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ltl/fb 01-17-2006 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
The problem is that it's not a free market for the rich either. Very few people pay full price for drugs. Generally only medicare recipients (until this year). Most people have insurance coverage to pay for them. If they don't, they can't afford the drugs. The drug companies set really high prices hoping a couple people will pay it, knowing that for the most part they'll discount the price 75-90% for insurance. It's also not free because most of the buyers are price insensitive, for two reasons. First, they're not paying, or they pay a co-pay. Second, if you need drugs, you pay for it. While the second is part of a free market (think gasoline)
Though, many generics are actually surprisingly cheap. Sometimes less than a health plan's copay. There is an issue that doctors sometimes prescribe (or patients ask for) the latest new drug when an older, now available in generic drug may be equally or more effective. Yay advertising!

Also, did you finish this post? It seems like it cuts off in the middle.

SlaveNoMore 01-17-2006 01:10 PM

Peace Process
 
Did anyone else notice how the Hollywood Foreign Press last night awarded best foreign film to the country of "Palestine"

I guess they already have their own country. So fuck 'em.

sebastian_dangerfield 01-17-2006 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
The problem is that it's not a free market for the rich either. Very few people pay full price for drugs. Generally only medicare recipients (until this year). Most people have insurance coverage to pay for them. If they don't, they can't afford the drugs. The drug companies set really high prices hoping a couple people will pay it, knowing that for the most part they'll discount the price 75-90% for insurance. It's also not free because most of the buyers are price insensitive, for two reasons. First, they're not paying, or they pay a co-pay. Second, if you need drugs, you pay for it. While the second is part of a free market (think gasoline)
I don't know why, for purposes of dealing with insurers, docs and drug makers don't just drop their rates to meet the actual price per unit they're getting from the insurers. Seems so much easier than the game they play with insurance companies.

ltl/fb 01-17-2006 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I don't know why, for purposes of dealing with insurers, docs and drug makers don't just drop their rates to meet the actual price per unit they're getting from the insurers. Seems so much easier than the game they play with insurance companies.
There's not just one price for insurers. All over the board. I think you are out of your depth, sweet pea.

Replaced_Texan 01-17-2006 01:39 PM

Peace Process
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Did anyone else notice how the Hollywood Foreign Press last night awarded best foreign film to the country of "Palestine"

I guess they already have their own country. So fuck 'em.
You would have awarded a film made by Palestinians to Israel? Taiwan to China?

sebastian_dangerfield 01-17-2006 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
There's not just one price for insurers. All over the board. I think you are out of your depth, sweet pea.
True. Good point.

Can you answer a question for me? An insurer offers a doc a contract under which the doc agrees to take the insurers' patients in return for that business, and the guarantee of payment from the insurer at the rate set in the contract. The contract says nothing about the insurer being able to change the rate of payment unilaterally.

The contract has a four year duration. Two years later, the insurer lowers the rate of payment. The doc calls and asks why. Insurer says "we have the right to do so." Doc says "uh, uh... no you don't." Insurer says "take it or leave it."

Seems to me the doc has a lawsuit if he wants. Or am I missing some common industry custom here? In my dealings with isurers, I have learned that contracts tend to be narrow when they're enforcing them, and tend to be read rather expansively by insurers when they want to get around their terms.

ETA: BTW, why do insurers say things like "Oh, well, you have an old contract. The new ones don't say that anymore," when you try to enforce someone's rights? I find that baffling. Do some states have law that holds that subsequent contracts for similar benefits can modify the terms of previous contracts with other parties? That can't be the case, but I can't think of any other reason for an insurer to say something like that.

And its happened to me twice.

taxwonk 01-17-2006 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Not that I want to start the argument, but I think to not provide medical care for those who can't afford it is a violation of the UMC.
Relatively speaking, I agree with you.

ltl/fb 01-17-2006 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
True. Good point.

Can you answer a question for me? An insurer offers a doc a contract under which the doc agrees to take the insurers' patients in return for that business, and the guarantee of payment from the insurer at the rate set in the contract. The contract says nothing about the insurer being able to change the rate of payment unilaterally.

