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[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
I can see clearly what I condemn. I condemn people who, for political gain, are willing to attack, and maybe stop, the progress that was expected to be slow and gradual, but has turned out to be slow and gradual. I condemn people who, for the sake of their candidate, are willing to turn public opinion against a long, hard fight, and are willing to do so on the public basis that it's been a long and hard fight.

Here again, what you "see" is attacks calculated for political gain. Look, it's no secret what my politics are, but that's because of where the Democrats stand on my issues, not vice versa. I've been in contexts where I disagreed with most of the lefties, and I can live with that, too.

If you going to start with the assumption that the other side is saying what they're saying merely for political gain, then you ought to be questioning our patriotism. If that's what you think, why be coy.

There are a lot of Dems who supported the invasion and but have recently turned against the Bush Iraq policy, and have come to think that the invasion was a mistake. Many of the bloggers I link to most frequently fall into this category, including Marshall, Drum, and Yglesias, just to name a few. You probably think that these folks have decided to change their tune because it's campaign season.

It's particularly galling to hear this crap when Bush has used the war on terror and Iraq as a political stick for two and a half years. The flip-flop on Homeland Defense and then the use of it against Dems in the 2002 elections. Landing on the carrier in a flight suit and using troops as a backdrop at every chance. The suggestion that if you criticize his policies you aid and abet the enemy -- nauseating. It goes on and on. You guys seem to have a blind eye for this stuff. There was this terrific national unity after 9/11, and by and large Bush squandered and exploited it. I don't hate him for, but "let down" doesn't begin to capture it.

Fuck you, too. This is why your choices cannot, and should not, prevail. Oh, poor us, it's taken more than a few months, and LOOK, bad guys are still fighting!, and so it's a failure.

You have to admit that things have gone poorly. Not. According. To. Plan. About exactly a year ago, Richard Perle was suggesting that by this time, there'd be a square in Baghdad named after a President Bush. So let's just say we're a little behind schedule.

If you can't see this, then I can see why you'd be perplexed by criticism of the President. If everything is peachy, the carping must be partisan.

It's not a failure. Just to remind you, National Geographic said, five to seven million murdered during your sanctions. That's what you're protesting - the ending of a holocaust. Take that position seriously? Not a chance. What won't you do to get Kerry in place?

It's not a failure yet. But it looks more and more like one every day. There is no doubt, absolutely no doubt, that we can all be glad that Hussein is gone. That is not, and never was the question. But I say this fortnightly, and you never seem to get this. You keep coming back to this "soft on Hitler" sort of crap. This is the real world.

And I just don't find that National Geographic number credible. The population of Iraq in 1997 was about 22 million. He killed a third to a fourth of the population? Um, no.

In fact, I suspect that more people have died since we started shooting than would have died had we done nothing. Of course this isn't the final answer to anything, but while we're kicking around the many deaths ignored, how about all the people we've killed? I can't point you to a number, because we didn't count, but we're talking many thousands.

Okay, we have to tone this down. I don't seriously think, fuck you Ty. I don't think you do, either. I apologize if you thought I was, or am, saying that. (Edit - wrong words - ) I apologize for saying that. . . . . . But, damn, I do feel strongly about this. I know you do too. Is there any chance for dialogue between the factions anymore?

Done. Toned down.

If you want dialogue, it starts with respecting in good faith the views on the other side. Accusing Dems of wanting our country to lose a war because it will benefit our party is Not Showing That Respect. Try again.

I don't have a horse.

That smell must be something else, then.