

Honestly, SK notwithstanding, both Russia and China have a far, far greater interest in disarming NK than we do. If NK goes nuclear, both Japan and Taiwan will be pretty sure to follow suit in short order. SK quite likely, as well. No one wants that, but China and Russia want it a lot less than the US does.

On a related topic, I'm surprised that no one mentioned when it came out a week or two ago that the nuclear material Lybia turned over to the UN has been demonstrated to have been N. Korean.

eta: you know, Sidd, I now have an indelible picture of you in my mind running at Hank to give him a karate chop yelling "Hiiii-yah!" just like Miss Piggy. You look funny in the blonde wig.

She Got the Memo
 

Richard Clarke says in his book that the Administration could have done more, and in retrospect that seems clear. But they were trying, which is more than one can say for Bush's first nine months. They demoted Clarke and didn't listen to him, and nothing happened.

The sloppy "Clinton did it too" defense of Bush is intellectually lazy and bankrupt. Particulary when it comes from those who complained when Clinton launched cruise missiles at AQ in Sudan and Afghanistan that he was just diverting attention from their attacks on him.

Now, you said before that it wouldn't have made a difference. And maybe that's right.

NK Musings
 

If I were Kim, I'd want nuclear weapons to deter someone like Bush from invading my country, forcing me to hide in a hole in a backyard, and then trying me for war crimes.

Eason Jordan, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

She Got the Memo
 

[confidential to sidd]there are no other women on this board and I'm not gay NTTAWWT[confidential to Sidd]

She Got the Memo
 

Note to Ty - there are plenty of other books on the topic from authors that are not disgruntled. I'm not saying Clarke's work doesn't raise legitimate points, but it is not the end all be all.

She Got the Memo
 

Fuck! I've never admitted I'm wrong before- but here you go.

5'2" tops.

5' 4"? what was i thinking?- the guy threatened to have Thurgreed come beat me up when i made fun of him- 5' 2" tops and he's not dealing with it as well as the average 5' 2" guy/

She Got the Memo
 

Have you read any of them? Do they suggest that the Bush was doing all sorts of valuable things that Clarke hasn't told us about before 9/11? Because that would really be news.

What's the point of trashing Clarke if you don't know of anything wrong with his account?

She Got the Memo
 

Huh?

Hank, I understand that you may be unable to stop dreaming about me, but I'd prefer if you'd keep it to yourself. The whole idea gives me the willies.


Detroit-boy thinks I'm short. My world is drawing to an end. Next he'll write me a research memo.

She Got the Memo
 

He switched video games.

She Got the Memo
 

Poll:

Why does Sid constantly downgrade Detroit:

a) we have more black people than SF-

or

b) we have more Arab people than SF-

If someone has an alternative theory based upon Sid not being racist, you really will need to provide some support-

and before he says it's based upon me, let me just make the point that anyone with over 4000 posts is obviously a failure, and not someone upon which to judge a city's worth.

She Got the Memo
 

Clarke's book has been the subject of widespread discussion. From the Party of True Believers, I've only heard the "but he's disgruntled" criticism. I've seen none disputing his factual account of events.

She Got the Memo
 

Here's what I keep getting stuck on: He worked for Clinton too. Now, did he come up with all these dire concerns only after Bush was elected? Or was he equally ineffective in convincing Clinton to do something about al Qaeda? And what of Clinton? Did he have some grand plan that got terminated on Jan. 21, because Bush wasn't on with the plan? And, if so, why? Because Clarke didn't convince anyone of the need to carry forward a sensible anti-terrorism program?

Did the Bush admin. make some errors? In hindsight, yes. But what admin. accomplishes much of anything in the first 9 mos.? They set the groundwork, but actually to acheive something? The only thing Clinton achieved was blowing up his own health care initiative.

So, what does this say about Clarke? That he was sick and tired of not getting listened to, and finally can say "I told you so, I told you so."

