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Hank Chinaski 02-19-2006 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
If you can't see the distinction between a few individuals and the entire body of the world's largest religion then you really ought to stick to more basic concepts.

For instance, fire: Good or Bad?
A few? So if you ever said you ate a "few" potato chips, what you mean is "hundreds of thousands."

taxwonk 02-19-2006 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
A few? So if you ever said you ate a "few" potato chips, what you mean is "hundreds of thousands."
Well, it's nowhere near hundreds of thousands, more like a few thousand. And on a planet where the population is measured in billions, the majority of whom are muslim, then even tens of thousands is, relatively, a few.

But all that is irrelevant. Gross generalizations, especially when inflamed by a passion that overwhelms common sense and intellect, is wrong. For instance, it would be just a wrong to say that "wife-beater" = "Dago-T" because, well, you know how the Italians are.

Hank Chinaski 02-19-2006 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
Well, it's nowhere near hundreds of thousands, more like a few thousand.
20000 trained in Afghanistan while clinton was doing "everything he could do" to fight terrorism. And Ty's blogs say that the Iraq insurgancy is 20-30000. We get to rely on blog cites too TW. Judicial estoppel and shit.

taxwonk 02-19-2006 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
20000 trained in Afghanistan while clinton was doing "everything he could do" to fight terrorism. And Ty's blogs say that the Iraq insurgancy is 20-30000. We get to rely on blog cites too TW. Judicial estoppel and shit.
I'll give you 50,000. Against over a billion muslims. You win. Except for the part where you can't explain away tarring an entire group based solely on the fact that they share a common religion. But maybe you can blame that on the Jews.

Hank Chinaski 02-19-2006 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
I'll give you 50,000. Against over a billion muslims. You win. Except for the part where you can't explain away tarring an entire group based solely on the fact that they share a common religion. But maybe you can blame that on the Jews.
huh?

I live in the city with the largest Arab population outside the mideast. I ain't got problems with the "whole group." To the contrary.

Your fight was wheter Ann Coultour's hate-speech was worse than Mikey's "documentaries." I can't defend her explitives. But that is one ignorant person making one ignorant statement that everyone knows is opinion. Racism will always be there Wonk- ain't going away.

Compare to Mikey or Rather who make shit up from whole cloth, style it as fact and try and change elections? Shoot, you say Bush was evil because he had lawyers opposing the Dems efforts to guess what a vote meant when there was a hanging chad. Ain't no need to guess what Mike and Danny wanted to do- fool the public by lying. Much worse.

Diane_Keaton 02-19-2006 09:55 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
If you can't see the distinction between a few individuals and the entire body of the world's largest religion then you really ought to stick to more basic concepts.
You can't have a meaningful discussion until you drop the fiction of "a few individuals."

SlaveNoMore 02-19-2006 10:18 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Diane_Keaton
You can't have a meaningful discussion until you drop the fiction of "a few individuals."
Seriously.

Have some of you people been reading the papers?

You've got hundreds of thousands in the streets each day - all over the world - screaming "Death to the West" and burning embassies and Christian churches.

You have leading Imams now demanding that the United Nations create new international law making the display of the "prophet" a punishable offense.

And Wonk, where are all these "millions" of moderates you are referring to? I sure don't see any of them telling these illiterates to shut up and go home.

Gattigap 02-19-2006 11:04 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Seriously.

Have some of you people been reading the papers?

You've got hundreds of thousands in the streets each day - all over the world - screaming "Death to the West" and burning embassies and Christian churches.

Huh. Do the articles I've read about Middle Eastern governments (or portions thereof) playing a role in orchestrating those burnings help or hurt the "they're all fucking fanatics" theorem?

Gattigap 02-19-2006 11:38 PM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Dexter Filkins is a NYT reporter whose writing on Iraq has always impressed me. I remember his missives (and subsequent interviews) about the taking of Fallujah some time ago, as he went in with US forces, and IIRC managed to capture both the horrors of war, the regular ambiguity and disappointments of US policy in the region, and profiles of courageous US personnel.

Since I suspect it'll soon go behind the firewall, I'm including the majority of this article, but click and read it all if you're able to. It's a good piece that makes me both encouraged and saddened.

Gattigap

  • Strategy Tragedy?

