Excommunicated
 

Outside of Unitarianism, and perhaps some Western interpretations of Buddhism, every religion, and I'd go farther and say every organization of any sort, has some fundamental beliefs. Infallibile doctrine represents those fundamental beliefs in the Catholic Church.

For the US, infalliability is enshrined in our concepts of freedom and democracy. Yes, how we interpret them will change with every generation, but not our fundamental belief in freedom and democracy.

Excommunicated
 

And lets not forget to kick out those people who sodomize young boys also. You know, those men who grab a young kid and fuck him in the ass. Ever heard of it? Really nasty, really fucks up the kid. Kind of thing you don't want to hear about when you're busy making lists of sinners like the Kennedys and patting yourself on the back for perfect mass attendance (are you sure you put enough in the collection plate last week? Father murphy's Jag has a bent tailpipe, and his subscription to Boy's Life is about to tun out). While we're about getting rid of the scum of the earth who merely support allowing someone to have the legal right to do something our republic has determined is an individual's right, lets make sure we also get rid of those pesky misdemeanor offenders who fuck small children. Oh, and lets be sure to slap the "management" who covered up the child-screwing with some sanctions as well. Maybe knock a few stars off their frocks?

Sympathy for the Devil
 

I can't help it if you're waiting because you asked the wrong question.

Being involved in the war in Iraq does nothing to answer the following question: "What type of help would we have garned if we had avoided Iraq and gone after the actual people who attacked us?"

We don't necessarily need to classify countries as allies in the classic sense (meaning they will back us up by sending troops to war), but we may have been able to exploit cooperation on other levels. That's what I'm interested in. Share some intelligence with me on the people you know are shady in your country -- you know, the ones that may or may not be plotting the next big attack on the US. As it stands, unless you are England or Australia (or Tonga), you've been treated like an annoying fucking child. Why the hell would another country expend time, money and energy to expose cells that aren't necessarily an immediate threat to them for us? This "US lays down the law, you're either an Ally or something to be stepped on in our path to the spread of democracy" ain't gonna cut it. That isn't going to get us any closer to closing in on these cells that pose the real threat.

TM

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

INTERESTING INTERVIEW with new Economics Nobelist Edward Prescott:

Prescott, speaking from Minnesota, where he advises the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, described Kerry's plan to roll back tax cuts for top wage-earners as counterproductive.

"The idea that you can increase taxes and stimulate the economy is pretty damn stupid," he said.

Bush's campaign on Monday released a letter signed by Prescott and five other Nobel laureates critical of Kerry's proposal to roll back tax reductions for families earning $200,000 or more.

In The Republic interview, he said such a policy would discourage people from working.

"It's easy to get over $200,000 in income with two wage earners in a household," Prescott said. "We want those highly educated, talented people to work."

Prescott also gave Bush the nod on another controversial campaign issue, dismissing Kerry's claims that outsourcing of jobs is damaging the economy. . . . Prescott also backed the idea, espoused by Bush, to reform Social Security by allowing some workers to place a portion of their payroll taxes into private savings accounts.

http://www.azcentral.com/php-bin/cli...rescott19.html

Excommunicated
 

I'm on board in spirit, but I do think there is such a thing as repetance and forgiveness. But, of course, I wouldn't leave a bunch of unrepentant Cardinals milling about in charge of things, and for many like Cardinal Law, I think the proper penance would be a life of solitude and repentance in a monastery.

Excommunicated
 

It is as intellectually dishonest when used to further a form of government as it is when use to further a form of belief.

To say that the founding fathers believed that democracy was an infallibly correct form of governance is incorrect. They fought like bastards over what form of a republic we should have.

Kerry on the war on terror
 

Right, there were two votes. The first didn't pass. The second did, and Kerry voted against it. 30 of the senators that voted for the first bill also voted for the second bill. Kerry did not. So after his bill was defeated, he voted against the only remaining bill that would fund the troops - hence, "I voted for it before I voted against it." That's responsible.

We've talked about this before. It is not the disent, it is the manner in which it is done. Without rehashing the entire debate, there is a way to do it that is presidential, and a way to do it that is not. Kerry has, at times, chosen the latter, although he positioned it much more presidential in the debates.

