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Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Alexis de Toqueville visited the United States in the early 1800s and observed that Americans had a passion for liberty and equality -- two different principles sometimes in tension with each other. Liberty may lead you to democracy; equality may lead you to, for example, some sort of socialist dictatorship. A country's culture can be a complicated thing. Attempting to describe it is not necessarily racism or bigotry.

This is irrelevant. In our modern era either you think people are entitled to human rights or they are not.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop Conservatives are usually intolerant of those who throw around these terms lightly.

I have heard Israeli conservatives argue that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is OK because Arabs don't want or need democracy. The might as well be governed by us as any other dictator. Under us their standard of living is better off than any other arabs. Do you agree with their argument or do you think they are being bigoted when they say Arabs don't want or need,or are not ready for democracy.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop I don't think the author of that e-mail said Yemenis are "not capable of democracy." Maybe you should re-read it.

Don't go there. You know why you posted this email. We both know what point you were trying to make.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop Mussolini made the trains run on time. Does this mean we should prefer that the trains are late?

If that means getting rid of Mussolini - yes. When I lived in Italy the trains never ran on time. But I don't think most Italians would want to return to Mussolini.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop Perhaps it was correct about Spain and Portugal for a while longer than it was true about Germany, for example. Germany had a democracy in the 1920s, and turned away. Spain and Portugal were ruled by dictators long after the rest of Western Europe had turned to democracy. Do you deny that these things had anything to do with the culture, politics and history of these respective countries?

No. But if anyone had every argued that Spaniard, or Germans, as a people do not really want democracy or that they do not need a democracy, or that their race is not amenable to democracy then I would say they are being bigoted. The torturing of political prisoners lasted in some countrys longer than others, and that had culutural and other reasons behind it. But I would never argue that the torturing of political prisoners is the type of system that fits the Germans, or expecting them to change that policy is ridiculous because they don't want to change or they can't be expected to change.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop Many Turks would be bothered by what you said here, but I, for one, do not think it makes you a racist or a bigot.?

You find me a Turk that would not agree that he lives in a muslim nation and I will apologize to him.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop What you seem to be ignoring here is that people care about other things in life besides their form of government. A chance for democracy seems to have been missed in Russia, in part because people cared about things like the economy and Russia's place in the world order..?

What you seem to be ignoring is that Democracy is an international human right that everyone deserves. And to say that a certain people can rightfully choose another system is saying they don't deserve human rights.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop This person is actually living in Yemen, and is reporting that Yemenis don't seem to want democracy much. I would find your rebuttal of that account more persuasive if I thought you knew something about Yemen.

How do you know that I know nothing about Yemen? Did you know that part of Yemen used to be Marxist? Did you know that Saudi Arabia has intervened in that country trying to insure a monarchy. A very large part of the population fought against the monarchical institution. There are clearly alot of people in Yemen that think about politics and have an interest what form of government they have. This is one idiot, with one non scientific idiot opinion of the people of Yemen and you post it to this board as if it has some meaning.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop Please note that the e-mail came from Yemen, not Iraq. You're spending a lot of time responding to things the author did not say.

You and I know why this was posted. It was to bolster the argument that the U.S.'s attempt to spread democracy in Arabia (starting with Iraq) is naive, stupid and an exercise that will backfire on us. Trying to encourage democracy in the region is like trying to encourage human rights. And anyone that argues against encouraging human rights, in my opinion, is morally bankrupt. Thier opinion hold as much water is a bigot arguing in favor of bigotry.