    By DEXTER FILKINS
    Published: February 19, 2006

    When I recently spoke with Maj. Gen. Joseph Peterson at his headquarters in Baghdad, it was impossible not to be overwhelmed by a feeling of what might have been. Peterson, a big, witty officer in charge of training the Iraqi police force, spent two hours laying out a plan to bring order to a fractious country, a plan that was everything the American enterprise had always failed to be: bold, coherent and imagined all the way down to the hinges on the office doors.

    The general volunteered for this job, leaving his family in Washington, and he works every day and every night on an assignment that will probably keep him in Baghdad for a year. When we met, he was wearing a blue baseball cap that said "police" in English and in Arabic, and he keeps a woodcut of Hammurabi, the Babylonian king, on his office wall to make sure he doesn't get ahead of himself. "An eye for an eye" Peterson said. "This society has been living under that rule for 3,700 years. Are you going to change this overnight? Did we change it overnight in our country?" Peterson seemed utterly determined to succeed. And it was not terribly difficult to imagine that he could. And then you think: if only we had done this three years ago.

    In nearly every military and diplomatic realm, the American effort in Iraq is finally beginning to show the careful planning and concentrated thinking that seemed to vanish the moment American troops entered Baghdad on April 9, 2003. We've heard progress reports in the past, of course, and they have often preceded a stunning setback. But what is new is the level of sophistication that Americans are bringing to their work, and the intensity of their engagement across so many fronts.

    A more subtle response to the insurgency was a long time in the making. American generals were caught flat-footed by the resistance that bloomed in 2003; they didn't plan for it, and they had no playbook to fight it. The result in the field often amounted to a war of attrition, which was designed to kill and capture as many insurgents as possible but which ended up alienating Iraqi civilians. These days, however, the military is making new efforts to help local Iraqis feel safe and secure in their homes. The two top American commanders, Gen. George Casey and Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, are proponents of placing far less emphasis on killing guerrillas and much more on working with the locals. In Baghdad, General Casey has set up a local counterinsurgency school, through which American officers must pass before they can head into the field. Find an American officer these days, and he is likely to tell you about the police officers he is supervising or the local council he's helping to set up.

    A new approach is equally evident at the American Embassy, where the current ambassador and erstwhile neoconservative, Zalmay Khalilzad, is employing a hands-on strategy that is positively Kissingerian in its realism. On some days, Khalilzad, a native of Mazar-i-Sharif, Afghanistan, and a Sunni Muslim, sits with Iraqi leaders for hours, fingering his prayer beads and hearing their complaints. In that sense, Ambassador Khalilzad could hardly differ more from his two predecessors, L. Paul Bremer III, who dispatched orders with the curtness of a viceroy, and John Negroponte, who, on instructions from Washington, stood largely out of view.

    According to Iraqis and Western diplomats, Ambassador Khalilzad is orchestrating an extraordinarily ambitious power play: coaxing Sunni political leaders into the government while splitting the more moderate Iraqi insurgents from the beheaders and suicide bombers of Al Qaeda. If he succeeds, Khalilzad could remake the political landscape, curtail the insurgency and give the Iraqi government a bit of solid ground to stand on. If he doesn't succeed, the possibilities are endless, few of them good. Still, the ambassador's strategy is bolder than anything yet attempted.

    Meanwhile, General Peterson, along with his boss, Lt. Gen. Martin Dempsey, is trying to construct nothing less than a new national army, a police force for every city and the logistical and educational apparatus to support them. In earlier American efforts, an Iraqi policeman was considered "trained" if he had passed through a few days of schooling. These days, the training is much more extensive. On most mornings, the streets in Baghdad echo not just with the sounds of car bombs but also with shots fired from the police shooting range.

    So far, there are signs that the new strategy may be working. As the Iraqi Army has taken over substantial portions of Iraq, insurgent attacks have declined from their peak in October. Of course, it's not clear whether that trend will continue. In the past, such trends have not. And Peterson isn't operating under any illusions about how long it will take him to complete his work. The charts that he uses to brief traveling Congressional delegations offer no date for when Iraqi Interior Ministry forces will be able to take full control of internal security.

    And there's the rub: the Americans have already had three years in Iraq. It seems reasonably clear, given the opinion polls at home and the elections ahead, that they will not get three more, at least not with troop deployments at their current levels. The prediction floated by senior Iraqi officials is that American, British and other foreign forces, now numbering 160,000, will fall below 100,000 by year's end.

