Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

It's OK to torture because we haven't developed an effective truth serum yet?

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

They didn't invent it. But they have routinized and legalized it. We prosecuted Japanese as war criminals for waterboarding POWs. It's hard to imagine that we could ever do that again, now that we've told the world that we're OK with it.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

We tell other nations all the time that they cannot have nukes.

Hypocritical? You betcha.

Sound policy? Absolutely.

The anti-American brigade - moving ever so slowly to the front of the Dem party - is so blind in their hatred if Bush that they ignore that the USA, while clearly not mistake-proof, also exerts its power with the utmost care and highest discipline.

I actually trust our government - and most especially our military - to almost always use whatever force or action is necessary, and that is it. Of course there will be mistakes, but that is the unfortunate side effect of volume: it's a bitch being the policeman of the world.

PS - if these Europeans, other than Great Britain, really loathed our military so much, they'd raise their fucking taxes and actually build a useful standing Army.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

That's not actually the deal we have with them. There are a series of non-proliferation treaties under which we -- and other nuclear nations -- agreed to move to give up nukes over time, etc. Your point about hypocrisy is well taken. The idea that we can forego our obligations under these treaties but expect other nations to live up to theirs -- it doesn't work so well. As for sound policy, if you want other countries to cooperate with a non-proliferation regime, they don't respect the hypocrisy.

You are sadly misinformed about the Democratic party. As for "the utmost care and highest discipline," you haven't been paying attention to what we've been doing in Iraq, which makes a mockery of your words from top to bottom, but the rest of the world has.

"necessary"? How can you use that word after our invasion of Iraq? You've got to come up with something else, because that's a joke. Try, "we thought it was a good idea at the time, kinda," although that gets you into trouble with the "what a good policeman for the world we are" thing,

What would Europe do with a larger standing Army? They don't want to invade Iran or North Korea.

hoo-boy
 

PB K-race: Stack up all the most embarrassing Gore quotes you can find, and we'll try to match them one-for-one with embarrassing Bush quotes. Rule: quote has to be in haec verba.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

Except the other branches of government, that is?

You are what a Classics professor would call a fucktardus.

Say rather that he's apolitical.
 

Indeed, perhaps somewhere in a cave in Afghanistan is this generation's Wernher von Braun.

hoo-boy
 

that is a good race, but not "embarasssing" quotes. I said "quotes that show a delusional self-worth that makes it extremmely important that the person never hold power." You should start stacking, because I don't think you beat this one.

hoo-boy
 

"Mission Accomplished"

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

You never respond to this point, Hank. Apparently you trust government agents who want to torture people to exercise good discretion, but you don't trust other government agents to use good discretion about when to punish them. The only government actors whom you trust are the ones who want to torture people.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

Atticus said "other branches" you say "other agents." i don't trust other branches, or at least one of the "other" branches because right now it is making arguments (similar to yours) that seem to be historically wrong. That same branch is also chasing political goals instead of doing what it deems best for the country, so no, i do not trust at least one branch.

I don't even know what you are asking, but if you can explain what you meant, i will consider whether i can opine.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

You're right that Atticus and I are making different points. I find it odd that you think that the legislative branch is the only branch chasing political goals instead of doing what it deems best for the country -- presumably this wasn't true when the GOP Congress did the White House's bidding a few years ago -- but, whatever.

My point went to whether torture should be outlawed. If it is, and if the CIA (e.g.) tortures someone to find a suitcase nuke in Manhattan, then a government prosecutor will have to decide whether to bring charges. I trust that prosecutor to exercise his or her discretion, and I trust a judge and defense counsel to make sure it's exercised well. You guys don't.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

if it is outlawed, why wouldn't they bring charges? de minimis torture?

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

Prosecutorial discretion.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

Eh. Maybe it is hypocritical in the abstract. It certainly is sound policy.

It's also something that's really been enforced more by the market, if you will. Countries without the resources (money and brains) to build nukes don't. Countries with those resources (South Africa, India, Israel, Pakistan, and apparently North Korea) manage to violate the treaty and justify the violation.

Dude, McGovern lost, and hasn't been seen since. Even Jimmy Carter increased defense spending. The "anti-American brigade" you are talking about -- led by regular posters on Kos, I assume -- is nowhere near the levers of power. Who among the leading candidates for president do they support? Kuccinich? They certainly don't seem to like either Hillary or Obama.

And the other party has just as many anti-government blind haters as do the Democrats. "Charlton Heston is my president." "I love my country but I fear my government." "The ATF = jackbooted thugs."