The contract has a four year duration. Two years later, the insurer lowers the rate of payment. The doc calls and asks why. Insurer says "we have the right to do so." Doc says "uh, uh... no you don't." Insurer says "take it or leave it."

Seems to me the doc has a lawsuit if he wants. Or am I missing some common industry custom here? In my dealings with isurers, I have learned that contracts tend to be narrow when they're enforcing them, and tend to be read rather expansively by insurers when they want to get around their terms.
Fuck if I know.

ETA if it's really insurance you are talking about (and not just payments -- like, where I work, the company pays all claims, through a third-party administrator, who might also be an insurer (Aetna, BCBS, whatever) -- but it's not an insured arrangement. I think we may have stop-loss insurance for if an individual's claims exceed $X in a year, or over a lifetime, or whatever, but not sure), it's heavily regulated and it may be that if the insurer gets a new contract approved by the state regulators, it overrules the old contract.

Replaced_Texan 01-17-2006 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
True. Good point.

Can you answer a question for me? An insurer offers a doc a contract under which the doc agrees to take the insurers' patients in return for that business, and the guarantee of payment from the insurer at the rate set in the contract. The contract says nothing about the insurer being able to change the rate of payment unilaterally.

The contract has a four year duration. Two years later, the insurer lowers the rate of payment. The doc calls and asks why. Insurer says "we have the right to do so." Doc says "uh, uh... no you don't." Insurer says "take it or leave it."

Seems to me the doc has a lawsuit if he wants. Or am I missing some common industry custom here? In my dealings with isurers, I have learned that contracts tend to be narrow when they're enforcing them, and tend to be read rather expansively by insurers when they want to get around their terms.
Those agreements are usually fairly easy to get out of. Doc says no way, insurance company says fine, terminates the agreement, and moves on to the next doc.

Eventually, all of the local docs get frustrated, form a sub-specialty IPA, the one hold out doc (or the insurance company if none of the docs hold out of the IPA) start going after the IPA for antitrust violations. Usually the docs aren't integrated enough, though sometimes they can work the IPA to their advantage.

sebastian_dangerfield 01-17-2006 01:54 PM

Peace Process
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
You would have awarded a film made by Palestinians to Israel? Taiwan to China?
Is there any larger waste of time than awards for actors? Robert Mitchum said acting was an award in itself, since it paid well and was way easier than actually working. I'm all for recognizing good art, but thosse ceremonies put me to sleep so fast... I keep thinking, "I'd be so much better served masturbating continuously, or trying to work my index finger into my sinus cavity."

Gattigap 01-17-2006 02:13 PM

Peace Process
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Did anyone else notice how the Hollywood Foreign Press last night awarded best foreign film to the country of "Palestine"

I guess they already have their own country. So fuck 'em.
First a Brokeback Mountain review, and now you're watching the Hollywood Foreign Press awards?

WTF's happened to you?

Hank Chinaski 01-17-2006 02:14 PM

Peace Process
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Is there any larger waste of time than awards for actors?
you're not real introspective, are you?

SlaveNoMore 01-17-2006 02:14 PM

Peace Process
 
Quote:

Gattigap
First a Brokeback Mountain review, and now you're watching the Hollywood Foreign Press awards?

WTF's happened to you?
I've gone Cali, baby!!!!

Spanky 01-17-2006 04:42 PM

Peace Process
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Is there any larger waste of time than awards for actors? Robert Mitchum said acting was an award in itself, since it paid well and was way easier than actually working. I'm all for recognizing good art, but thosse ceremonies put me to sleep so fast... I keep thinking, "I'd be so much better served masturbating continuously, or trying to work my index finger into my sinus cavity."
2. I think Woody Allen sumarized it very well in Annie Hall. It was obnoxious enough to have the Golden Globes, the Oscars, the emmys, the MTV awards, people's choice awards, etc. but now they have these completely nauseating salutes. Like the one going to Al Pacino soon. For the love of God, they are entertainers. It's not like they have made the world a better place.....