    Given the chaotic situation that prevails in much of Iraq, that might not be enough. And even if American troops were to stay, it's not clear that the new American approach could succeed anyway. It may be that there are too many Sunnis with too many memories of being the group in power. Even with the best of intentions, Americans are still foreigners in Iraq; every day they do things — shoot up a car approaching a checkpoint, for instance — that make the Iraqis resent their presence. And the sectarian violence, which is turning every mixed Iraqi neighborhood into a battleground, might be too far along to turn around. Some officers, in private conversations, concede that they could lose.

Tyrone Slothrop 02-20-2006 12:56 AM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Seriously.

Have some of you people been reading the papers?

You've got hundreds of thousands in the streets each day - all over the world - screaming "Death to the West" and burning embassies and Christian churches.

You have leading Imams now demanding that the United Nations create new international law making the display of the "prophet" a punishable offense.

And Wonk, where are all these "millions" of moderates you are referring to? I sure don't see any of them telling these illiterates to shut up and go home.
If there are 700,000,000 to 1,200,000,000 Moslems in the world, and hundreds of thousands of them are marching in the streets -- hell, let's round up to a million, though that seems high to me -- that leaves, oh, about 699,000,000 to 1,199,000,000 moderates, no? Give or take, I mean.

SlaveNoMore 02-20-2006 05:26 AM

A Few Good Men...albeit none of them are muslim
 
Quote:

Gattigap
Huh. Do the articles I've read about Middle Eastern governments (or portions thereof) playing a role in orchestrating those burnings help or hurt the "they're all fucking fanatics" theorem?
Let's see:

1. Saudi Arabia sponsors Wahhabism as its State religion

2. Palestine (if they get to sponsor an Oscar, tey have a country) elects Hamas and sponsors pushing the Jews to the sea.

3) Syria - see #2

4) Iran - see #4

5) Indonesia - see #5

I could go on, but the point is obvious, and yours is naive.

sebastian_dangerfield 02-20-2006 09:25 AM

A Few Good Men...albeit none of them are muslim
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Let's see:

1. Saudi Arabia sponsors Wahhabism as its State religion

2. Palestine (if they get to sponsor an Oscar, tey have a country) elects Hamas and sponsors pushing the Jews to the sea.

3) Syria - see #2

4) Iran - see #4

5) Indonesia - see #5

I could go on, but the point is obvious, and yours is naive.
I agree with you on 1 through 4, but I think the Pacific Rim Muslims are a different, more moderate variety. Their govts have actively tried to root out the radicals. In fact, I think Indonesia has been involved in actual guerilla combat with radical Islamists for some time.

I think... I hope... that as India, Australia, Japan and China have gone will go all the nearby nations. From my layman's perspective, it looks to me like the Far East and India and West will squeeze radical Islam into a corridor from Afghanistan through the Middle East and throughout Africa. Europe is going to be a real battleground. It has all the economic stagnancy that radical Islam requires to take hold. Where you find robust welfare systems and abject poverty, Islam tends to breed (check the location of your closest mosque).

Europe needs to make a choice; placate the bastards or take them on.

Diane_Keaton 02-20-2006 09:31 AM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If there are 700,000,000 to 1,200,000,000 Moslems in the world, and hundreds of thousands of them are marching in the streets -- hell, let's round up to a million, though that seems high to me -- that leaves, oh, about 699,000,000 to 1,199,000,000 moderates, no? Give or take, I mean.
Obviously the issue extends beyond the individuals marching. Even polls that show "improvement" still have high percentages of Muslims saying they support suicide bombings and other terrorist acts. Example - even 7% of the "world's largest religion" is more than "a few individuals." This type of crap is a problem in the Muslim world -- something even Muslims have acknowledged. And what's up with the "non marchers=moderates"? You can blame this or that poster for drawing you into some useless argument but you sound retarded with this stuff.

sebastian_dangerfield 02-20-2006 09:32 AM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
You have leading Imams now demanding that the United Nations create new international law making the display of the "prophet" a punishable offense.
Pass the law; it'll be as enforceable as a Canadian speeding ticket. You'll see every newspaper in the civilized world publish a cartoon of the Prophet the next day.

Gattigap 02-20-2006 09:46 AM

A Few Good Men...albeit none of them are muslim
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Let's see:

1. Saudi Arabia sponsors Wahhabism as its State religion
Ah. So your argument extends beyond current events to more of a well-rounded, historical argument that Muslims are All Fucking Fanatics. Certainly, SA is a good place to start.



Quote:

4) Iran - see #4

5) Indonesia - see #5
It's hard to argue with this logic. It's what makes circular reasoning so strong.

