Immoral invasion?
 

I'm not standing in the "immoral" camp -- more in the "not in our strategic interest" camp -- especially in the absence of WMD.

However, I don't think it is irrational to argue about the morality of the war.

First important point, it was a war of choice, not a war of self-defense in the classic sense of responding to a direct attack.

Second point, the answer to your question depends on how you value the: (a) reality of the tens of thousands of lives lost in the invasion and its chaotic aftermath (U.S. and Iraqi, many innocent) who would most likely not have otherwise died during this period as against the (b) reasonable expectation that many other people would have suffered and died under any continuation of the Hussein regime/dynasty.

Hussein was/is quite evil, and the indefinite continuation of sanctions would have been both ineffectual and (in my view) immoral. However, it isn't as clear and easy as you suggest - even in hindsight. Just as there are no clear, simple and certain answers at this point in terms of "what to do now?", and "will it work?"

S_A_M

The Dems have hit on a strategy
 

That would certainly be a "win"

S_A_M.

The Dems have hit on a strategy
 

I just wanted to see this one again. Please consider this my nominee for thread title, post of the day, etc.

The Dems have hit on a strategy
 

Really? Tsk. Tsk.

Coulter, Limbaugh, Buchanan, etc. can have similar effects -- thus I ignore them.

S_A_M

Why Planting Stories in the Iraqi Press Is Bad
 

You keep telling me you have a strong sense of right and wrong. Yet you freely support the notion of killing people because they don't have the same idea as you about who it's okay to kill. Note that once you say it's okay to kill the insurgents, Saddam, terrorists, etc., you lose the ability to claim that you are morally opposed to killing. Therefore, the best you can argue is whether you or someone else gets to decide who will die.

You also say that it's bad to lie under oath, but you defend Sccoter Libby and Karl Rove. You also say that it's okay for us to spread democracy by planting propaganda. However, a free and accurate press is one of the strongest cornerstones of democracy.

You claim that we are not engaging in torture, but you defended the existence and maintenance of undeclared prisons and prisoners.

I'd suggest you worry less about my moral compass and try to find yours; it's obviously lost.

Why Planting Stories in the Iraqi Press Is Bad
 

If anyone is keeping track, I'd say the last few days have generated all the board mottos we're ever going to need.

Why Planting Stories in the Iraqi Press Is Bad
 

Bilmore, I was the one Spanky was addressing. Exactly what is it that I have said that allows you to conclude I'm a Bolshevik or Maoist?

You accuse me of being an absolutist. "There are no bad guys, just undiverse systems." However, it's Spanky and you who are claiming to be the absolutists. You hold your moral compass up like a shield.

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Spanky. You don't get to express contempt for me as being a moral relativist once you start arguing that it's okay to kill the Islamists because otherwise they will kill us. That's no moral compass, my friend. That's just another case of "God on our side."

And don't you dare accuse me or any other Jew of being someone who would be satisfied with responding to another Hitler by being "a little more circumspect."

If you have no sense of perspective, at least have a little shame.

The Dems have hit on a strategy
 

Yes, Bilmore, we should. If a political leader doesn't see the fact that we are winning, the correct response for the Administration, and its supporters, is not to callhim a traitor and shout him down. As Dr. Johnson said "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

As Captain and Gatti have correctly pointed out, the fact that Ty and Dean may not see the light at the end of the tunnel means it is incumbent on Bush and Cheney and YOU to point out where the light is.

That's what a democracy is all about. You remember democracy right? It's the system that allows people to challenge those in power, and to question the leadership. I think that's why our President Bush has said we're in Iraq. I know it's why you have said we're in Iraq.

Shouldn't our givernment be held to the same standards that were asserted as sufficient reason to take Saddam out?

The Dems have hit on a strategy
 

And when are you going to consider us as having won the war at home? Is there ever going to be room in your politics for expressions of popular will that don't mimic the expression of concentrated power?

Why Planting Stories in the Iraqi Press Is Bad
 

Back up. This was a generalized rant to Spanky that his looking for moral consideration or line-drawing from groups that can defend cultures that drop walls on gays and kill women for being raped as old, noble, defendable, and valid systems was naive, at best.

I think you reversed something here. I said basically the opposite - that such considerations were NOT absolutist, but were, instead, taking NO inconvenient moral position. And, it's a sword, not a shield.

I have no contempt for you, nor did I express any. And, there is no god, so I can't be claiming any divine right here - I do reserve, however, the right to kill those first who seek to kill me. Morality? Nope - just common sense. You must be thinking of someone else.

If and when I ever say such a thing, you should yell at me. Let's wait until that happens, though.

I have perspective, and I've done nothing shameful, unless we have verboten subjects such as "never, ever use jews in analogy." You sort of had to dig deep to come up with that bit of outrage.

The Dems have hit on a strategy
 

Fascinating how the right is trying so desperately to rewrite recent history. About the only issue the administration was willing to discuss at the time was the WMD one. You can go back and pick quotes from here and there to support the idea that other issues were debated, but they were not pursued anywhere near as vigorously by the administration. Colin Powell did not go to the UN with a slide show of rape rooms and receipts showing donations to al Qaeda. Please don't insult the intelligence of those who disagreed with you and the administration then by trying to force the administration's words into their mouths now. Bush sold this war on the basis of WMDs that didn't materialize. You are stuck with that fact.

That said, I agree with those here who say we cannot now leave and we are stuck with cleaning up the mess. Murtha turned up the heat on the debate, but nobody with any sense can argue we should just turn around, declare victory and go home. We are in it for the long haul. Powell was right about that much - Bush broke it, so how we own it.

The Dems have hit on a strategy
 

was it you who bet me we'd have invaded Syria by now? someone did, and I want my money.

The Dems have hit on a strategy
 

Not me. We're on for the Senate in 2006, and I plan to repeat my SB pool win, but that's all.

Why Planting Stories in the Iraqi Press Is Bad
 

Perhaps I misread you. Apparently you were invoking the Sebby/Paigow* corrollary to discussion: using another post as a mere jumping off point. I guess I need to get used to that; it seems to be happening a lot lately.

And if you are not a moral absolutist, then why were you expressing agreement with Spanky, since his entire argument on the war is based upon his incorrect assertion that it is his adherence to the universal moral code that compels the killing of Iraqi insurgents, because otherwise they would kill Americans? I accept your statement that you aren't a moral absolutist. I just don't understand the part where you are agreeing with Spanky.

Perhaps I failed to understand what you meant by this. Would you please elucidate?



*<sniff> I miss her <sniff>

The Dems have hit on a strategy
 

Honestly, the main use of the word "patriotism" I've seen lately has been the huge, uninformed (or maybe just plain dishonest) outcry that people were calling Murtha a coward. Aside from that Jean whatever character who used a quote aimed at labeling a course of action, every R i saw responding to Murtha was tripping over themselves to call him an honorable, worthy, patriotic guy. You just keep making up this shit about "you called him a TRAITOR!" Bull.

As for the rest of your post, I really missed how it responded to what I said.