I'm talking about the fact that when Bush calls the French on their bullshit you squawk about a lack of diplomacy, but when Kerry calls Allawi on something Kerry thinks is bullshit he is just calling a spade a spade.

I don't know but that's not the point. A good diplomat never utters words remotely like this.

Heh. They don't issue us the decoder rings that Gatti passes out at your meetings.

And you like to forget that the Democrats were also in favor of the war in Iraq, until Howard Dean started to pull away in the polls. Then it became OK to be against it, even if you were for it.

eft

catholic Catholics
 

I've not read all the posts about the Catholics and excommunication, and someone may have posted this, but the vatican has stated that the "auto-excommunication" memo being bandied about is NOT its position, and represents only the writer of the letter.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/sto...ns/0405749.htm

Excommunicated
 

Jail is more like it. If a mother allowed her husband to rape her daughter for years and was complicit in covering it up, she'd be charged. Law should have been charged. You don't "clean house" by slapping people on the wrist. make the fat bastard taste what he was complicit in allowing. I can think of no more correct punishment than having someone teach him what its like to have a hand up his frock.

catholic Catholics
 

Got a taste of what you're in bed with yet on the pro-life front? Its a real cavalcade of Mensa members and real pillars of society. Great group. Real open minded folks.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

After the Laffer curve was demonstrated to be complete bunk, you'd have to be pretty damn stupid (or an academic economist) to believe that tax policy discourages people from earning more income.

Excommunicated
 

I'd love to see the guy charged, and think that the faith requires taking your just punishment as part of repentance, but the chances that the US Atty will charge a Cardinal in Massachusetts is pretty slim. It hasn't happened in the Bush administration, and I don't think it will happen in the Kerry administration.

Kerry on the war on terror
 

This has been the Democrats' biggest problem this election - they can't decide what they want to be when they grow up. They're torn between representing the Demo wing of the Demo party, and corralling the many more moderates out there. For a bit, it looked like they would go moderate, but then Dean came on the scene, and skewed it horribly - they had to go left to counter what he was doing, and to regain who he was attracting. Now, with Dean out of the way, they want the moderates again, but they're stuck with all of the things they said and did in the anti-Dean fight.

Not that the Repubs wouldn't do the same - it's just that, when you campaign for an incumbent, you don't have all of that "all-over-the-map" primary stuff to contend with.

Kerry, being what he is, has done a less than perfect job of reassuring all concerned that he will be "their" president. His problem is, he can't be all of those things. His constituency is just way too spread out. He could have simply been vague - instead, he waffled. Wrong choice.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

This was only in response to Ty assertion that "no serious economist" believes in the tax cuts. I think this guy qualifies, and probably beats out you and I in the process.

Or, maybe he's pretty damn stupid.

Team America
 

Apparently, the film incenses the self-important, hand-wringing communists over at Democratic Underground.

Worth a gander, for a laugh.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

(1) Of course raising taxes will have some marginal effect on the economy. But then, so will borrowing money. Let's just get rid of all taxes, and borrow the whole budget!

(2) Kerry's objection to outsourcing is that it's hurting workers, not damaging the economy. Republicans are unclear on the difference -- middle-class voters who fear for their jobs are not.

(3) "Reforming" Social Security by letting people place money in "private savings accounts" is OK to say, but if you call this "privatizing" you are a shrill critic of the President. Got it.

Excommunicated
 

And Catholics fight like bastards over the exact meaning of the Assumption of Mary, the only teaching generally recognized within the church as indisputably coming under the doctrine of infallibility.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

I'd rather we elected a Republican, (none running this year, unfortunately), and dispense with this idea that we need one of those two ways to fund a growing government.

The only way to see a difference between the two is either through wilfull ignorance, or a perception that illogical pandering might win an election.

Huh? I think Bush called it privatizing.

Team America
 

I finally saw 9/11. what a disjointed piece of crap. I really don't get what you guys are talking about when you say there are damaging facts. it was pretty clearly a hatchet job, and a dumb one at that.

what in the movie rang true for you guys?

Kerry on the war on terror
 

There was no question -- none -- that the troops would get funded. The only question was how. Taxwonk now has my proxy on this.