Quote:

I could go on, but the point is obvious, and yours is naive.
Mine was a question, but don't let that stop you. I take your point. They're All Fucking Fanatics. So come on, let's suit up, soldier!

sebastian_dangerfield 02-20-2006 12:24 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
Obviously the issue extends beyond the individuals marching. Even polls that show "improvement" still have high percentages of Muslims saying they support suicide bombings and other terrorist acts. Example - even 7% of the "world's largest religion" is more than "a few individuals." This type of crap is a problem in the Muslim world -- something even Muslims have acknowledged. And what's up with the "non marchers=moderates"? You can blame this or that poster for drawing you into some useless argument but you sound retarded with this stuff.
They need to fucking lighten up about their religion. Judaism is about 4000 years older than Islam, and Israel is a secular state. Even the most Christian nations don't have theocratic or pseudo-theocratic systems. Until Muslims - everywhere - recognize that govt is secular and religion a private matter, we're going to have this shit going on. A full or partial theocracy simply can't co-exist with secular governments in the modern world. You can't reason or compromise with people who can't separate state action from duties of faith.

We're to blame for a lot of this, because we support SA, the fraudulent theocracy at the heart of radical Islam.

Spanky 02-20-2006 12:45 PM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
It seems reasonably clear, given the opinion polls at home and the elections ahead, that they will not get three more,
This is just flat out wrong. Bush has three more years, so the troops have three years, regardless of what happens.

Spanky 02-20-2006 12:51 PM

A Few Good Men...albeit none of them are muslim
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore

4) Iran - see #4

5) Indonesia - see #5

I could go on, but the point is obvious, and yours is naive.
You lost me here. What post were these referring to?

P.S.

With the amount of Johnny Walker you sucked up last night, I am surprized to see you posting before noon. I bet Less won't be conscious until late afternoon.

Not Bob 02-20-2006 01:00 PM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
This is just flat out wrong. Bush has three more years, so the troops have three years, regardless of what happens.
Not to quibble, but Congress could cut the funding. Similar to what happened after Watergate, when Ford -- even if he wanted to -- couldn't send in the B-52s to stop the North Vietnamese tanks rolling south down Highway 1 in the Spring of 1975 because Congress had eliminated money for military operations in Southeast Asia.

They won't, of course, but it is possible, if enough of the members suddenly decided that it was in their political interest to do so. Although Bush has no more elections to worry about, they do. Not that it will probably get that bad, but you never know.

Gattigap 02-20-2006 01:04 PM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
This is just flat out wrong.
Well, no shit. That's because you cut off the rest of his sentence, which ended, "at least not at current levels."

taxwonk 02-20-2006 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
huh?

Your fight was wheter Ann Coultour's hate-speech was worse than Mikey's "documentaries." I can't defend her explitives. But that is one ignorant person making one ignorant statement that everyone knows is opinion. Racism will always be there Wonk- ain't going away.

But you were defending her expletives. Arguing that it isn't as bad as Michael Moore's creative use of partial truths (read: lies) is defending Ann Coulter's racism.

It reminds me of when I catch one of my kids with their hand in the cookie jar and they respond by saying "he/she had some too." That may or may not be true, but it still doesn't make it alright that the one I caught was doing something wrong.

Congratulations. You've achieved the reasoning power of my 9 year old.

taxwonk 02-20-2006 01:40 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Pass the law; it'll be as enforceable as a Canadian speeding ticket. You'll see every newspaper in the civilized world publish a cartoon of the Prophet the next day.
You could do that. Or you could have the General Assembly tell the Fundamentalists that the world doesn't work that way, and like it or not, they have to adapt to it.

Neither approach will be very effective in the short term, but one is less belligerent.

sebastian_dangerfield 02-20-2006 01:44 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
You could do that. Or you could have the General Assembly tell the Fundamentalists that the world doesn't work that way, and like it or not, they have to adapt to it.

Neither approach will be very effective in the short term, but one is less belligerent.
Both tell the Fundies to go rub their knuckles in shit, so I'm fine with either.

sebastian_dangerfield 02-20-2006 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
It reminds me of when I catch one of my kids with their hand in the cookie jar and they respond by saying "he/she had some too." That may or may not be true, but it still doesn't make it alright that the one I caught was doing something wrong.
Actually, your catching your child doing something wrong is alright. You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. How else will they learn?

taxwonk 02-20-2006 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Actually, your catching your child doing something wrong is alright. You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. How else will they learn?
You make an excellent point. I wouldn't worry about a thing, Sebby. If you can get that handicap under 30 you'll make an excellent father.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 02-20-2006 02:53 PM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Not Bob
Not to quibble, but Congress could cut the funding. Similar to what happened after Watergate, when Ford -- even if he wanted to -- couldn't send in the B-52s to stop the North Vietnamese tanks rolling south down Highway 1 in the Spring of 1975 because Congress had eliminated money for military operations in Southeast Asia.

