Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I saw over the weekend that some Brits felt that way. If anyone other than a Muslim observed that the mess we've made of Iraq, and our siding with Israel over Lebanon, and our Middle East policy in general makes it more likely that young Arabs will want to bomb us, I think the observation would be non-controversial. The only difference when Muslims say it, as far as I can tell, is that we think their religious views may lead them to support terrorism, and so we think they ought to keep quiet, at the least.

If we are going to win this war, it's going to be by making common cause with Muslim moderates. To do that, it helps to listen to them.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

We need to get you out of that town. If you don't see the various stupid shit that happens in SF as cause for amusement instead of outrage, your tenure there will be unhappy indeed.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

That is a damn good point. We prop up SA, the fountain of a whole lotta this shit. I guess we're in this queer position where, if the despicable SA regime were to fall, an even more sinister form of Wahhabism would take its place, so we have to protect devil we know.

I blame GM. If we had electric cars, this'd all be moot.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

2. My family that's lived there for 30 years describes this silliness as "local color."

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

1) You aren't on the anti-Israel platform, so stop parroting their lies. We sided with Israel over Hezzbollah, a terrorist group funded by Syria and Iran and operating out of southern Lebanon to the chagrin of the powerless-Lebanese government - not Lebanon.

2) This foiled airline plot was planned months before these recent events in Lebanon and Gaza, so I wish you and others would stop lumping it in as some precursor.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

They weren't writing to imply thet knew more about how the terrorists' minds work than the rest of us? They didn't point to their positions in parliment to imply some position of leadership?



When you have to take off your shoes to get into your kid's public school sporting events maybe you'll start to understand. the fact is that the profiling mentioned above is something that will happen within 10 years- and the fact is that the people protesting it will be your ilk.

Can we kill them all?
 

I thought you were implying future successful attacks and a broading conflict.

Can we kill them all?
 

Believe me, I'm not laughing.

Can we kill them all?
 

If they are alive and well in some other country you are fine with that? Strange.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I have no seen anyone on these boards object to profiling for airport security.

Can we kill them all?
 

I wasn't aware that we had invaded Israel, Lebanon, Syria, etc. had been invaded. Are you suggesting that Iraq is a good foothold? It could be, if we were actually willing and able to implement a full-scale operation.

I don't think it can be done, realistically. I don't see us being willing to pay for it, in taxes and in lives. I don't see Israel standing for it, although it is an interesting theoretical problem, us occupying Israel for their own good. I certainly don't see the rest of the world standing by and letting the US march in to take over the Middle East, either.

So, it appears that we can't kill them all (although some seem at least willing to consider it) and we can't make them behave. What next?

Can we kill them all?
 

Not really, no. If you actually believe that you could expel all Arabs from the US without a major violent opposition, you're living in far more of a state of delusion than I thought. Of course, violent opposition will require violent response.

They don't need another 9-11. They can just sit back and wait for you to grow your own.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

(a) When you start a post with "not to disagree, but..." it suggests something other than strong assent. More importantly, you went on to blame the failure of Muslims to condemn extremism and terrorism on oppressive governments -- in essence, agreeing but offering a reason. And I was disagreeing with the reason.

(b) Not to disagree with you, but.... Oh, hell, I disagree completely. Hatred -- killing hatred -- doesn't spring up overnight, or from nowhere. Especially a hatred purportedly based on faith and religious teachings. It is learned over years. Here, it is learned from leaders, especially religious leaders or those who coopt religion, who express and applaud hatred and violence in sermons and conversations and posters and the like.

Tolerance, too, is learned over years. But the carrier of that message must have the same credibility, the same inside influence, that the people promoting hatred have. Otherwise, it's a message from outsiders that is ignored.

Whatever condemnation we've heard has been tepid to say the least. Muslim leaders need to condemn Muslims who attack civilians. Full stop. They need to stop suggesting that it's bad, but okay if the other side does it, or let's look at Israeli "terrorism", or the like.