It's hard for me to believe that you want to pick this fight. With Bush's malapropisms, faux folksiness (fauxiness?), scowling, grimacing, and so on, it's a wash for you guys, at best.

First of all, I don't know what you're talking about. Second of all, my objection to Bush's approach to diplomacy is not that it lacks decorum or respect, but that it serves our country's interests poorly.

"Bring it on." And a good diplomat doesn't build a "coalition" of the coerced and bribed. (I might say something about the particular countries in the coalition, but after the vice-presidential debate the White House removed the list and links to it from the White House web site.)

You don't need a decoder ring, only seventh-grade English.

No. There is now and there has been a split among Democrats over the war. Many Democrats supported it. Many opposed it. Howard Dean was the first viable candidate to oppose it, and got support for tapping into the people who felt unrepresented.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

I said no serious economist believes the tax cuts were the best way to spur the economy, and what you posted does not contradict me. On this point, I will rely on club, who has repeatedly pointed out that the bulk of the stimulus from the tax cuts has yet to even go into effect.

Excommunicated
 

Actually, no. One cannot choose between the life of the mother and the life of the fetus. Therefore, even if the life of the mother is in direct and immediate jeapordy, it is against Church doctrine to abort the fetus to save her life.

However, if, in the process of saving her life a fetus is aborted unintentionally, as a side effect, that is OK because there was no intent to terminate it. Atticus can correct me if this has been refined in the last 15-20 years, but I think it is still current. Yes, this sets off my bullshit meter, too, so don't ask me to justify it. FWIW, "medical treatment" other than birth control has also justified the use of the pill (though why "preventative medical treatment" doesn't justify condom use is beyond me - maybe sex is voluntary and therefore no medical treatment making it safe is ever "necessary," while regulation of menstrual cycles is legit even for virgins). See, generally: the doctrine of the double effect.

FWIW, I do agree that one has to respect the Church for refusing to back down on what it considers a fundamental belief just because it is unpopular. Better to lose 90% of adherents than to taint them all, I suppose. And, if you think abortion is murder, it isn't really legitimate to say "well, I don't like it but I don't think I should impose my beliefs on others." If a fetus is a person with a soul (or whatever) and with as much a right to live as any other person, then there is a real problem with the "I'll just mind my own business" stance, and if you don't believe me substitute "female children" or "black people" for "fetus" and see where it gets you. (However, I don't think most people who hold the "mind my own business" position think this - I think they just find abortion distasteful, the same way they are squeamish about drowning kittens. If I'm wrong, they are unbelieveable moral cowards.)

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

Why would a real Republican run if you guys will vote for someone like Bush?

Bullshit. Because many workers don't benefit from an improving economy. And they know it. Tell a fifty-five-year-old man who just lost his job to India that he should be happy that the stock market is up.

I thought yesterday's ruckus was the White House's denial that he wants to privatize.

Team America
 

I don't recall anyone here praising the movie.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

Dean and Kucinich are sitting at home right now, thinking the same thing.

There is no way that involves a time period of more than six months to "help workers" that doesn't involve "helping the economy." If you do something that "helps workers" at the expense of the economy, you'll have more workers hurt within that time. There's no big pot to take wealth from - it's the economy that fuels everything.

I thought it was over the "secret plan" to push this through quickly in January without talking about it.

Team America
 

Likewise, I'm going to avoid praising whatever's on TV this Wednesday night.

And, likewise, I'll probably chuckle gleefully when it's mentioned.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

So he won a Nobel Prize. Big Deal. Since when do we care what the Swedes think about economics? They don't even have an army.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

The difference is that the Dems on this board aren't sitting around lamenting that a "real Democrat" isn't on the ticket. Look in the mirror.

Kerry on the war on terror
 

Good, your off that bull shit that he just voted for a different way to fund and have conceeded it was a protest vote. A CIC does not have this luxury, however, nor should someone who wants to give protest votes at the expense of sending a clear message to our troops be president.

What in the hell does this have to do with anything, other than deflecting the critisism of your candidate?

As is my objection to Kerry's approach.

Again, not responsive.

Yes, and many supported and opposed it.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

I read that, and I wondered why someone didn't smack him and say "who the hell do you think ordered all those damn knives?!"