They won't, of course, but it is possible, if enough of the members suddenly decided that it was in their political interest to do so. Although Bush has no more elections to worry about, they do. Not that it will probably get that bad, but you never know.
2. At least hold hearings on the supplemental budget request. This year and again in 2007/08 (before elections). Congress knows the budget is a mess, and they're going to ask everyone to justify their budget, including Bush's war machine.

Tyrone Slothrop 02-20-2006 04:28 PM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Well, no shit. That's because you cut off the rest of his sentence, which ended, "at least not at current levels."
That's just Spanky being Spanky.

Diane_Keaton 02-20-2006 05:14 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Until Muslims - everywhere - recognize that govt is secular and religion a private matter, we're going to have this shit going on.
I'm not convinced secular government is going to put an end to the belief among Muslims that suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism are acceptable. Turkey is a secular government yet you still read polls showing almost 20% of residents supporting terrorist bombings. To the extent a secular government improved a country's economy and education level, you'd probaby see less support of terrorism. But I think the acceptance of violence is more a cultural thing (no, I didn't say biological). Speaking of cultural acceptance of violence, I've spoken to quite a few people from places like Sierra Leone and Liberia and am told at this point, the notion of violence and death is so completely different there than our Western views. Whatever.

Spanky 02-20-2006 05:48 PM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Gattigap
Well, no shit. That's because you cut off the rest of his sentence, which ended, "at least not at current levels."
When you ad that qualifier it still is flat wrong. Bush does not need to be reelected, so he will keep the troop strength at whatever he wants. The Odds of the Dems taking over the Senate and the House are beyond remote, and even if they did, the chance that they could get the votes to cut off funding, with Bush threatening to Veto everything they hold dear, are deminimus.

Bush sees Iraq as the main issue his presidency will be remembered and judged by posterity, he will do whatever he thinks necessary to defend his legacy.

Until there is a new President, Bush has Carte Blanche to keep the troop levels at whatever he wants regardless of public opinion.

Any statement to the contrary flies in the face of political realities.

Spanky 02-20-2006 06:03 PM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
2. At least hold hearings on the supplemental budget request. This year and again in 2007/08 (before elections). Congress knows the budget is a mess, and they're going to ask everyone to justify their budget, including Bush's war machine.
The Republicans in Congress may complain and perform for the cameras, but they will never cut the funding the adminstration requests for Iraq. To do so would incure the full wrath of the Whitehouse.

When Bush is out it is whole new ball game. But as long as he is in he will determine the policy of Iraq.

sebastian_dangerfield 02-20-2006 07:00 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
I'm not convinced secular government is going to put an end to the belief among Muslims that suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism are acceptable. Turkey is a secular government yet you still read polls showing almost 20% of residents supporting terrorist bombings. To the extent a secular government improved a country's economy and education level, you'd probaby see less support of terrorism. But I think the acceptance of violence is more a cultural thing (no, I didn't say biological). Speaking of cultural acceptance of violence, I've spoken to quite a few people from places like Sierra Leone and Liberia and am told at this point, the notion of violence and death is so completely different there than our Western views. Whatever.
An Arab friend told me they understand nothing but a boot. I think that's true of the nuts, but I'm reluctant to believe any nation or religious group is entirely unredeemable.

Spanky 02-20-2006 07:26 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
I'm not convinced secular government is going to put an end to the belief among Muslims that suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism are acceptable. Turkey is a secular government yet you still read polls showing almost 20% of residents supporting terrorist bombings. To the extent a secular government improved a country's economy and education level, you'd probaby see less support of terrorism. But I think the acceptance of violence is more a cultural thing (no, I didn't say biological). Speaking of cultural acceptance of violence, I've spoken to quite a few people from places like Sierra Leone and Liberia and am told at this point, the notion of violence and death is so completely different there than our Western views. Whatever.
20%? Twenty percent is pretty much politically insignificant. I bet twenty percent of the people in this country would have no problem nuking the entire middle east.