What I am asking them to do is the same thing that you ask American leaders to do over, say, Abu Ghraib or Gitmo -- say that it is wrong, say that it is not our values, say that those who did it or directed it should be punished. And not say "all torture of prisoners is bad, whether its done by Americans or Iraqis or Israelis or Russians." Because the former means that you are taking a stand against your own people and government, and you are trying to be a voice that influences others of your own people. And the latter is just saying "a pox on both their houses" and is ultimately meaningless.

If they cannot take a strong stand now, publicly, then it is absolutely certain that they are not taking that stand when it really counts -- in the mosques and writings and schools and private discussions that really influence people's lives. Muslim children need to grow up thinking "my Imam says Hezbollah is wrong because they intentionally kill civilians," not "my Imam thinks that both Israel and Hezbollah use bad tactics, but at least Hezbollah is fighting for the right cause."

(c) The CAIR statement is a prime example. They give a general "condemnation" of "terrorist" by all -- states, not-states, individuals, blah blah blah. In other words, they are equating Israel's conduct with Hezbollah's. And they are not singling out people of their own faith and their own ethnicity and their own community and saying "this is wrong -- these people are wrong."

(d) Maybe, maybe not. But we did hear what they did say. And I suspect that if Muslim religious leaders were regularly speaking out against Hezbollah and Hamas, we would hear that too.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I'm sure John Walker Lindh and John Reed were okay with it, too. The problem with profiling is that it has as many gaps and allows for as many lapses as any other system that is dependent on humans, fallible as we are. Well, that, and the fact that it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I don't object to it but people should not see it as a panacea. How do you profile based on religion?

Can we kill them all?
 

I'm suggesting that we can't nation build without being there. I think this is obvious. If we are not willing to do this, and we are not willing to nuke the entire place, then we might as well just give up.

Incidentally, the history channel has been running a series called "Revolution" which details the Revolutionary War and it's aftermath. It's funny how many similarities there are between the creation of the US and Iraq. Were you aware that there was a great deal of civil strife in this country after we defeated the British? That Americans took up arms against one another?

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

At the time they were "operative" they looked like people who should be profiled- they were both clearly crazed looking- but for sure the most dnagerous thing is the "Aryan-Islamic" guy. Of course, they are available in seemingly small quantities (so far 2) so maybe the profiling would do some good (so far 20000 or so)? better or worse that the residue of plastic explosives?

Can we kill them all?
 

I agree that we can't do anything without being there. I don't think we can just give up, either.

I recall that last week you didn't want to pay for this. Have you had a change of heart? If you have, I'm not sure how many others have. I'm not trying to be obtuse here. I see a solution, but I don't see it as acceptable to the world.

I was aware of this. At least one part of the conflict was over an excise tax on barrels of booze. It was called the Whiskey Rebellion. President Washington ledd the militias of Pennsylvania, Virginia, and several other states against small distillers.

One result of the Rebellion was an object lesson that citizens of the several states would have to seek redress for laws they objected to through the political process. Another result was that many of the losing whiskey men moved to Kentucky and Tennessee, outside the boundaries of the United States. They begat moonshiners, who begat Junior Johnso, who begat Nascar.

Can we kill them all?
 

Being in the US is not a right, it's a privilege. Preach hate or be here under suspicious circumstances and your privilege should be immediately revoked.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I share your concerns, and to some degree get the same bad taste, but ultimately it is true that it is a waste of resources to focus our security measures on Sven Bjornson from Duluth.

Can we kill them all?
 

Does your rule apply to citizens too?

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I can't really say, not having much experience with either. Maybe you can ask Thurgreed about the profiling thing.

And if you are disturbed about ahving to get screened for your kids' athletic events now, how much more disturbing will it be sending them off to school every day to face a bunch of angry kids who are singled out for being patted down and having their lockers searched?

Can we kill them all?
 