I don't necessarily disagree with you here. I just think that the expansive positions taken by the Administration on what is torture and what the president's authority is are terribly wrong. And I don't blame the Joint Chiefs for any of that.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

no. you guys keep alleging we misuse that. I don't want the burden.

They're With Fred. (Until, of course, they get fired or quit.)
 

It's a bit inside baseball, but still I found this WaPo article on the genesis and subsequent sputtering of the Fred Thompson campaign pretty interesting. It's not really an epitaph, but it feels like one, and it's odd to be seeing it a month and a half before the first caucus.

Gattigap

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

Don't forget, NotBob, that Slave's recent history is to live in hippie-dippie urban enclaves where the bras burn, the dope is dope, and the walk to the financial district invariably takes him past professional panhandlers. He chooses these (to a conservative) depressing venues because, of course, that's where the hot chicks are -- but it unfortunately colors his worldview a bit. After all, reports are that McGovern became one of the panhandlers.

Gattigap

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

Of course, the difference is that the Republicans actually let their crackpots at the controls. The gun-nuts and the Christian right wear holes in the carpets of the White House - did Clinton ever have Louis Farakhan over for tea and footsie?

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

So if we allege you misuse torture, you'll drop that too? Cool.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

2. don't ask. don't tell.

They're With Fred. (Until, of course, they get fired or quit.)
 

The good news for Fred: In two weeks, this'll be old news, and he can make a comeback.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

This "hate America" crowd apparently is the 15% of voters who don't want to see the country defended.

DUN DUN. Doo doo doo doo, doooo
 

An interesting parallel would be the slow, dripping death of the Law and Order franchise.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

Too bad he didn't mention the number of lefties who want to the country attacked.

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

2

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

Which is to say, I believe the number is 2, more or less.

We're With Ron
 

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

you mean of the libs that post here regularly?

Millions for defense; not one penny for tribute!
 

The army won't - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21773960/

AMA vs. Republicans?
 

Interesting press release from the AMA.

Problem: the Republicans like private plans called Medicare Advantage plans. They're essentially privately run HMOs. Medicare pays the plans a certain amount of money to provide care to seniors. Those plans get 112 percent of what an average senior's care per Medicare. Republicans like them because free market, yada yada yada. The 2008 physician fee schedule for regular Medicare came out, and it cuts Medicare reimbursement to physicians by 10.1% (average, depends on specialty and location, some actually get a bit of a boost, but it's definitely more of a loss than a gain for physicians).

The AMA and every other specialy group (except maybe anestheiologists, like they already don't make money hand over fist...) is not particularly anxious to let the cut happen.

There was a fix in the both SCHIP bills, but they got scrapped in an effort to meet a veto proof majority in the Senate. The fix was to take some money away from the Advantage plans and redistrubute over the rest of Medicare.

'Twill be interesting to see how this plays out in an already complicated (and hotly contested) healthcare arena.

The Come Back Kid
 

Mark Foley plans a come-back. I trust all you Rs who have defeneded him are going to be there for him now. (Spree - includes another story about a former R Congressman going to jail - those of you sticking your head in the sand shouldn't click on the click).

Observation
 

In the last couple of days, I have heard or read reports about how Republican candidates were all jockeying to be the purest candidate on immigration, taxes, and abortion, and it struck me that the Republicans are now very much in the position Dems were in back in the 70s, where their primaries really are run by some pretty hard-core ideologues.

So right now, pretty every Republican is trying to take a hard right position on abortion, immigration, and taxes, while the Dems are making clear in debates that they're not going to withdraw from Iraq right away, that they aren't going to push any budget busters, and that they have thoughtful, mixed positions on almost every issue (except Choice - that's still the D litmus test issue).

I'm sure you've already noticed this, and I'm not mentioning anything new, but it really struck me listening to the last couple of days news on the primaries. So what the hell are you Rs going to do about it?

The Come Back Kid
 

so. Democrat Presidets Jackson, Van Buren and Polk all OWNED SLAVES! http://www.nas.com/~lopresti/ps.htm

The Come Back Kid
 

How do you do that without getting sand in your mouth?

Observation
 

After 8 years of Hillary, and 4 years of malaise under Obama, we'll be back better than ever.

Observation
 

You know that during Hillary's term we're going to amend the consistitution so Bill can come on back in, don't you?

Observation
 

And this unlike the current Dems how?

The Come Back Kid
 

By the way, Romney hopes to be the next one.

Observation
 

Hillary Fucking Ensues?