I am surprized that 80% of Turkey does not support the suicide bombing in Israel. I don't understand Al Queda, but I can understand the Palestinian suicide bombers. I don't support or condone what they do, but if someone else was occupying the land my forfathers had lived on for twenty generations, and they were occupying the reservation they had put my family on, and in addition, there were no jobs and no prospect for a future, I might strap on some bombs and head for the border.

Diane_Keaton 02-20-2006 07:56 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
20%? Twenty percent is pretty much politically insignificant. I bet twenty percent of the people in this country would have no problem nuking the entire middle east.
One out of every 5 people supporting terrorism. Insignificant? No way. And if by "politically" insignificant you mean the chances of a terrorist supporter being elected to government....that's not the only harm. 20% means terrorist groups can be formed, funded and function more brazenly.

And no way would 20% of Americans have "no problem" nuking the entire middle east. There's no evidence to suggest this, unless you're using Less as the Nielsen rating for that view.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 02-20-2006 08:03 PM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
The Republicans in Congress may complain and perform for the cameras, but they will never cut the funding the adminstration requests for Iraq. To do so would incure the full wrath of the Whitehouse.

When Bush is out it is whole new ball game. But as long as he is in he will determine the policy of Iraq.
That assumes the full wrath of the White House matters. I'm not sure, and the midterm elections will tell us a fair amount, whether that wrath is in fact to be feared.

Gattigap 02-20-2006 08:57 PM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
with Bush threatening to Veto everything they hold dear,
Huh. I wonder what that would be like.

SlaveNoMore 02-21-2006 12:26 AM

Three steps back, two steps forward
 
Quote:

Gattigap
Huh. I wonder what that would be like.
Maybe he finally got the pen I mailed them.

sebastian_dangerfield 02-21-2006 09:31 AM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
And no way would 20% of Americans have "no problem" nuking the entire middle east. There's no evidence to suggest this, unless you're using Less as the Nielsen rating for that view.
20%? Try 40%. The whole damned lot of them over there are a huge drain on the world economy.

Could you imagine how different things would be if we had bombs as strong as nukes, but delivering none of the long term fallout?

Diane_Keaton 02-21-2006 10:11 AM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
20%? Try 40%.
Sorry, but no. 50% of Americans do not even agree that it's okay to restrict at least "some" civil liberties of Muslim Americans. Almost 1/2 of Americans say their liberties shouldn't be restricted "in any way." Less than 30% believe Muslim civic organizations should be monitored for their activities and fund-raising.

Given the above, I have a hard time imagining 40% of Americans would love to commit genocide against Muslims.

ltl/fb 02-21-2006 11:27 AM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
Sorry, but no. 50% of Americans do not even agree that it's okay to restrict at least "some" civil liberties of Muslim Americans. Almost 1/2 of Americans say their liberties shouldn't be restricted "in any way." Less than 30% believe Muslim civic organizations should be monitored for their activities and fund-raising.

Given the above, I have a hard time imagining 40% of Americans would love to commit genocide against Muslims.
If we let the ones who are already in Europe live, it's not really quite genocide. I mean, at a minimum, for genocide we'd have to round up everyone here and in Europe and send them back before nuking. Or bombing into oblivion. It's more like when a castle didn't give in to a siege -- when the besiegers finally got in, frequently they'd kill everyone inside, to set an example. But they weren't obliterating e.g. the entire families of all the people in there, just everyone at the location in question. It's a geographic thing, not a racial/familial thing.

How many planes do we have capable of dropping really big bombs? I would think enough to pretty much obliterate most of the population centers within a couple days, which would leave minimal time for escape.

Hank Chinaski 02-21-2006 12:15 PM

A Few Good Men
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
If we let the ones who are already in Europe live, it's not really quite genocide. I mean, at a minimum, for genocide we'd have to round up everyone here and in Europe and send them back before nuking. Or bombing into oblivion. It's more like when a castle didn't give in to a siege -- when the besiegers finally got in, frequently they'd kill everyone inside, to set an example. But they weren't obliterating e.g. the entire families of all the people in there, just everyone at the location in question. It's a geographic thing, not a racial/familial thing.

How many planes do we have capable of dropping really big bombs? I would think enough to pretty much obliterate most of the population centers within a couple days, which would leave minimal time for escape.
ummm..... I'm afraid i have to disagree with your plans here. I eat hummus and shwarma at least a couple of times a week. i don't want some white bread american version.


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