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 01-17-2006 05:14 PM

Peace Process
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
. For the love of God, they are entertainers. It's not like they have made the world a better place.....
I've they've distracted people from religion, then they have.

Sexual Harassment Panda 01-17-2006 08:41 PM

Peace Process
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
2. I think Woody Allen sumarized it very well in Annie Hall. It was obnoxious enough to have the Golden Globes, the Oscars, the emmys, the MTV awards, people's choice awards, etc. but now they have these completely nauseating salutes. Like the one going to Al Pacino soon.....
HOO-yah! and Say hello to my little friend!!

sebastian_dangerfield 01-18-2006 02:22 PM

Chocolate Town
 
If you haven't done so yet, find and listen to all of Ray Nagin's comments of two days ago. I understand what he was trying to say, but what actually came out of his mouth was what I'd expect to see if the folks who did Best in Show did a movie on politics. His comment about "mixing milk and dark chocolate" and "making a delicious drink" was surreal. I haven't felt that embarrassed for anyone since watching Bush in the 2004 presidential debates.

Gattigap 01-18-2006 02:42 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
If you haven't done so yet, find and listen to all of Ray Nagin's comments of two days ago. I understand what he was trying to say, but what actually came out of his mouth was what I'd expect to see if the folks who did Best in Show did a movie on politics. His comment about "mixing milk and dark chocolate" and "making a delicious drink" was surreal. I haven't felt that embarrassed for anyone since watching Bush in the 2004 presidential debates.
Yeah, it's bad.

In some ways I think Nagin is a Democratic complement to (say) Jeff Sessions.

The distinction between them would be, presumably, that only the things Nagin actually says are borderline retarded.

SlaveNoMore 01-18-2006 02:44 PM

Clinton, not Hillary
 
Quote:

sebastian_dangerfield
If you haven't done so yet, find and listen to all of Ray Nagin's comments of two days ago. I understand what he was trying to say, but what actually came out of his mouth was what I'd expect to see if the folks who did Best in Show did a movie on politics. His comment about "mixing milk and dark chocolate" and "making a delicious drink" was surreal. I haven't felt that embarrassed for anyone since watching Bush in the 2004 presidential debates.
Had he said "Chocolate City" - they could have had this huge cross-promotion with Hersheys and the P-Funk All-Stars.

Shape Shifter 01-18-2006 02:44 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
If you haven't done so yet, find and listen to all of Ray Nagin's comments of two days ago. I understand what he was trying to say, but what actually came out of his mouth was what I'd expect to see if the folks who did Best in Show did a movie on politics. His comment about "mixing milk and dark chocolate" and "making a delicious drink" was surreal. I haven't felt that embarrassed for anyone since watching Bush in the 2004 presidential debates.
Sure, blame it on Clinton.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 01-18-2006 02:47 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I understand what he was trying to say,.
I'm not sure I understand that either. I can understand what he says he was trying to accomplish, but I think favoritism for that objective was dropped a few decades ago.

Nagain is pretty lucky that Michael Brown happened along as even more incompetent in dealing with Katrina. Otherwise, the spotlight would be squarely on him and blanco

Gattigap 01-18-2006 02:53 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I'm not sure I understand that either. I can understand what he says he was trying to accomplish, but I think favoritism for that objective was dropped a few decades ago.
Feh. Arguably, it's not favoritism for blacks, but instead could be a desire to have everybody come back and have essentially the same city that existed before the hurricane. (Sure, given the breathtaking corruption and incompetence of NO pre-hurricane, that desired objective could be a stupid goal on its own, but at least it wouldn't be purely the product of racial preference.)