She Got the Memo
 

These are good questions, but query whether anyone perceived a need to do something about Al Qaeda before the Kenya and Tanzania embassy bombings, at least on the scale that you suggest. And then came the Cole bombing, shortly before Bush took office. Our understanding of the threat has changed over time.

It's not a bad book. You might like it.

She Got the Memo
 

Clinton sent cruise missiles at Bin Laden in, what, 1998? So, there were at least a couple of years before he was done that he perceived a significant threat worthy of missiles. I just don't buy that on Jan. 25, 2001, al Qaeda suddenly became a more significant concern.

Credit bin Laden with this: he picked a particularly good time to strike-a presidential interregnum. Good thing Kerry wasn't elected, I suppose.

She Got the Memo
 

Ty would say that clinton did lots- but what I asked Friday and you asked yesterday is this- What programs/inititives started by Clinton were stopped by bush- Ty didn't notice the question I guess. One post late last week alleges several amorphous things- but if clinton had something going that was killed by Bush we would have heard of that, right?

She Got the Memo
 

Well, I assume Bush stopped Clinton's program to have the intelligence agencies cooperate and share information effectively.

She Got the Memo
 

When we went through a reorganization two years ago, I wrote quite a few memos that said "you are new to this position and may not have a complete understanding of what I do. These are the most important things that you, my new boss, should know about." A colleague who is leaving for greener pastures later on this month is composing a memo that says "these are the issues that are outstanding, my reccomendations on how to handle them, and don't blame me if they're not adequately addressed." My impression of the Clarke memo is that it's a combo of the two versions.

She Got the Memo
 

What programs/inititives started by Clinton were stopped by Bush?

She Got the Memo
 

If you read the book, you'd be able to quit asking stupid questions.

She Got the Memo
 

Save us the time--summary please?

She Got the Memo
 

She Got the Memo
 

Babe, that's 41 pages long. These are big-picture guys. They don't want the supporting details. Give them some bullet points. Those make it easier to "shoot down" with crap that, if they actually read the background, would clearly not be on point -- but seems to respond to the bullet point.

She Got the Memo
 

I started to read it- did you? I read like half and there was no program that was stopped. We tried to bust people- we got lucky sometimes- Clinton was urged to threaten the Taliban if we were attacked- he choose not to- where is the answer to my question?

I mean, if its a dumb question you should be able to answer it, right?

She Got the Memo
 

Clarke was essentially demoted, and -- as a result -- couldn't get the principals meeting he requested on 1/25 until 9/4.

eta: Not Clarke personally, but his counterterrorism position. The new administration had other priorities, like missile defense.

She Got the Memo
 

I am happily willing to accept that not enough attention was paid under either administration, and do not single out the Bush admin for not being on the ball. So you have no beef with me. I'm just saying, for someone who supposedly is interested in what is absolutely a very, very complex issue, and who is trained to analyze etc., you don't seem very interested in reading the actual official thingy on it.

Mmmmmmmm, chocolate.

She Got the Memo
 

The only reason that we're discussing the Clinton record again is that some people, when confronted (again) with incontrovertible evidence that Bush's then-NSA and now-Sec'y of State made (what appears in retrospect to have been) a very bad decision in January 25 to ignore Richard Clarke and his requests for real attention to Al Qaeda, cannot think of a better response than to attack Clinton. It's not like Clinton was perfect. Clarke discusses this in his book. But Bush was worse, in this regard. The Bush folks had other priorities, and failed to take Al Qaeda seriously enough.

She Got the Memo
 

My big-picture take away from that is--Clinton was doing some stuff. Bush came in, and heard what he was doing, and wanted to make middle east terrorism part of a bigger-picture plan for the area and worked towards that end, but otherwise keep doing the same stuff (as part of a larger program).

Meanwhile al qaeda kept going with the plans it had for the 9-11 stuff, which it started in 1998-99.