Team America
 

I was a little upset until I learned that Sinclair owned WB and UPN affiliates. Hell, I don't even know what channels those are on my local cable. I doubt too many people expecting to see America's Next Top Model will stay tuned to watch a bunch of boring ugly old white guys.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

I'm guessing there are more Dems sitting around lamenting the choice of Kerry than Repubs sitting around lamenting the choice of Bush. Go read DU. It's fun.

Team America
 

No, the debates did quite well on TV.

Sympathy for the Devil
 

Translation: I have no idea what I actually mean when I say “After 9/11 we had the sympathy and support of the entire world. Every country wanted to help. Bush took that and turned it all the way around” but it sure SOUNDS cool. Like grown up stuff!

Post 9/11, everyone’s an armchair foreign policy expert spouting this flowery stuff. Oh!

Sympathy for the Devil
 

Yeah, and it's annoying to those of us who were armchair foreign policy experts pre-9/11. Effin' newbies.

Excommunicated
 

I'm on board with that too. In fact, put them on the list of people to be shot, even before other lawbreakers like the ones we talked about last week. I am seriously and fundamentally in favor of shooting sexual predators in a society where we shoot anyone (insert "execute" for shoot" where appropriate). And those who covered this from the civil authorities should certainly be in for long prison sentences too.

Its amazing how this pendulum has swung. I suspect that the abuse of trust first came about by people having that "faith" in a person (e.g., a priest) by virtue of his position and how they were indoctrinated. At its peak, sexual predators were drawn to such positions, knowing the abuse they could inflict onto children. Nowadays, people (any Catholic parent with half a brain) starts having the conversations about inappropriate contact when the kids are 4 or 5. Sad, really.

In any case, as non-infallible matters, I look forward to the day when women can be priests and priests can be married. I have simply never seen a great argument to explain why this shouldn't be. In the meantime, its not that the Catholic church teaches or taught child-molestation, its more that Catholic would-be child molestors used the Catholic chuch. Its one of the Church's great modern shames that it allowed itself, and still continues to in some ways, to be used in this way.

Hello

Excommunicated
 

Gather together thousands of young men. Train them they they are the spiritual leaders of their nation, that they are the voices of god, that they are the benefactors and protectors and educators of our youth.

Put them in charge of the youth ministry when they get ordained. Have them counsel the youth on theer deepest, most intimate problems. Present them as someone to whom that youth can confide secret, embarrassing thoughts on any subject.

Tell those young men they can't ever marry, or have sex. Guarantee for them a life of sexual frustration.

Simmer for a bit, and then serve.

Sympathy for the Devil
 

Ignore the substance, focus on me not wanting to get into this exact fucking string with you. You're an idiot who doesn't deserve my attention.

TM

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

If I kick you in the groin, take your wallet, and distribute its contents to club, Burger and wonk, the five of us are at least as well off in the aggregate -- you got some pain, but the rest of got to watch. This hypo has more relevance to outsourcing than most Republicans want to acknowledge.

I like the way you twist Suskind's words to make them sound kooky. According to CNN, Suskind "quoted Bush as saying at a recent private luncheon that he would 'come out strong' in a second term ''with fundamental tax reform, tort reform, privatizing of Social Security.''"

About Bush's plans, DeLong writes:

• on Social Security, everyone understands--everyone--that there is a very strong faction inside the White House, probably headed by George W. Bush, that wants to roll out the partial privatization of Social Security in January. Take a look at the last Economic Report of the President, or at Ron Suskind's website.
  
  Are Rosenbaum and Halbfinger genuinely ignorant of the discussions currently going on inside the Bush administration (as reported by people like David Wessel)? Nobody who has been following the issue and is not in the tank for the Bush administration could think that Rosenbaum and Halbfinger's "...the president was quoted as telling a group of Republican donors at a private meeting last month, 'I'm going to come out strong after my swearing-in with fundamental tax reform, tort reform, privatizing of Social Security.' Mr. Schmidt said Mr. Bush had been misquoted and had never used the word 'privatization' to describe his policy..." is an accurate and informative summary of what Bush plans really are.

This is no secret. It's what people were saying when Bush was talking cryptically about his "ownership society" back at the Convention.

What I Forgot To Post For Ty Earlier . . .
 

Clearly not. You got your man, Gunga Din.