Quote:

Nagain is pretty lucky that Michael Brown happened along as even more incompetent in dealing with Katrina. Otherwise, the spotlight would be squarely on him and blanco
2.

sebastian_dangerfield 01-18-2006 02:55 PM

Clinton, not Hillary
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Had he said "Chocolate City" - they could have had this huge cross-promotion with Hersheys and the P-Funk All-Stars.
Or Ween. I think Ween does a tune called Chocolate Town.

sebastian_dangerfield 01-18-2006 03:01 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I'm not sure I understand that either. I can understand what he says he was trying to accomplish, but I think favoritism for that objective was dropped a few decades ago.

Nagain is pretty lucky that Michael Brown happened along as even more incompetent in dealing with Katrina. Otherwise, the spotlight would be squarely on him and blanco
He was bitching about plans bandied about to scrap the poorer areas of town and only rebuild the more affluent sections. He had a good point. It was a lay-up issue. He dunked in the wrong team's basket.

I've heard from some people who followed the Brownie story that Brownie wasn't so much incompetnet as uncaring and dismissive of the whole thing. Allegedly, he just didn't give a fuck, figured 'let em eat cake' and never figured it would bite him so badly. After he was bitten, his defense was to act like a buffoon. Probably cynical rumor-mongering, but you never know... I mean, I've played dumb an awful lot when caught doing bad shit or just fucking off a task that bored me. Better to be seen as lacking ability than being a dick who doesn't care in certain circumstances (which is just about every day I collect a check from anyone other than myself).

Hank Chinaski 01-18-2006 03:03 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Better to be seen as lacking ability than being a dick who doesn't care in certain circumstances (which is just about every day I collect a check from anyone other than myself).
I was fixing to refer you a big juicy lawsuit in Philly until i read this.

sebastian_dangerfield 01-18-2006 03:05 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Yeah, it's bad.

In some ways I think Nagin is a Democratic complement to (say) Jeff Sessions.

The distinction between them would be, presumably, that only the things Nagin actually says are borderline retarded.
Well, of all the Katrina stooges, Blanco still takes the cake. She came off like some frazzled imbecile housefrau.

sebastian_dangerfield 01-18-2006 03:06 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I was fixing to refer you a big juicy lawsuit in Philly until i read this.
I'd get a chunk of that, which means I'd move it ahead of everything else. You'd get Grade A service.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 01-18-2006 03:06 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
He was bitching about plans bandied about to scrap the poorer areas of town and only rebuild the more affluent sections. He had a good point. It was a lay-up issue. He dunked in the wrong team's basket.
weren't those his plans? The 4 mos. or we raze plans?

Quote:

I've heard from some people who followed the Brownie story that Brownie wasn't so much incompetnet as uncaring and dismissive of the whole thing. Allegedly, he just didn't give a fuck, figured 'let em eat cake' and never figured it would bite him so badly.
Hmmm. Haven't gotten that vibe so much as the sense he was happy in a caretaker job at FEMA as a political thank you. He didn't come in with a desire to remake it or advance the ball, and didn't feel any need to do so. Then, just as he was getting ready to turn it over to the next guy, Katrina hits and he's fucked. He had hoped to slip out of town, and now he's confronted with a situation well beyond his capabilities, so he looks like a total buffoon.

Hank Chinaski 01-18-2006 03:07 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I'd get a chunk of that, which means I'd move it ahead of everything else. You'd get Grade A service.
To be frank, I'm also concerned about the alcohol and other drug abuse.

Hank Chinaski 01-18-2006 03:10 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
weren't those his plans? The 4 mos. or we raze plans?



Hmmm. Haven't gotten that vibe so much as the sense he was happy in a caretaker job at FEMA as a political thank you. He didn't come in with a desire to remake it or advance the ball, and didn't feel any need to do so. Then, just as he was getting ready to turn it over to the next guy, Katrina hits and he's fucked. He had hoped to slip out of town, and now he's confronted with a situation well beyond his capabilities, so he looks like a total buffoon.
Most administrations have dead depts based upon their politics. Like most Rep administrations let EPA wither, or the way Clinton fucked the military and intelligence services. both sides probably let FEMA wither.

sebastian_dangerfield 01-18-2006 03:14 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
To be frank, I'm also concerned about the alcohol and other drug abuse.
If your objective is to see me dance, my answer is

"How much?"