Under your rule, you should be packing. Just something to think about. You know...Us v. You.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

We were siding with Israel over Lebanon (the issue, not the adversary) in the sense that we were opposed to a quick cease fire in order to permit Israel more time to try to accomplish its military objectives. The rest of the world noticed that Lebanon (generally) absorbed much the punishment, however meant for Hezbollah specifically.

I don't believe I said that it was a precursor. To observe that our Middle East policies stirs up animus against us is not to suggest that we are the cause of all unhappiness and/or terrorism.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I didn't say I was for or against profiling- I said it seems inevitable. And in that context asked whether members of Parliment who are Islamic, not "leaders apparently, might want to take steps to avoid the seemingly inevitable.

My son is one of the best basketball players, so he's friends with the black kids- PLUS he is in good with the chaldeans, so he'd be okay.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I didn't get that. Maybe it's something you read into it. Maybe you could point me to the line in their letter that you're relying.

Not over crazy Islamic men.

Maybe I understand better than you think I do.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I believe the main objection to profiling is that it would cost money to pay more for competent airport security, and Republicans do not wish to pay taxes.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

Actually what you said was "does it [profiling] taste better or worse than the residue of plastic explosives?"

Can't we just smile and appease???
 

From now on, would you prefer to be called "Chamberlain" or just plain "Neville"?

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

So instead they pay for it in inconvenience at the airport. Which, when you stop to think about it, is even worse because it is a tax on productive business! Think of all those biglaw partners who are travelling on the client's dime to the tune of $800+ an hour. Oh the humanity!

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I am grading their PR. Very Poor.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

OK. I'm just tired of the games I described on these boards. As debate, their tired. I would rather pay attention to what people say or do than look to some purported inconsistency with what they say or do and some other action or position. As you suggest, the important thing is what they say in the mosques and schools, etc.

I think we ought to take their words at face value. They condemn all terrorism. That surely includes blowing up passenger jets.

Notwithstanding your efforts to manufacture disagreement on my part, I basically agree with sebby's point that Muslims would rather criticize Israel's actions than Islamist terrorism or other atrocities committed by Muslims -- Darfur, anyone?

Can we kill them all?
 

Wait -- you're saying that our only choices are to invade a few more countries in the Mideast, secure in the knowledge that things will go as well as they have in Iraq, or surrender?

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

OK. I don't disagree (hi Sidd!) with that.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

The rest of the world was also subjected to endless propaganda (rigged photos, staged events, inflated casualty numbers), spewed by a complicit media, to make the Israelis look like a bunch of senseless butchers.

Where are the Reuters photos of the Israeli dead and the destruction from all the Hezzbollah rockets? Reading the papers, one would forget that Israel was merely defending itself.

Need I list (again) all of the Islamic terrorist activity pre-Bush?

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

I am sure that it does. I'm sure that from their perspective it also means bombing a rocket launcher and killing an innocent bystander in the process.

They equate the two. Do you?

And they seem to give no special attention to addressing their own. That's the problem.

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

Right. But it's all the fault of their mean governments, right?

(I wasn't "manufacturing disagreement" between you and someone else. I was disagreeing with something you said.)

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

again, to focus on airports is to ignore the real targets that are most threatened and least protectible. you all seem to ignore it.

What do you think will happen once the terrorists start blowing themselves up on the subway or at ballgames?

the attacks on the Embassies, WTC 1, the Cole all occured before Iraq and Afghanistan- 20000 jihadis were trained in Afghanistan Before 9/11.

Does getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan take us back to those days of safety? really- don't we have to throw Israel to the wolves also, and what if they want us to give up France or England?

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

How many rockets were fired into Israel from Southern Lebanon this year before Israel started bombing Lebanon?

Do yourselves a favor and shut the hell up.............
 

At this time they should have just condemned the actions and left it at that. Adding that such actions should be expected with Britians policies in the middle east makes it signed like they are partially justifiying and are using an implied threat.

Right after such an attack they should just vociferously and unequivacoly condemn the terrorist acts and leave it at that. If they have a problem with British foreign policy now is not the time to bring it up.