Diane_Keaton 01-18-2006 03:34 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
If you haven't done so yet, find and listen to all of Ray Nagin's comments of two days ago. I understand what he was trying to say, but what actually came out of his mouth was what I'd expect to see if the folks who did Best in Show did a movie on politics. His comment about "mixing milk and dark chocolate" and "making a delicious drink" was surreal. I haven't felt that embarrassed for anyone since watching Bush in the 2004 presidential debates.
Oh, you mean like these ditties?

When workers came to help rebuild New Orleans: "what can I do to make sure that New Orleans is not overrun by Mexican workers?"

Or the cause of the multiple hurricanes: God was "mad at America... for being in Iraq under false pretences....But surely he is upset at black America also. We're not taking care of ourselves."

Plus, he does that annoying "hide the alopecia" thing with the shaved head (who are you guys kidding??) and, an even worse offense: sporting a mustache without a beard. Very very gay.
http://starfileonline.com/output/RNAGI050907G122.jpg

taxwonk 01-18-2006 03:39 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
If you haven't done so yet, find and listen to all of Ray Nagin's comments of two days ago. I understand what he was trying to say, but what actually came out of his mouth was what I'd expect to see if the folks who did Best in Show did a movie on politics. His comment about "mixing milk and dark chocolate" and "making a delicious drink" was surreal. I haven't felt that embarrassed for anyone since watching Bush in the 2004 presidential debates.
I was waiting for this to come up. I couldn't believe it. It made me embarrassed to be part of the same species.

Diane_Keaton 01-18-2006 03:41 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
I was waiting for this to come up. I couldn't believe it. It made me embarrassed to be part of the same species.
Yes, you Dems are an "interesting" species indeed.

Replaced_Texan 01-18-2006 04:05 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
If you haven't done so yet, find and listen to all of Ray Nagin's comments of two days ago. I understand what he was trying to say, but what actually came out of his mouth was what I'd expect to see if the folks who did Best in Show did a movie on politics. His comment about "mixing milk and dark chocolate" and "making a delicious drink" was surreal. I haven't felt that embarrassed for anyone since watching Bush in the 2004 presidential debates.
The Daily Show coupled his comments with some inane thing Hilary Clinton said comparing the House to a Plantation and Nancy Pelosi's inability to control her base.

See Replacement Killers on their clips.

Gattigap 01-18-2006 06:22 PM

For Hank
 
Fark is running a contest commemorating Ted Kennedy's publication of his new children's book. Some creative ones in here -- with luck, you can update the macro!

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/tjmurphy...teddysbook.jpg

Gattigap

Sexual Harassment Panda 01-18-2006 07:05 PM

Chocolate Town
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Most administrations have dead depts based upon their politics. Like most Rep administrations let EPA wither, or the way Clinton fucked the military and intelligence services. both sides probably let FEMA wither.
No, even bush praised the job James L. Witt did at FEMA under the Clinton administration. Previously, it was known as a dumping ground for political patronage appointees.

Now it's nothing like that at all.

Sexual Harassment Panda 01-18-2006 07:07 PM

For Hank
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Fark is running a contest commemorating Ted Kennedy's publication of his new children's book. Some creative ones in here -- with luck, you can update the macro!

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/tjmurphy...teddysbook.jpg

Gattigap
Is that supposed to be bush in his youthful indiscretion phase, in the lower left?

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 01-18-2006 07:10 PM

For Hank
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
Is that supposed to be bush in his youthful indiscretion phase, in the lower left?
I assumed Kerry.

Tyrone Slothrop 01-18-2006 07:32 PM

The bottom line on ANWAR
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Unless George Will is lying, then if your definition of a wilderness is that it has no roads, then ANWAR is no longer a wilderness.

George Will said: "although there are active oil and gas wells in at least 36 U.S. wildlife refuges"

George Will said: "Those who have and who think it is "pristine" must have visited during the 56 days a year when it is without sunlight. They missed the roads, stores, houses, military installations, airstrip and school. They did not miss seeing the trees in area 1002. There are no trees.

George Will said: Ice roads and helicopter pads, which will melt each spring, will minimize man's footprint, which will be on a 2,000-acre plot about one-fifth the size of Dulles Airport.

I actually laughed out loud when I read this. Of all the people on this board, in my humble opion, your "cites" are the least reliable. So for you to want us to take your opinion on unammed information on the net is just a little ripe. As we have tried to explain to you before, opinions from blogs do not qualify as evidence.
Sorry to disappear for a while, but my neighbor must have moved his WiFi router.

Here's what the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service has said about the impact of development:

Quote:

Newer technologies that are applied today in Alaska's expanding North Slope oil fields include directional drilling that allows for multiple well heads on smaller drill pads; the re-injection of drilling wastes into the ground, which replaces surface reserve pits; better delineation of oil reserves using 3-dimensional seismic surveys, which has reduced the number of dry holes; and use of temporary ice pads and ice roads for conducting exploratory drilling and construction in the winter. As the oil fields expand east and west, additional oil reserves are consequently being tapped from smaller satellite fields that rely on the existing infrastructure at Prudhoe Bay and Kuparuk.

Although technological advances in oil and gas exploration and development have reduced some of the harmful environmental effects associated with those activities, oil and gas development remains an intrusive industrial process. The physical "footprint" of the existing North Slope oil facilities and roads covers about 10,000 acres, but the current industrial complex extends across an 800 square mile region, nearly 100 miles from east to west. It continues to grow as new oil fields are developed.

The 100-mile wide 1002 Area is located more than 30 miles from the end of the nearest pipeline and more than 50 miles from the nearest gravel road and oil support facilities. According to the U.S. Geological Survey, possible oil reserves may be located in many small accumulations in complex geological formations, rather than in one giant field as was discovered at Prudhoe Bay. Consequently, development in the 1002 Area could likely require a large number of small production sites spread across the Refuge landscape, connected by an infrastructure of roads, pipelines, power plants, processing facilities, loading docks, dormitories, airstrips, gravel pits, utility lines and landfills.

A substantial amount of water is needed for oil drilling, development, and construction of ice roads. Water needed for oil development ranges from eight to 15 million gallons over a 5-month period, according to the Bureau of Land Management. If water is not available to build ice roads, gravel is generally used. Water resources are limited in the 1002 Area. In winter, only about nine million gallons of liquid water may be available in the entire 1002 Area, which is enough to freeze into and maintain only 10 miles of ice roads. Therefore, full development may likely require a network of permanent gravel pads and roads.

Cumulative biological consequences of oil field development that may be expected in the Arctic Refuge include:
  • blocking, deflecting or disturbing wildlife
  • loss of subsistence hunting opportunities
  • increased predation by arctic fox, gulls and ravens on nesting birds due to introduction of garbage as a consistent food source
    alteration of natural drainage patterns, causing changes in vegetation
  • deposition of alkaline dust on tundra along roads, altering vegetation over a much larger area than the actual width of the road
  • local pollutant haze and acid rain from nitrogen oxides, methane and particulate matter emissions
  • contamination of soil and water from fuel and oil spills

Sorry if that's overkill to counteract the crap that Will was peddling in his op-ed column, but Spanky says my cites are unreliable -- frankly, I suspect he can't be bothered to read them, but whatever -- so I figured he'd be happier with the block-quote.

I don't understand why Spanky and Will are working so hard to avoid the obvious issues here. Lots of people oppose development of ANWR because they want the land to remain (relatively) undeveloped. Arguing, a la Will, that people who oppose developing ANWR are all a bunch of pinko collectivists is true in the same way that one might say that conservatives who support Bush's wire-tapping are fascists who want to turn America into a police state, which is to say that it's unbridled nonsense.

Why can't Will and Spanky just accept that a lot of people see a lot of benefit from leaving the land as it is?


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